Diesel GC will only meet 2007 EPA regs unless...

Guest · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:08 am

This is a VERY interesting read:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13322428

Currently, the EPA has not approved the BlueTec urea injection system. If the EPA does not approve the urea injection system, then the diesel Grand Cherokee will only be in the US Market for 2007 ONLY.

Nice picture of the diesel Liberty on page 1 of this article.

I did not realize that the EPA regs. tighten up for 2007, and then more for 2008, and even more for 2009. I though if you made it into 2007, you were golden. No wonder we can't get diesels in this country.

KJbob · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:49 am

Unfortunately, I'm starting to agree with the final paragraph of the article.

"Passenger car diesels are unlikely to grab a significant part of the U.S. market without some special price break for the fuel and breakthroughs in emission controls and manufacturing costs. Diesels also face an uphill battle against hybrids and other technologies, such as VW’s new peppy little motor."

I think in the short run (2-3 years) demand for diesels will be pretty flat. ULSD will increase the price of diesel, which in my area, is already about $.10 per gallon above unleaded regular. The increased fuel mileage of the new diesel Grand Cherokee will equate to about $500 per year (for me) less in fuel costs than the 4.7L version. This savings would help justify the increased purchase price of a diesel, but it will depend on how much the extra cost of a diesel is going to be.

Bottom line: diesels are going to be a hard sell for alot of people for the next 5 years.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:15 am

You guys need to do some more reading or rereading one. The '07 EPA reg's is for ULSD and with diesels having CCV, EGR and particulate traps. All automotive diesels including the 2.8L CRD have all the above but the particulate traps and ULSD so all that is required to have the CRD or the new V6 from MB pass '07 EPA reg's is the addition of ULSD by the fuel makers and to add the particulate traps and be certified by EPA and the MB V6 has, not sure if VM has done it yet but I think they have already. The big deal is '09 and the additive that is required to remove the final stumbling block and EPA approvale of that additive, also for '07 and big time '07 you will see a lot of current gas engine disappear because they can't meet the EPA requirements for what ever reason. The one you guys better be thinking about is '11 EPA standards, most auto engineers say they have no ability to build a stand alone gas engine to meet the standards, but can build a diesel with the additive that will pass if allowed to use the additive that is currently available. It is all about a small group of people who wants to completely do away with diesel engines in the US and elswhere for some unknown reason.

KillerRabbit · **Joined:** Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:10 pm **Posts:** 4

alljeep wrote:

This is a VERY interesting read:
Nice picture of the diesel Liberty on page 1 of this article.

I'm not sure the picture is of a diesel Liberty.
Look closely at the grill. Unless I am missing it, the fan is not visible. I suspect that it is just a standard press release Liberty picture, i.e. a gasser.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:20 am

The government needs to get it together and realize that part of the reason we are at war in Iraq and have issues with other Arab Countries stems from the dependence on foriegn oil. They need to take an aggressive position and rethink the restrictions they are putting on certain types of vehicles. They also need to get out of the oil companies grips and expand/introduce new fuels (BioDiesel, E85, ect.) and reward companies for taking the step instead of choking them off with more restrictions. I am all for cleaning up the environment but I think it can be done without excluding certain types of fuels, ect. I think that the fuel question is as important(goes hand in hand) with the fight on terror...

The "EPA" can not expect a car maker (or Jeep builder) to retool every 1 or 2 years to meet standards that are too limiting to meet on such a short timeline. 2006...ups in 2007...ups again in 2008...who can keep up :!:

Guest · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:44 am

KillerRabbit wrote:

alljeep wrote:

This is a VERY interesting read:
Nice picture of the diesel Liberty on page 1 of this article.

I'm not sure the picture is of a diesel Liberty.
Look closely at the grill. Unless I am missing it, the fan is not visible. I suspect that it is just a standard press release Liberty picture, i.e. a gasser.

Your right! And wrong wheels too! My new job as Mr. Mom by night and still workin' all day has me drowsy to say the least!

As for all these EPA regulation changes coming, man, I just never knew how rapid they were until now. Makes me wonder what will be availabe at all in the next 5-6 years...

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

What I don't understand is how any diesel powered vehicle could survive, even to this day as far as regs go. If new diesel engines with high level technology perhaps cannot meet requirements then how could the other engines in heavy duty truck applications meet such? I don't know if I'm just not that well informed, but I would guarantee that a 5.9L Cummins ISB engine's emissions would be far worse than that which would come from the 3.0L V-6 diesel...

One would have to think that BIG OIL has to have a hand in guiding the hand of the EPA in basically killing any hope for these new diesel engines for North America. Gasoline is far more profitable for them and why would America need better effencienty :roll:

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:53 pm

In Iceland, where I was born, they have set up a plan to completely be free from outside sources for energy. In ten years all vehicles will be electric or hydrogen powered. Don't know what they are going to do about planes or the fishing fleet (largest in the world) but everyday use will be NADA...Nothing...ZERO! They already use natural steam for heating. It might be possible since it is a very limited region.

Here, we need to come up with a "long term" strategy that aims us in the same direction. Incentives to the car makers...tax breaks at the pump for alternative fuels...tax relief to alternative fuel producers...tax credits for consumers...ect. In the long run the environment will benefit along with business...they should not be mutually exclusive but instead mutually inclusive.

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

Color me clueless, but, I don't understand something ... When all of the new EPA regs are phased in, what will be the impact on our CRD's? For example, I live in a state where my CRD is exempt from Emissions testing b/c it is diesel, but what would happen if I moved to a state that required emissions testing? Is DC going to supply emissions updates for our cars or are all cars produced prior to '07 exempt from the new regulations?

GreggD · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:39 pm

I'm wondering if any of the LOST members who are using 100% biodiesel have had an emissions test prior to using the biodiesel & then after they'd been using it for a while. Biodiesel has even less sulfur than the new improved (& more expensive) ULSD. For the DIY'ers who make their own, depending on the method of processing, the sulfur can be completly removed from the finished product. Depending on the source of the oil, you can have some interesting smelling exhaust.

I recently found a couple of retailers in my area that sell B20 & B100. The B20 is $2.65/gal, & the B100 is $3.19/gal. + tax. (Strangely enough, petro diesel is currently $2.79 to $2.89 per gal. :?:

Go figure.)

"I just love the smell of french fries in the morning!"

0311_DoC · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:57 pm

Well what about the big 3, Cummins, duramax and the powerstroke. How is it they can pass the new standards? What makes the CRD and VW different?

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:04 pm

I think the regs are different for full size trucks...

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:19 pm

0311_DoC wrote:

Well what about the big 3, Cummins, duramax and the powerstroke. How is it they can pass the new standards? What makes the CRD and VW different?

Nothing. They have all just recently had CCV & EGR added and have changed engine design in last couple of years to be ready for the '07 requirements now they will just add the traps, just as everyone else.

VW is changing over to common rail from Pump Duse and will be back with cars, just may be longer do to change over and get certified by EPA so it may be summer of '07 and '8 MY cars before you see them back in US. The CRD will be back in '07 if VM can keep up with market demand and if D/C made money off their sales in '05 & '06 Jeeps.

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

DarbyWalters wrote:

Here, we need to come up with a "long term" strategy that aims us in the same direction. Incentives to the car makers...tax breaks at the pump for alternative fuels...tax relief to alternative fuel producers...tax credits for consumers...ect. In the long run the environment will benefit along with business...they should not be mutually exclusive but instead mutually inclusive.

Well if the government ever starts to get the ball rolling on such a plan, I'm sure BIG OIL's money will step in and use their influence on the political side of things to flush it all down the drain. Government types really aren't concerned with the cost of fuel to the people as long as BIG OIL is filling their pockets and buying their influence.

No offense, but all that stuff you suggested would not make a dent on the real problem. America lacks sufficient refining capacity, mainly due to BIG OIL shutting down several refineries starting back in the 70's through the present to rack up fuel prices and create monstrous profits for themselves. We have an overwhelming amount of oil coming into this country as well as even more ways to become self sufficient in producing our own means of energy.

If BIG OIL (and subsiquently the government) would stop the bottleneck effect on refining oil, fuel would be most likely at least half the price it is currently. Moreso, if they would actually go through with all the tax crap they've been talking about aimed at alternative fuels E-85 and biodiesel would be far less than standard gasoline and #2 Diesel.

For example, all E-85 sold in the U.S. is supposed to be at a minimum of $0.69 cents less than standard regular fuel wherever it is sold due to tax breaks. Well in my area (in which a ton of ethanol is produced) E-85 is around $2.60 while the 87 octane stuff is $2.75-2.80 :roll:

Reggie · **Posted:** Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:45 pm

oldnavy wrote:

0311_DoC wrote:

Well what about the big 3, Cummins, duramax and the powerstroke. How is it they can pass the new standards? What makes the CRD and VW different?

Nothing. They have all just recently had CCV & EGR added and have changed engine design in last couple of years to be ready for the '07 requirements now they will just add the traps, just as everyone else.

VW is changing over to common rail from Pump Duse and will be back with cars, just may be longer do to change over and get certified by EPA so it may be summer of '07 and '8 MY cars before you see them back in US. The CRD will be back in '07 if VM can keep up with market demand and if D/C made money off their sales in '05 & '06 Jeeps.

Unless they've changed something the new version of the Cummins - which ahs been around since 2004.5 does not have CCV or EGR anywhere on it. That was a big selling point for me when I purchased one.

Reggie · **Posted:** Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:50 pm

Hero wrote:

What I don't understand is how any diesel powered vehicle could survive, even to this day as far as regs go. If new diesel engines with high level technology perhaps cannot meet requirements then how could the other engines in heavy duty truck applications meet such? I don't know if I'm just not that well informed, but I would guarantee that a 5.9L Cummins ISB engine's emissions would be far worse than that which would come from the 3.0L V-6 diesel...

One would have to think that BIG OIL has to have a hand in guiding the hand of the EPA in basically killing any hope for these new diesel engines for North America. Gasoline is far more profitable for them and why would America need better effencienty :roll:

It has nothing to do with big oil and everything to do with environmental whacko groups like the sierra club that are anti diesel and want their fuel cell technology. Remember that these are the people that insisted electric cars were the way to go. These groups will do anything they can to outlaw diesels in America. If they can prevent new diesels from being sold in California and New York then their goal is pretty well acheived.

GreggD · **Posted:** Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:03 pm

Hero wrote:

DarbyWalters wrote:

Here, we need to come up with a "long term" strategy that aims us in the same direction. Incentives to the car makers...tax breaks at the pump for alternative fuels...tax relief to alternative fuel producers...tax credits for consumers...ect. In the long run the environment will benefit along with business...they should not be mutually exclusive but instead mutually inclusive.

Well if the government ever starts to get the ball rolling on such a plan, I'm sure BIG OIL's money will step in and use their influence on the political side of things to flush it all down the drain. Government types really aren't concerned with the cost of fuel to the people as long as BIG OIL is filling their pockets and buying their influence.

No offense, but all that stuff you suggested would not make a dent on the real problem. America lacks sufficient refining capacity, mainly due to BIG OIL shutting down several refineries starting back in the 70's through the present to rack up fuel prices and create monstrous profits for themselves. We have an overwhelming amount of oil coming into this country as well as even more ways to become self sufficient in producing our own means of energy.

If BIG OIL (and subsiquently the government) would stop the bottleneck effect on refining oil, fuel would be most likely at least half the price it is currently. Moreso, if they would actually go through with all the tax crap they've been talking about aimed at alternative fuels E-85 and biodiesel would be far less than standard gasoline and #2 Diesel.

For example, all E-85 sold in the U.S. is supposed to be at a minimum of $0.69 cents less than standard regular fuel wherever it is sold due to tax breaks. Well in my area (in which a ton of ethanol is produced) E-85 is around $2.60 while the 87 octane stuff is $2.75-2.80 :roll:

BS!!!! Somebody take a "Common Sense Pill"!!!!!! It's mostly the wacko environmentalists, socialists, or Hate America First crowd, who oppose any new refineries or reopening the ones that got closed years ago. Let's not leave out their Liberal friends like Kennedy, Kerry, Al Gore, "The Drive By Media", et al, from having a part in this mess too. I don't see any of the Hollywood elites who drive these little hybrid "butt-scratchers" around town, or Sierra Club folks going down to see Fidel Castro or Vincente Fox and protesting their drilling for oil in the Gulf or just off the coast of Florida. They know that their interference won't be tolerated in Cuba or Mexico. As far as I'm concerned, all the looneys that stand in the way of the US trying to be less dependent on foreign oil can all go to blazes. It's sure funny that somebody like Laurie David will tell the rest of us we need to drive a Prius or something along those lines, then she'll hop in her trusty Gulfstream 5 to fly over to Europe to buy some shoes or some other frivilously expensive item. But then, that's typical Liberalism for you.

Speaking only for myself : No Leftist Nut-case is going to tell me what kind of car/truck/SUV I can drive. I'm free to make that choice myself.

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

Sorry if I offended anyone, my opinions are my own so take them as you will. It is a fact that the Big Oil companies have been shutting down refineries for years to spike fuel costs and are also more concerned with "exploration" for oil rather than becoming self-sufficient. If you don't agree with this then so be it...

Environmentalists serve a good cause but don't know anything about anything when it comes to fuels and whatnot. A lot of their crap about hybrid cars is silly as well, they should be more concerned with cleaner fuels which are renewable than with cleaner cars which those idiots can't seem to realize that not everyone can afford :roll:

Thats all I'm gonna say for now

GreggD · **Posted:** Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:25 am

Hero wrote:

Sorry if I offended anyone, my opinions are my own so take them as you will. It is a fact that the Big Oil companies have been shutting down refineries for years to spike fuel costs and are also more concerned with "exploration" for oil rather than becoming self-sufficient. If you don't agree with this then so be it...

Environmentalists serve a good cause but don't know anything about anything when it comes to fuels and whatnot. A lot of their crap about hybrid cars is silly as well, they should be more concerned with cleaner fuels which are renewable than with cleaner cars which those idiots can't seem to realize that not everyone can afford :roll:

Thats all I'm gonna say for now

I'm not offended by your opinion, Hero. You have the right to your opinion, just as I have the right to mine. Sometimes people have to agree to disagree. It's true that "Big Oil" did shut down refineries years ago, but that was due to "Big Government" & probably "Big Environmentalists". What folks seem to forgot is the Law of Supply & Demand. I never took Economics in school, but I do understand the principle behind it. The Saudi's, or whoever, could increase oil production 10 million barrels per day, & if we don't have any more capacity for refining than we do now, that increase won't help at all. (Gas prices stay high because of supply being short. The reason "Big Oil" reaped those profits is because we, the consumer, refused to let the shortage rule our lives & decease the amount we drive. I can't pedal a bicycle 37 miles to work, & there's no public transit/carpool/vanpool in my town, so I have to drive.) We definately do have to do the following: either get the shut down refineries open again, or build new ones. Once that's done, we need to be where we can explore for oil without the interference of the Left, their chums the Environmentalist Wackos, The Drive By Media, & Liberal Activist Judges. Until that happens, we do need to look into alternative fuel sources such as E85 & biodiesel. These are renewable, home grown alternatives. While you can't use 100% biodiesel in a gasoline engine, you can mix it with the gas at a maximum of 15%. The gas will burn more efficiently & the emissions will be lower. I know, because I've done it sucessfully.

I don't subscribe to the "Chicken Little" theory that "The Globe is warming" & it's all America's fault. More BS! Erupting volcanoes pour more pollutants, including the dreaded Greenhouse Gases, into the environment than all the cars/trucks in the world. Increased solar activity can cause the increase in global temps. It's happens every so many years, & that's a documented fact. Oil is so plentiful in places that "tar balls" come up out of the oceans & wash up on beaches. The environmental wackos screamed years ago that the Alaska Pipeline would destroy the caribou. To that I say "I don't think so Tim". I don't think that by drilling for oil in a 2000 acre area in ANWR the world will end, but the nut cases do.

It's a pity that we can't have 1 blend of fuel for use throughout the country. Go with the state that has the strictest emissions, whether it's California, New York, etc, & use that. Of course, you'd have to adjust for use in high altitude, but we'd have a lot less of the "boutique fuels" that the refineries have to produce. I'm sure that I sound silly, it's only my thoughts on the subject.

BTW, I like the avitar you have up. I have a cat that looks similar, but not quite so wild.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:09 am

In the end we have to blame ourselves...we are basically to busy, lazy, confused to do anything about the situation ( In general ). Most people, including myself, are trying to make things better for ourselves. Point: I , until lately, have not really worried or even researched BioFuels...Why...It was not on the top of my list until I got my CRD. Funny thing is I have a statewide moving company that uses Isuzu Diesel Turbo trucks. Why didn't I think about Biodiesel before...because the customer was basically funding my fuel purchase thru the price of a move. As long as I and my company were making money...I was content. On the other end of the scale, Oil Companies are doing the same. They are just moving along as always because change requires a thought process and adjustment. Althought "environmentalist" are sometimes looked at as "Wackos", they are for the most part people who have decided to make a change that requires adjustments. Just like the rest of us, they cover the spectrum of personalities and degrees of commitment.

Even tho some of us would never admit groups like GreenPeace, PETA, ect. are doing good, sometimes it takes a more radical viewpoint to draw attention to a common sense solution. Yeah, they sometimes got over the top but they do eventually bring attention to some issues we might ignore.

Diesel GC will only meet 2007 EPA regs unless...

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