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Biodiesel MPG and possible fixes???
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Author:  Special Agent [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Biodiesel MPG and possible fixes???
It seems that some on here are reporting low fuel mileage with biodiesel.

Reading up on the stuff, I discovered that bio has a higher viscosity and the engine benefits from altering the timing of the engine.

I'm no gearhead, but is there any easy way to mod or re-flash the CRD with a "Biodiesel Timing Fix" or whatever???

I'm running mostly B99 with a bit of dino to aid in starting. I'm assuming the hard starts might also be helped by this.

Appreciate any and all commentary, I only bought diesel to get off the oil, so the "easy fix" of putting more Dino in is sort of not an option for me. :D

Thanks!!!
Author:  naturist [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:32 am ]
Post subject: 
I know a great deal more about the VW TDI than I do about the CRD, having owned the latter for less than a year. Thus I will bow to more knowledgeable authority here.

In the meantime, with both my TDI and my CRD, my experience has not shown either harder starting or greatly reduced mileage using biodiesel in any blend, or for that matter B100. YMMV, of course. And yes, lower mileage should be expected by virtue of the lower energy content, about 10% less than petrodiesel.

The VW folks report more difficult starting and lower mileage, as you would expect, when the injection timing is a tad retarded, and this applies regardless of fuel. So the common wisdom is to set timing toward the advanced side of the specified range, and this is done by mechanical means, rather than by changing the ECU programming. I would guess the CRD would also yield to a similar process, but I could be wrong. It should be noted that there is no doubt that doing so requires both someone who knows what they are doing and the proper scanner, and is thus not something easily done by the guesstimation technique.

And yes, biodiesel is more viscous than petro diesel. Whether this will prove deleterious in the long run to injectors and fuel pumps awaits further experience "in the field." In the meantime, of course, everyone using greater than 5% biodiesel should be aware that DC has not approved such blends, and may refuse to warranty fueling issues on engines thus fueled.
Author:  Special Agent [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 
D/C would have to prove I was running BIO.

It's their fault for not bowing to common sense- probably a good 10% of their sales were to the alt-fuel crowd.

Besides all that, my fuel supplier told me he would repair engine damage caused by running his product as neat fuel- just like Shell or Texaco would.

So I'm not worried about damage, just performance.
Author:  RFCRD [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Special Agent wrote:
D/C would have to prove I was running BIO.

It's their fault for not bowing to common sense- probably a good 10% of their sales were to the alt-fuel crowd.

Besides all that, my fuel supplier told me he would repair engine damage caused by running his product as neat fuel- just like Shell or Texaco would.

So I'm not worried about damage, just performance.

It's not difficult to prove biodiesel usage, it runs smoother, sounds quieter, and smells different. They will test a fuel sample if you come in under warranty for a fuel system related problem, regardless of biodiesel or dinodiesel. It's actually irrelevant because they almost always blame FI problems on the fuel and won't cover this under warranty. The 5% standard come from the FI equipment manufacturer's literature and is also likely constrained by the EPA standards when the emissions certification was issued. It's my understanding this motor won't meet NOx standards running on biodiesel (but it's OK to blow black smoke from an oil contaminated CAC, try to figure that one out).
Author:  Hero [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:39 am ]
Post subject: 
RFCRD wrote:
Special Agent wrote:
D/C would have to prove I was running BIO.

It's their fault for not bowing to common sense- probably a good 10% of their sales were to the alt-fuel crowd.

Besides all that, my fuel supplier told me he would repair engine damage caused by running his product as neat fuel- just like Shell or Texaco would.

So I'm not worried about damage, just performance.

It's not difficult to prove biodiesel usage, it runs smoother, sounds quieter, and smells different. They will test a fuel sample if you come in under warranty for a fuel system related problem, regardless of biodiesel or dinodiesel. It's actually irrelevant because they almost always blame FI problems on the fuel and won't cover this under warranty. The 5% standard come from the FI equipment manufacturer's literature and is also likely constrained by the EPA standards when the emissions certification was issued. It's my understanding this motor won't meet NOx standards running on biodiesel (but it's OK to blow black smoke from an oil contaminated CAC, try to figure that one out).


Yes, it is a rather simple process to be able to determine how much BD you're running in your tank at any time. In my area (and around the country) farm diesel is sold by distributors at a discount to all farmers and is dyed red, it is illegal for anything standard vehicle to use it. If someone is suspected of running red farm diesel in lets say a CRD, a police officer has the right to use a fuel tank dipstick to check the color of the fuel.

I'd assume that someone could use one of those dipsticks to get a sample of fuel in a tank to measure the blend of BD as well. If a dealership did that and it tested over B5, sorry bub... NO warranty coverage :wink:

Quote:
The 5% standard come from the FI equipment manufacturer's literature and is also likely constrained by the EPA standards when the emissions certification was issued. It's my understanding this motor won't meet NOx standards running on biodiesel (but it's OK to blow black smoke from an oil contaminated CAC, try to figure that one out).


This is somewhat of a fishy thing, Biodiesel actually produces 10% more NOx emmissions than #2 diesel fuel but NO sulfur at all. The EPA has yet to regulate what BD blends can be sold as many places around the country are openly selling straight B100. I don't know what ULSD rates as far as NOx emmissions if it is any different than #2, if ULSD is lower though... I would almost bet that a B5 ULSD blend would be perfect 8)
Author:  naturist [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Special Agent wrote:
D/C would have to prove I was running BIO.


Yes, and as others have pointed out, that is exceptionally easy to prove. In fact, it doesn't even require the taking of a fuel sample, there is an electrode that can simply be dipped into the tank and a meter will read the concentration of bio.

Special Agent wrote:
It's their fault for not bowing to common sense- probably a good 10% of their sales were to the alt-fuel crowd.


I agree, and I am among those who bought the CRD for the purpose of running biodiesel. IMHO, the automakers and injection system suppliers are BEHIND the curve on this one by a long way! Again, IMHO, over the next decade or so that these vehicles can reasonably be expected to be on the roads, they can be expected to be required to run ever higher percentages of SOME alternative fuel or other. Their owners are going to be dragged (in some cases kicking and screaming) into it by the petroleum situation.

Special Agent wrote:
Besides all that, my fuel supplier told me he would repair engine damage caused by running his product as neat fuel- just like Shell or Texaco would.

So I'm not worried about damage, just performance.


Also agreed. Me, too. Thus my original suggestions about timing.
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
One reason I'm shying away from replacing the old backup '87 Subaru with another gas vehicle is the whole ethanol mess right now.

I call it a "mess" because this has become nothing more than a political football, becoming skewed into another way for a few to make money at the expense of many.

If push comes to shove, and something like E85 one day becomes the rule rather than the exception, many people will be forced to trade in their older gas vehicles simply because they can't be run on ethanol. Their choices will be to pay for an expensive retrofit if one can be developed, or buy a new flexfuel vehicle at a premium "hybrid" price.

While it is something of a stretch, basically if it's liquid and combustible, you can probably run a diesel on it.

For the coming potential upheavals in our energy situation on the horizon, I think I'd be a lot better positioned to ride out the storm with an older diesel vehicle. Right now though, VW's are commanding a premium price in this area, a TDI with anything less than 100K on it going for $14K and up. But you can find an 80's MB diesel, often in very good shape and with that tough-as-nails engine, from $4K and up.

Gas has been the fuel of choice for American POV's, but diesel is the fuel that our economy runs on - trucking, railroads, ships - and for that reason alone it's going to be around for some time to come.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think it is only about $1000-$1200 to convert to E85. The Government should give a tax credit to those who change and get verified by say an inspection center.

Overall, E85 and BioDiesel would solve or lessen many problems and conflicts that are pertinent to today. The big problem for us CRD owners is that until our warranties are up, DC will blame any engine problem on and fuel greater than B5...
Author:  Cowpie1 [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
You're right about the E85/Bio being a political issue. I live in the middle of "Corn Patch" USA where we have ethanol/biodiesel plants sprouting up all over the place. There is a new biodiesel plant going up 6 miles from me.

Yet.... To find a E85 pump or a Biodiesel pump with more than B2 anywhere close by is next to impossible. I had a E85 ready vehicle until I traded it in on the CRD. (more reasons for that than just fuel).

There is all kinds of Govt money (read: our money) going to support the alt fuels, but no one seems to realize that to make it a viable alternative, you have to get it into the market and sell it.

I would gladly run B11, B20 etc if I didn't have to drive 50 miles to get some. I can get B2 close by but only at 1 pump out of probably 30 diesel pumps available.

I have pleaded with different vendors to get E85 and Bio > 2% until I no longer care. I will use it if it becomes available, but am no longer a big supporter. If they want to use my corn and soybeans to make alt fuels, cool. If not, fine. I'll sell them for livestock feed.

Cliff
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
DarbyWalters wrote:
I think it is only about $1000-$1200 to convert to E85. The Government should give a tax credit to those who change and get verified by say an inspection center.

Overall, E85 and BioDiesel would solve or lessen many problems and conflicts that are pertinent to today. The big problem for us CRD owners is that until our warranties are up, DC will blame any engine problem on and fuel greater than B5...


$1000 to $1200 for some people is an entire month's takehome pay, and an unplanned expense like that would wreck their finances for a year or better.

Either way, those at the lower end of the economy are going to catch the short end of the stick. With E85, they'd have a choice of paying more to retrofit their vehicle than what it's probably worth or buying a flexfuel vehicle. Same if they push BioD, they'd have to trade their gas vehicle in for a diesel.

At least if they already owned a diesel, a lot of the options for ersatzdino wouldn't require any modifications to the vehicle.

Have you got any links to info on conversion to E85? I'd just like to know what's involved in case E85 does become the fuel de jour.
Author:  oldnavy [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
retmil46 wrote:
Have you got any links to info on conversion to E85? I'd just like to know what's involved in case E85 does become the fuel de jour.


Here is what I found on the first Google. Flex Fuel Conversion I'm still reading and checking.


Edited for comment: Don't think I would risk converting my Magnum.
Author:  Hero [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:52 am ]
Post subject: 
As far as E85 goes, I think it is a very viable replacement for gasoline or at least to reduce the excessive use of gasoline in America. The three key factors for this to happen IMHO are:

1. The U.S. Government ABSOLUTELY has to bring this into the mainstream and make it more available to the public. Also, put some serious pressure on automakers to make more (if not all) their gassers flex fuel.

2. The U.S. Government ABSOLUTELY has to create a plan to insure that heavy ethanol subsidies are not long term. Ethanol cannot withstand a long timeframe being subsidized so greatly under the government or else it will eventially show its true cost to produce which is approx. double the sale cost of the fuel currently.

3. Probably the biggest critizism of E85 is that it delivers lower fuel economy, one little known fact is that the lower MPG typically only occurs with an N/A (naturally aspriated/non turbo) engine. Saab has created a turbo engine vehicle (Google "Saab Biopower" ;)) that is E85 capable and when using E85 is has a substantial power boost and delivers the same or great MPG than when straight gasoline is used 8)

Even though typically the American brand automakers are big on putting turbos on gas engines as compared to the Europeans and Japanese, I'm sure if they did so with an E85 capable vehicle... many would take notice to the power increases and better MPG :)

Cowpie1 wrote:
You're right about the E85/Bio being a political issue. I live in the middle of "Corn Patch" USA where we have ethanol/biodiesel plants sprouting up all over the place. There is a new biodiesel plant going up 6 miles from me.

Yet.... To find a E85 pump or a Biodiesel pump with more than B2 anywhere close by is next to impossible. I had a E85 ready vehicle until I traded it in on the CRD. (more reasons for that than just fuel).

There is all kinds of Govt money (read: our money) going to support the alt fuels, but no one seems to realize that to make it a viable alternative, you have to get it into the market and sell it.

I would gladly run B11, B20 etc if I didn't have to drive 50 miles to get some. I can get B2 close by but only at 1 pump out of probably 30 diesel pumps available.

I have pleaded with different vendors to get E85 and Bio > 2% until I no longer care. I will use it if it becomes available, but am no longer a big supporter. If they want to use my corn and soybeans to make alt fuels, cool. If not, fine. I'll sell them for livestock feed.

Cliff


Hey Cliff, I know where Kellogg, IA is actually and I live in a town in Illinois in a similiar situation. There are three ethanol plants within a 100 mile radius of my town and there are a few E85 stations, athough unfortunately only a few places carry ANY biodiesel blend :(

Its really sad though as there are a TON of billboards on the highways and interstates that are promoting E85 and biodiesel... even though it is difficult to find in my general area. Many farmers are even putting up their own signs along their fields and other properties to promote the usage of "farm grown fuels."

I know there is a huge demand in my area and I (like you) have gone into many fuel stations to voice my opinions on them getting these fuels. Unfortunately few are listening :x
Author:  jeepcrd [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Cowpie1 wrote:
You're right about the E85/Bio being a political issue. I live in the middle of "Corn Patch" USA where we have ethanol/biodiesel plants sprouting up all over the place. There is a new biodiesel plant going up 6 miles from me.

Yet.... To find a E85 pump or a Biodiesel pump with more than B2 anywhere close by is next to impossible. I had a E85 ready vehicle until I traded it in on the CRD. (more reasons for that than just fuel).

There is all kinds of Govt money (read: our money) going to support the alt fuels, but no one seems to realize that to make it a viable alternative, you have to get it into the market and sell it.

I would gladly run B11, B20 etc if I didn't have to drive 50 miles to get some. I can get B2 close by but only at 1 pump out of probably 30 diesel pumps available.

I have pleaded with different vendors to get E85 and Bio > 2% until I no longer care. I will use it if it becomes available, but am no longer a big supporter. If they want to use my corn and soybeans to make alt fuels, cool. If not, fine. I'll sell them for livestock feed.

Cliff


I ran across one of these the other day in the middle of corn country but I chickened out on using it because I only have access to B2 on a regular basis and did not understand if a higher concentration would do anything to my CRD system with just a one time use.

Image

There was a B2 pump right next to it - both the same price per gallon.
Author:  oldnavy [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Should not cause any problems with your CRD as long as they are doing the mfg & retailing properly. I would love to have access to B20, best I can do is B10 and that requires a 50 mile one way trip so I usually settle for a 27 mile oneway trip for B2 fuel.
Author:  AZ CRD [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:11 am ]
Post subject: 
We're lucky in Phoenix to have B100 centrally located just off of downtown. According to biodiesel.org, there's also a yellow grease plant under construction in Tuscon. Maybe this will lead to wider availability in our area.

I couldn't be happier sending less money to the Middle East and oil companies and less emissions into the atmosphere all in a package that can get me to my land in New Mexico 26 miles off the pavement.
Author:  Special Agent [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've been running mostly b99 with a little dino diesel thrown in...

Prolly about b75+ blended...

The only problem's I've noticed is slight decrease in mpgs and harder starting.

Other than that, engine runs quiet and smooth, no problems.
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