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| Oil in the intake facts http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9970 |
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| Author: | pokey555 [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Oil in the intake facts |
Hello, I recently purchased a 06 diesel, and had oil in the intake due to a poorly functioning crank case vent. I noticed the oil in the tubing between the turbo and intercooler at 400 miles. I cleaned out the intake and scheduled an appointment with the service department, at 800 miles. First I have not problem with the service personnel or dealership they are quoting their service manual, but I found it unacceptable. According to the service manual I have no problems and the oil problem is normal. Below is a direct quote off the repair sheet. "Normal oil found, some oil is required to lubricate components, no repair necessary. Techline advised normal oil consumption is 1 quart per 1000 miles up to 50000, and 1 quart per 750 miles after 50000 miles" My point to the service personnel is that the intercooler has no moving parts and oil will actually cause it to lose efficiently. The turbo has seals on the bearings, a oil return and supply and should not leak a quart per 1000 miles, and if it does it will be making some odd "rattling" noise if that is the case. I tried to help with the diagnostic with directing them to the crank case vent and it needs an additional oil separator. So I am going to continue to drive it until the induction system is choked full of oil (should happen in ~ 1500 miles) and see what the next "excuse" is. I know about the Provent and may install it after I prove a point or reach three repair sheets for the same problem and invoke the lemon law. Sorry for the rant but 1 quart per 1000 miles is unacceptable, I mean why even change the oil, it will burn out faster than the oil change interval. Otherwise I like the Liberty, and will hold off on adding any aftermarket parts. |
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| Author: | Cowcatcher [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:31 am ] |
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Pokey, I have a trace of intake oil. In my first 3-4K miles I use no noticeable oil then at 5K it was down a quart. Then it was stable until the 6K service. Since then, 5K, no oil useage. Others have had serious oil useage but there doesn't seem to be a common cause unless it ends up being RFCRD's possible experience with wet intake air filters. You might want to check that on yours if you have been driing in heavy rain. |
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| Author: | vtdog [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:28 am ] |
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My '05 used about 3/4 quart during first few thousand miles. Since that time, essentially no oil loss. I even let last change go to 12k limit and had to add less than 4oz of oil during that time. I suspect your oil use will drop down as the miles increase. As for 1qt/1,000 mi. I believe that is standard bs from all car manufacturers. |
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| Author: | RFCRD [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil in the intake facts |
pokey555 wrote: Hello,
I recently purchased a 06 diesel, and had oil in the intake due to a poorly functioning crank case vent. I noticed the oil in the tubing between the turbo and intercooler at 400 miles. I cleaned out the intake and scheduled an appointment with the service department, at 800 miles. First I have not problem with the service personnel or dealership they are quoting their service manual, but I found it unacceptable. According to the service manual I have no problems and the oil problem is normal. Below is a direct quote off the repair sheet. "Normal oil found, some oil is required to lubricate components, no repair necessary. Techline advised normal oil consumption is 1 quart per 1000 miles up to 50000, and 1 quart per 750 miles after 50000 miles" My point to the service personnel is that the intercooler has no moving parts and oil will actually cause it to lose efficiently. The turbo has seals on the bearings, a oil return and supply and should not leak a quart per 1000 miles, and if it does it will be making some odd "rattling" noise if that is the case. I tried to help with the diagnostic with directing them to the crank case vent and it needs an additional oil separator. So I am going to continue to drive it until the induction system is choked full of oil (should happen in ~ 1500 miles) and see what the next "excuse" is. I know about the Provent and may install it after I prove a point or reach three repair sheets for the same problem and invoke the lemon law. Sorry for the rant but 1 quart per 1000 miles is unacceptable, I mean why even change the oil, it will burn out faster than the oil change interval. Otherwise I like the Liberty, and will hold off on adding any aftermarket parts. Congratulation on your CRD and welcome to oily CAC club. You know, I used the same terminology (unacceptable) when I wrote my demand letter. This is an old issue and one that has been intermittant in my case. I can tell you the 1qt/1000 mile is the standard line from DC. According to my lawyer, it won't stand in court. As for the Provent, I have shown mine to the DC factory reps that I met with last week. They understand it's purpose and made it clear that my CAC will be dry or they will get sued so they didn't object. The look on her face was truely priceless when I pulled the filter element dripping with oil to show them. |
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| Author: | Ranger1 [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:21 pm ] |
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If the dealership doesn't want to spend time on it, they'll quote you just about anything. Mine used 2 quarts in 350 miles at 20K, suddenly, with lots of oil in the turbo hose, and tremendous amounts of blue smoke. Told that the oil usage was troubling, but they could find nothing wrong, its working normally. When I asked what had been done to fix it, they said a pcm flash. When I noted that the paper work had nothing about a pcm flash, the SA (who was very polite) pulled up a list of TSB's for the CRD, read until he found one that had erroneous error codes, and added that to the paperwork and online record. Dealerships aren't making a lot of money on warranty work from DCX and on diagnostic work that doesn't end up with warrantable action, they make nothing. It's a system similar to HMO's on medical insurance - the covered benefits look great, just like a 7year 70K mile warranty, but behind the scenes DCX throttles what the dealerships can do(the motivated ones that is) in order to control warranty costs. It may be that now that DCX has pulled the plug on the CRD, they're also making it harder on dealers with warranty work reimbursement. Pure speculation on my part. I have a theory that once a certain number of repairs have been effected, STAR starts blocking anything but hard repair failures. With mine, egr, glow plugs, torque failure, 2 pcm, 2 tcm, 1 bcm flashes and a leaking rear window were fixed on a total of 6 visits within a 3 month period. Last visit, torque converter failure, a note was made that failure was due to wrong tranny fluid and they suspected DEXRON - at 19K miles. This was a total fabrication - the tranny change interval on the CRD is 62K miles for the severe duty schedule and they were the only servicing dealership. They were definitely setting up a voided warranty situation. Up to that point there was never any problem. They even thanked me for my patience when it took 17 days to repair a failed egr and glow plugs, due to STAR not releasing the egr and glow plugs until the last minute ( 10 days for the egr. 7 days to get thge glow plugs). That's why I think there is a limit to the number of warranty repairs that will be performed before they start looking for a way out. Unless DCX comes out with a CCV and tranny/tc fix, dealers are not going to spend time tyring to fix it on their own. |
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| Author: | DarbyWalters [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil in the intake facts |
pokey555 wrote: Hello,
Below is a direct quote off the repair sheet. "Normal oil found, some oil is required to lubricate components, no repair necessary. Techline advised normal oil consumption is 1 quart per 1000 miles up to 50000, and 1 quart per 750 miles after 50000 miles" Now that is a ridiculous statement. I would ask them to show where they got that information from (ask them not to bend over and show you if it was from their backside). Hell, rotary engines (the old 12As and 13Bs) had oil injection into the fuel and they didn't use that much. I would also ask them to clarify "Normal"...what is the amount exactly?...and then how did you measure how much oil is coating my system? I would bet that they do not know much about diesels and that is always going to be true until they become more prevalent. Put them on the spot,,,maybe get picks for future warranty claims! Always pays to prepare for war! |
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| Author: | RFCRD [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oil in the intake facts |
DarbyWalters wrote: pokey555 wrote: Hello, Below is a direct quote off the repair sheet. "Normal oil found, some oil is required to lubricate components, no repair necessary. Techline advised normal oil consumption is 1 quart per 1000 miles up to 50000, and 1 quart per 750 miles after 50000 miles" Now that is a ridiculous statement. I would ask them to show where they got that information from (ask them not to bend over and show you if it was from their backside). Hell, rotary engines (the old 12As and 13Bs) had oil injection into the fuel and they didn't use that much. I would also ask them to clarify "Normal"...what is the amount exactly?...and then how did you measure how much oil is coating my system? I would bet that they do not know much about diesels and that is always going to be true until they become more prevalent. Put them on the spot,,,maybe get picks for future warranty claims! Always pays to prepare for war! No joke, It's printed on the warranty order from my prevoius visit. My lawyer took one look at the repair order with that printed on it and the stack of TBS related to the tranny, told me this one will be an easy payday for him. |
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| Author: | Cowcatcher [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:33 pm ] |
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Through the years I have been told the same, 1 QT/1000 miles, was not considered excessive on gas engines by both Ford and Chevy so it is the standard, although flawed, position of the domestic manufactures and has been for many, many years. |
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| Author: | DarbyWalters [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:44 pm ] |
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Cowcatcher wrote: Through the years I have been told the same, 1 QT/1000 miles, was not considered excessive on gas engines by both Ford and Chevy so it is the standard, although flawed, position of the domestic manufactures and has been for many, many years.
I think it is standard bull@&$+ from the car makers. Engine builders laugh at statements like that...it is just not acceptable. Pulling a quart thru rings/valve guides/ect in that amount is just not good. |
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| Author: | RFCRD [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
DarbyWalters wrote: Cowcatcher wrote: Through the years I have been told the same, 1 QT/1000 miles, was not considered excessive on gas engines by both Ford and Chevy so it is the standard, although flawed, position of the domestic manufactures and has been for many, many years. I think it is standard bull@&$+ from the car makers. Engine builders laugh at statements like that...it is just not acceptable. Pulling a quart thru rings/valve guides/ect in that amount is just not good. Just love this thread. I used the term "that's bull@&$" in reference to oil consumption and CAC oiling when talking to the DC reps. They got very upset with me. |
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| Author: | DarbyWalters [ Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
BovineWasteProduct would make them happier? I would call it Tartar au Bovine if it meant they would fix it! |
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| Author: | pokey555 [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Cowcatcher wrote: Pokey,
I have a trace of intake oil. In my first 3-4K miles I use no noticeable oil then at 5K it was down a quart. Then it was stable until the 6K service. Since then, 5K, no oil useage. Others have had serious oil useage but there doesn't seem to be a common cause unless it ends up being RFCRD's possible experience with wet intake air filters. You might want to check that on yours if you have been driing in heavy rain. Dave, I may be down a half quart, which I figured was acceptable for a new engine to seat rings. My main problem was the terminology use to cover there rear. I have yet to drive in heavy rain and look forward to it. Again I am not blaming the dealer or tech; this is an engineering/quality control issue that should have been taken care of during development. I am ASSuming that someone would of checked into where the oil was going. Hell it took me maybe twenty minutes to locate the source of problem (crank case vent) and I was taking my time. "Now that is a ridiculous statement. I would ask them to show where they got that information from (ask them not to bend over and show you if it was from their backside). Hell, rotary engines (the old 12As and 13Bs) had oil injection into the fuel and they didn't use that much. I would also ask them to clarify "Normal"...what is the amount exactly?...and then how did you measure how much oil is coating my system? I would bet that they do not know much about diesels and that is always going to be true until they become more prevalent. Put them on the spot,,,maybe get picks for future warranty claims! Always pays to prepare for war! " Darby, I am definately not rolling over on this, I am not usually one to complain but this is a "big flashing neon sign" of an engineering flaw and cost management issue. At least I did not get the statement "If your are worried about buy the extended warranty". Ranger, I presented the crank case vent fix to the dealer. I gave them the info, located a spot in the engine bay for it, purchased the Provent, and only requested that they install it, document it so it will not void my warranty, and find low pressure port to return the separated oil back into the pan. I completed all engineering work for them, except for testing, and that would be in the process it they installed it. I was not out for blood, but that has now changed. I just keep thinking for a 50-60 bucks more a month I could of bought a descent diesel truck. On another unrelated note while I am wining, getting a M.E while working with a family is not fun. Rob |
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| Author: | RFCRD [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:27 am ] |
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pokey555 wrote: I was not out for blood, but that has now changed. I just keep thinking for a 50-60 bucks more a month I could of bought a descent diesel truck. On another unrelated note while I am wining, getting a M.E while working with a family is not fun.
Rob In all fairness to DC, expect this and really any diesel to use some oil until the cylinder liners polish out and the rings seat. This is delayed some by the use of very slippery syntheitc oil but still should only take a few K miles then go away. Just didn't expect to literally pour oil out of the intercooler hoses, then try to pass it off as normal and acceptable. Been around too many diesels to know better. |
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| Author: | Ranger1 [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:52 am ] |
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Quote: I was not out for blood, but that has now changed
Understandable. It's even more frustrating when you really like the CRD and eventually realize that DCX isn't supporting it, either from parts logistics or remedial repairs for engineering flaws present right from the DCX engineering department. Even worse, the fix may be nothing more than a decent CCV, a better torque converter and a new egr valve. Less than $1000 worth of parts retail and insignificant when compared to the cost of the vehicle. However, once the anger subsides, it's always better to collect the data and then utilize it in the most appropriate manner which will yield the desired results. In my case, the desired result would be for DCX to issue a recall and replace the tranny for all who have had a tc failure, and a recall for all torque converters with a quality, diesel rated torque converter, as well as a replacement intercooler for all CRD's, an effective ccv and a lifetime warranty on the egr valve and air valve control system. There are only 11,000 CRD's out there. Anything less is corporately irresponsible. If DCX cannot do this, they do not deserve to succeed in the diesel marketplace. Our money was legitimate - the product we purchased from them should not be carelessly dismissed or subjected to an endless stream of ineffective TSB's which do not resolve the issue. One way I think to achieve this is to join the poll for the letter to Jeff Bell of DCX/Jeep, with as much data as we can collect on the Internet about egr failures, torque converters, intercoolers with oil and so on. If DCX doesn't respond to that, I suggest we word an online article detailing the problems CRD owners are experiencing, accurately, and without malice. Post it to online editors and online automotive blogs everywhere, possibly at the same time DCX is ready to launch their new Grand Cherokee diesel line of vehicles. This is unfortunately often the only way to get attention required. DCX has had nearly 2 years to address the problem and their response has been to discontinue the vehicle. The problems still exist. With the CRD now discontinued, it is very unlikely that the many failures CRD owners are experiencing is even being noted at DCX at a level high enough to remediate the problem. Once a project is cancelled, budgets are gone, people and resources are reassigned and the CRD's problems are yesterdays news, left to the dealerships to deal with, and we know how many of them are doing on that front. Dealerships are not responsible for the CRD's engineering/budget control mistakes. Rather than venting and then letting the matter die, collect as much accurate data as you can and then work with Internet sites such as these to collect and aggregate that data. Use of the data, truthfully and accurately will be noticed if enough online blogs and publications start bringing attention to the data. To be taken seriously, the data must be accurate and well written. Possibly some CRD owners who are reporters may have suggestions on how to write and present the facts in a professional and accurate fashion. I think with the distributed power of the Internet, we can collectively be far more successful than individually fighting with the dealerships and DCX. A few minutes a week from each affected CRD owner may be all that it takes to ultimately get the issue to the right person. |
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| Author: | Cowpie1 [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:30 pm ] |
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A little perspective on oil usage: My business vehicle is a 2006 Volvo Truck. It has a Cummins ISX 475HP. I uses about 2 quarts of oil in 30,000 miles. This was the same for my last truck even after it went over 1 million miles. This talk by dealerships about 1 qt in 1000 miles is BS. A small amount of oil usage is expected and shows that all of the motor is getting lubrication. But any more than a qt between CRD recomended oil changes is obscene. On a 1960 engine, maybe. But with the close tolerences of todays motors, not hardly. No dealer is going to be able to toss that line of crap at me. I have too many years with farm equipment, heavy trucks, and my personal vehicles to buy that line. If the VM motor in the CRD is using a quart at 1000m, then there is a problem. VM (Detroit Diesel) makes pretty good engines. The CCV not withstanding. Cliff |
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| Author: | RFCRD [ Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:11 pm ] |
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Cowpie1 wrote: A little perspective on oil usage: My business vehicle is a 2006 Volvo Truck. It has a Cummins ISX 475HP. I uses about 2 quarts of oil in 30,000 miles. This was the same for my last truck even after it went over 1 million miles.
This talk by dealerships about 1 qt in 1000 miles is BS. A small amount of oil usage is expected and shows that all of the motor is getting lubrication. But any more than a qt between CRD recomended oil changes is obscene. On a 1960 engine, maybe. But with the close tolerences of todays motors, not hardly. No dealer is going to be able to toss that line of crap at me. I have too many years with farm equipment, heavy trucks, and my personal vehicles to buy that line. If the VM motor in the CRD is using a quart at 1000m, then there is a problem. VM (Detroit Diesel) makes pretty good engines. The CCV not withstanding. Cliff I don't buy it either. I had oil puking 2-cycle Detroit Diesels, relics of the '70's & '80's that used less oil (adjusted for the size difference). Call me nuts but I'm running a Provent, collecting the CCV oil, and can see the quantity recovered. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what I have seen in the CAC hoses and replaced through top-offs. It's passing the turbo seals when it happens and I'm 99% certain it from the air filter getting wet driving in the rain. |
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| Author: | pokey555 [ Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:58 am ] |
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Ranger, I completely agree with data collection and unbiased reporting approach. My next action is to drive 1500 miles, return the dealer and have them document the findings. Ask them to quantitatively define “excessive amount of oil” in the intake pluming. Install a Provent. Also look into installing an oil separator on the exit of the turbo, light of RFCRD comments about the wet air filter, and document results. In concern with the reporting issue we are going to need a post or contact to compile quantitative data (values; ie 1 pint of oil in the turbo to the intercooler tubing in xx miles; 3 egr's in xx miles and x months, torque converter issue same format as egr's and any other problems, unlike my previous posts) For the report or paper to have value, statistical data is necessary, with empathizes on if the problems are either isolated or trends. Another great point, if possible is to make a sequence of failures, meaning if this "part" fails it will cause this "part" to fail within xxx time frame. Essentially creating or recreating a failure analysis for each statically backed problem part. Hell the issues posted on the board may be the exception instead of the norm, but right now it is just a WAG. I have been thinking about RFCRD's wet air filter theory, to minimize the chances of saturating the filter with water, a new port could be cut adjacent to the fender and block off the factory port. Or possibly place a conical filter with a closed end inside the stock box and drill drain holes in the bottom of the box. I was going to modify the suspension on the KJ, but now I am just going to fix my as delivered problems and take the wait and see approach. Rob |
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