Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder

Renegade03 · **Joined:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:08 am **Posts:** 17

Let me preface my comments here by stating that it is not my intention to denigrate Jeep or the '08 Liberty, or insult or discourage any owners of current model Libertys. These comments are my opinion and nothing more. If your opinion differs from mine, I accept and respect that. You are entitled to an opinion that differs from mine as much as I am entitled to my opinion.

I have seen the new Libertys on the road. Although I think it more closely share the Jeep family resemblance, than does the first generation Liberty; I feel that the design is less elegant. I do not mean that in the sense of luxury, but in the sense of sophistication of the surface development of the body. I'm not going to try to tell anyone that the original Lib was beautiful, but the complex body design provides pleasing surfaces to look at and touch. The light plays off of these surfaces in an interesting manner, particularly under lighting conditions such as when the sun in low on the horizon. The Cactus Green paint almost glows under these lighting conditions and as you move around the vehicle the paint can appear to be dark green to golden.

The second generation has large flat surfaces, sharp edges, and simple forms. It doesn't catch the light. It doesn't draw your eye to its surfaces. It is not something you desire to necessarily touch. I find (remember, this is just one person's opinion) it to be bland.

I am also bothered by its sharing of the Dodge Nitro platform. This is unprecedented in Jeep history and I think that it is a slippery slope. Of all of the Chrysler brands, Jeep deserves to stand alone. The very reason that Chrysler bought Jeep (other than financial reasons) is that Jeep was unique in the history of automobiles. Now it appears that Jeep wants to be all things to all people (less than unique) and that attitude is diluting Jeep. The new Liberty is just such a move.

While the first generation Liberty resembles a tool for traversing the terrain, the second generation resembles the box in which the vehicle arrived.

I welcome responses, but request that you be as respectful as I feel that I have been.

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:50 am

I respect your opinion but the second to last sentence in my eyes is wrong....as is natural with most cars, they are upgraded and hence better technolgy....comparing a stock 07 kj and a stock 08 kk on the trial is like night and day.. the esp ands tcs system has turned it in to a beast on the trail... I have now gone out with a 07 and a 03 kj and have been told by both owners that the kk was a superior vehicle.

also in regards to the comment on paint. if you look at Sartori's silver kk, he has a few different pics that show how the light plays with the meta flake paints.

Don't take this as being disrespectful to you opinion but this is my opinion.
Nathan

Renegade03 · **Joined:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:08 am **Posts:** 17

Thanks for the response. I in no way intended my comments to compare the actual technology or capabilities of the two vehicles. I would expect the second generation to be more advanced. I was strictly expressing my views on the aesthetic qualities of the bodies of the two vehicles.

ryno · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:42 am

Perhaps you're just a superior driver, Nathan. :wink:

As far as the KK being superior, it might have a lot to do with your tires. Tires make all the difference because they are your only contact with the road and the trail. Even with all the technological benefits of the KK, it still gives up some off-road capability to the KJ because of its smaller approach and departure angles. In my opinion, the best skid plate for the KK is the tow package. :lol:

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:57 am

06 & 07 KJs have ESP, TC, BA, ROM, ABS...

I do think that sharing the design of the KK with the Nitro as well as the Compass/Patriot being on a Mitsubishi Lancer platform could be a slippery slope...we will see.

mcd001 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:39 pm

I can certainly appreciate 1st Gen Liberty owners not finding the new KKs to live up to their expectations in styling. I'm on the exact opposite side of the fence. I never considered a KJ because I hated the styling. It seemed oddly proportioned, the hood height looked too low, the spare tire on the back with the bumber cut-out, etc. It just wasn't for me.

That all changed with the KK. If the 2008 models didn't change style to what it is now, I wouldn't be here on this forum typing this because I would have bought something else.

One thing I find interesting are the many comments I've heard/read about the boxy shape of the KK vs. the KJ, and the lack of subtle details in KK styling. I find the exact opposite to be true. Every day I think I notice something else about the KK that just makes me think, "darn, they really spent some time designing this thing." I love the curved sides of the hood, reminiscent of the Wrangler hood. The wide fender flares. The clean rear hatch. The side markers and blinkers. I love every detail.

Some people will say that it is a boxy, dumbed-down design compared to the KJ, but I really think it's a more refined, well-thought-out and executed design, with a nice mix of old and new, smooth and sharp.

Jeepman56 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:53 pm

Being a first time owner of a new vehicle, anything 4x4, and Jeep I take a tremendous amount of pride in my KJ. I feel that this was the main reason that I was so apprehensive and judgemental of the KK. Upon further research and acclimation to them, seeing them on the roads etc., I have really warmed up to them. I think they look more rugged and utilitarian than the KJ. Yes, not as aesthetically beautiful, but that isn't why I bought a Jeep in the first place. I have to agree with mcd001 when he says,

mcd001 wrote:

One thing I find interesting are the many comments I've heard/read about the boxy shape of the KK vs. the KJ, and the lack of subtle details in KK styling. I find the exact opposite to be true.

A few details of the KK bother me (soare tire location) but they could be changed or fixed which would make it even more your own Jeep. Just my $.02

KJ4ME · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:56 pm

as the owner of a 2007 kj i love the new kk's design. i think they kinda go overboard on the chrome on limited trim but i love the boxy shapes and upright stance. it seems more rugged. while i do like the rounded "circular-spherical" design approach of the kj's, that was a modern design back in 2002 and i feel with the trend being boxy is in, there was no way for jeep to make the new kk modern with that same design approach. i love the '08 kk's and will totally trade up to one when the time is right! i think the new '08 kk will beat out the kj as far popularity and i think more aftermarket parts will reach the kk than htey did the kj, however only time will tell if thats true.

mcd001 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:35 pm

KJ4ME wrote:

...i think they kinda go overboard on the chrome on limited trim but i love the boxy shapes and upright stance...

I agree. I definitely prefer the less chrome on the Sport. I also love the black powder coat wheels on the Sport, and I can't believe that they aren't an option on the Limited.

dog_party · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:14 pm

The more KKs I see on the road, the more I like them. Good looking little trucks. I'm not going to trade because I'll drive my diesel until one of us dies, but I might think about adding a KK to the fleet if they put a diesel in it.

I would prefer a chrome-less truck like the Sport, but I thought you couldn't get the fold-flat front passenger seat on it. Then I built a couple online and I realized you can get the Popular Eq Group on a Sport and you get the Front Passenger fold-flat seat (man I with I had THAT in my KJ). You can upgrade and get most everything on the Sport that comes standard on the Limited...

...but you can't get the Premium Group stuff, which would really be nice. I know, I know, "It's a Jeep and we're all supposed to be sitting on an old milk crate, not power leather heated seats." But the power leather heated seats in my KJ sure make my wife happy. And...how does that old saying go? "Happy Wife = Happy Life." Besides, they've added the Memory Package to the KK options which control the power seat settings, radio settings, and mirror settings. And that's just cool! Oh, and remote start and automatic-adjusting headlamps. And don't forget the automatic temperature control that's now available.

All that being said...the only thing I REALLY don't like about the truck is the spare tire location. That and the absence of a diesel.

BTW - I didn't see powder-coated wheels as an option on the website. Where'd you find those? Sounds cool!

mcd001 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:32 pm

dog_party wrote:

...I didn't see powder-coated wheels as an option on the website. Where'd you find those? Sounds cool!

They're the standard Sport wheels. Check out the thread about the rear spare tire and the photo of the black KK. That has the powdersoated wheels. It's just the inner parts of the wheel that are coated, but it looks slick.

Renegade03 · **Joined:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:08 am **Posts:** 17

Okay, I'm assuming that the spare tire is under the vehicle because I don't see it anywhere. I know that many of you dislike the spare on the rear door of the KJ and that having it located there necessitated a swinging door as opposed to a lift gate; but let me tell you this. The first (and every) time you need to crawl under your vehicle on a rain soaked highway, or on the trail, to get your spare, you are going to wish that it was hanging right out there on the rear of the vehicle. The spare on my wife's Grand Carivan is under the center console between the driver and passenger seats to allow for the stow and go seating, and it is a son-of-a-b#$%^ to get it out and back in. Additionally, it will be filthy when it comes time to use it.

mcd001 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:37 pm

Renegade03 wrote:

Okay, I'm assuming that the spare tire is under the vehicle because I don't see it anywhere. I know that many of you dislike the spare on the rear door of the KJ and that having it located there necessitated a swinging door as opposed to a lift gate; but let me tell you this. The first (and every) time you need to crawl under your vehicle on a rain soaked highway, or on the trail, to get your spare, you are going to wish that it was hanging right out there on the rear of the vehicle...

No I won't because there is a crank in the rear cargo area that lowers the spare to the ground. No crawling underneath the KK necessary.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:02 am

This is kinda like the Round Headlight Wrangler vs the Square Headlight Wrangler. The battle still rages on to this day...All I have to say about the whole Round vs Square is that neither makes the Jeep better offroad than the other. The same will probably be true about the KJ vs KK...they will perform based on driving and equipment offroad and the "shape" will have very little to do with it.

I guess in a way a change was a good thing. A friendly rivalry can be a positive shot in the arm. Some of the important things to remember are there are just as many similarities as differences. IFS, SRA, 3.7L, Small Wheel Openings, Jeep Warranties ect.

KJ4ME · **Posted:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:20 am

its true, looks dont have anything to do with off road ability. but if people think its ugly, they wont buy it. the same thing applies if people think the design breaks jeep tradition. the way a vehicle looks is much more important these days... the hard core "dont worry about frills just functionality" crowd is shrinking and people want looks as well as other features! just a fantastic 4wd heritage wont cut it anymore. i know my parents wont even look at a vehicle if it dosent have auto climate control or navigation

Renegade03 · **Joined:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:08 am **Posts:** 17

I understand that there is a crank that lowers the spare to the ground; however, you still need to get on your hands and knees, reach under the vehicle and detach the spare from the device (cable) that lowers it. Our Caravan is the same. Believe me, getting the spare is a pain. It may seem like a perfectly good solution when you're in your garage; but when you're on the side of a highway, with semis blasting past, being on all fours on the pavement is no fun.

My '93 Grand Cherokee had the full size spare in the cargo area. A friend of mine had a Ford Explorer. One of the reasons that he didn't like the Cherokee was due to the fact that the spare took up room in the cargo area. And he was correct. But the one time that I had to change a tire on the side of the road, I was glad that it was easily accessible. His spare tire, being outside the vehicle, was stolen. Then he complained about the difficulty in storing the new one under the rear of the car. My complaint about the spare on the rear door is that it forced Jeep to equip the vehicle with a swinging door instead of a lift gate. Otherwise they would have had to use that swing away spare tire mount like past Trailblazers.

Incidently, you can lock the spare on the KJ to the vehicle.

I agree that this is a discussion without a concensus or an end. I just wanted to gauge sentiment among the Liberty owners. I'm happy that Jeep chose to continue the Liberty. Hopefully there will be many future generations and Liberty will have the long and loyal following that the Wrangler and Cherokee have.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:34 pm

I think a better comparison would be with the old XJ's. The KK would have been a perfect transition from the XJ and caused much less fuss than the KJ did. I love the KJ platform and i can compare it to the XJ because I have one of those that I also love. I Love boxy vehicles (same reason I have a gas miser Scion XB for road running) and if the KK had come out in 02 and people like skrracing and Darby got a hold of them and started wheeling the crap out of them, and showing them off online, I am sure I would have bought one over the competition.

Since owning the KJ though, I have to say I wouldn't want my spare anywhere under or inside the vehicle. It is just too easy to get to on the back and I like the "rugged" look it adds just the same way I like an XJ w/ the factory swing away on back. I like the round lines of the KJ and the fact that it IS different from other Jeeps. I also like that it was a controversial vehicle and caused a stir. I pretty much always cheer for the underdog so knowing that a lot of other Jeep owners frowned upon it helped me to chose it. :twisted:

Anyhow, i love Jeeps of every kind, some more than others but I still love them all. I do hope they move closer to their basic tough heritage in design and engineering to a point but having new and cool gadgets is always fun too.

just my HO & .02

mcd001 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Out of curiosity, does the KJ rear window hatch open while the lower door is closed? In otherwords, can the window open outward past the spare?

Jeger · **Posted:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:27 pm

mcd001 wrote:

Out of curiosity, does the KJ rear window hatch open while the lower door is closed? In otherwords, can the window open outward past the spare?

yes

Dutchy · **Posted:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:47 pm

Yep, you are right, the body work on the kj has more curves and lines, this is more costly to make, the kk is totally straight to safe costs.
For example, the hood on a KJ is curvey and complicated, the hood on the KK is straight and simple.
I personally prefer curves on my car, straight lines is something no good looking car has ever had, you never hear anybody say "hey look at the straight lines of my Corvette/Porsche 911/E-type"
If I see the KK and the KJ together I have trouble not to think the KK is the fat younger sister with specs, I just thing a Jeep should have round headlights and a spare on the back but that's just my personal opinion and you don’t have to agree with that.

Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder

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