KK Test Drive

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

DarbyWalters wrote:

I have seen so many armrest mounted Power Window Switches and the base they sit in get mis-shaped after a time. They are also in the way if you have to get to the window unit to fix. I find it funny that "Car Reviewers" think it is such a big deal they have to mention it.

It is a big deal. They went with something unintuitive and non-standard. Its irritating as hell. By far its my number one annoyance about the vehicle, and nearly every passenger I have comments on how stupid that design decision was.

No idea why door/armrest mounted switches would have inherant problems. They always worked fine on all of my previous vehicles. Never got misshapen.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:25 am

Yep, that is the first thing I look for when I buy a vehicle...well second, First is which side the fuel filler is... :lol:

. The rule is "Door mounted window switches, passenger side fuel door"..."Center mounted window switches, driver side fuel door". :roll:

snowsport · **Joined:** Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:52 pm **Posts:** 1211

It took me about four minutes to get used to the idea of console mounted window switches when I first got the KJ. I like them there. It actually makes more sense to me to have them there because then all of the cabin controls (heat, stereo, windows, etc) can be reached with one hand while steering with the left.

I find that many of the "experts" who reviewed the KJ had mainly nit-picky things to complain about. I remember one reviewer who found that the spare tire blocked too much of the rear view...but of course they are being paid to be controversial, so that's what you get as a result.

Now, the fuel door, on the other hand...that dang well better be on the driver's side! :lol:

Why would you want to walk all the way around your vehicle to fill 'er up?

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:55 pm

I haver to agree with the fuel door....out of all my vehicles, only my moms 88 gmc suburban fills on the right...it kinda funny to watch me when i go to the gas station to fill up because i all ways have to turn around

_UnLiMiTeD_ · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:09 pm

lol thank god im not alone digger. I do that 9 outa 10 times i go the the gas station because im not used to it being on the driver side.

As for the center console mounted controls. I love it, my beretta had it too. My mom intrepid has them on the arm rest and i hate it. I usually have my hand rested on the center console so i barely have to move to use the controls.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:56 pm

Had a PU Truck with dual tanks...one on each side...now that was annoying :oops:

Black_Dog · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:16 am

Reflex wrote:

One question though: Did they make the glove compartment any more useful and did they add anymore storage compartments? There is little space to put anything in the KJ aside from the back...

The glove box possibly a tiny bit better. Even so, it’s far from good.

Jeep increased the storage space in the bin over the tranny tunnel. Flip up the elbow rest and you are greeted by a shallow removable tray. Pull that out and you have a fairly deep cavern for storing junk.

Useful space, but I’ve got to say that the whole thing with the removable tray looks and feels really cheap and unfinished. I know that’s not a big consideration among hardcore Jeep fans, but compared to Cute-Ute competitors it is brazenly crude. It’s refinement miscues like this that drives soccer moms away from the Liberty toward CR-Vs and RAV4s. I really wish Jeep (and Chrysler in general) would get their head in the game. If not, five years from now there isn’t going to be a Chrysler Corp.

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:21 am

DarbyWalters wrote:

Had a PU Truck with dual tanks...one on each side...now that was annoying :oops:

Remember when the hoses at the station used to be long enough to reach either side?. I have seen some so short now that I think they wouldnt reach to the center of the 64 Galaxie I used to drive.

I'm torn....in a way I really hope the KK does well in sales just for jeeps well being. On the other hand I sorta want it to crash and burn in hopes that it will teach them a lesson. For a while it was growing on me..but now that I have seen them in real life I realize it must have been some sort of fungus.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:25 pm

I love the window switches being in the center(02-04). I like it b/c its different and no one has a clue how to put my windows down. Its handy since my hand is always in that area and its cool to roll up and put the window down with my left hand on the steering wheel.

I also hope the KK does good. I like to see success among Jeep and Chrysler.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:33 pm

Black_Dog wrote:

Reflex wrote:

One question though: Did they make the glove compartment any more useful and did they add anymore storage compartments? There is little space to put anything in the KJ aside from the back...

The glove box possibly a tiny bit better. Even so, it’s far from good.

Jeep increased the storage space in the bin over the tranny tunnel. Flip up the elbow rest and you are greeted by a shallow removable tray. Pull that out and you have a fairly deep cavern for storing junk.

Useful space, but I’ve got to say that the whole thing with the removable tray looks and feels really cheap and unfinished. I know that’s not a big consideration among hardcore Jeep fans, but compared to Cute-Ute competitors it is brazenly crude. It’s refinement miscues like this that drives soccer moms away from the Liberty toward CR-Vs and RAV4s. I really wish Jeep (and Chrysler in general) would get their head in the game. If not, five years from now there isn’t going to be a Chrysler Corp.

Just my opinon but if your worried about the glove box,looks of storage spaces,and where the window switches are---------------------You shouldn't be driving a Jeep.

Give me any Jeep with solid axles,lockers F/R,a real t-case shifter,no A/C,no ABS/ESP,disc's all around,NO CARPET(rubber mat,or even better a lined floor),manual windows/locks,crappy bucket seats w/4 point harness,and nothing else(even a radio) and I'd be tickled pink

!

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

tjkj2002 wrote:

Black_Dog wrote:

Reflex wrote:

One question though: Did they make the glove compartment any more useful and did they add anymore storage compartments? There is little space to put anything in the KJ aside from the back...

The glove box possibly a tiny bit better. Even so, it’s far from good.

Jeep increased the storage space in the bin over the tranny tunnel. Flip up the elbow rest and you are greeted by a shallow removable tray. Pull that out and you have a fairly deep cavern for storing junk.

Useful space, but I’ve got to say that the whole thing with the removable tray looks and feels really cheap and unfinished. I know that’s not a big consideration among hardcore Jeep fans, but compared to Cute-Ute competitors it is brazenly crude. It’s refinement miscues like this that drives soccer moms away from the Liberty toward CR-Vs and RAV4s. I really wish Jeep (and Chrysler in general) would get their head in the game. If not, five years from now there isn’t going to be a Chrysler Corp.

Just my opinon but if your worried about the glove box,looks of storage spaces,and where the window switches are---------------------You shouldn't be driving a Jeep.

Give me any Jeep with solid axles,lockers F/R,a real t-case shifter,no A/C,no ABS/ESP,disc's all around,NO CARPET(rubber mat,or even better a lined floor),manual windows/locks,crappy bucket seats w/4 point harness,and nothing else(even a radio) and I'd be tickled pink

!

Its called a 'Wrangler', look it up.

Darby - Interior convenience matters. Yes some people adapt fine, but people who own multiple cars have more of an issue. And its never convenient for passengers. No, its not a "I won't buy it" type of issue, but that does not mean it should not have been rectified. Enough issues and the vehicle ceases to be desireable. Read that review that was posted of the Wrangler vs. Land Rover Defender that was linked here last week, that was kind of their point, enough little things were wrong with the LR that it just wasn't as nice of an experience comparatively.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:03 pm

Quote:

Its called a 'Wrangler', look it up.

Nope it's called my KJ in a few months(granted I'll still have power window,A/C,and the radio).Wranglers are to easy,my 12 year old sister can build a mean TJ,I want a challenge.

I guess some of use don't care about how many cupholders it's got,I'd take chrome-moly axles any day over useable glovebox,leather,sunroof,I-pod hook up,where the heck the window switches are,a evic,and fit in' finish.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

tjkj2002 wrote:

Quote:

Its called a 'Wrangler', look it up.

Nope it's called my KJ in a few months(granted I'll still have power window,A/C,and the radio).Wranglers are to easy,my 12 year old sister can build a mean TJ,I want a challenge.

I guess some of use don't care about how many cupholders it's got,I'd take chrome-moly axles any day over useable glovebox,leather,sunroof,I-pod hook up,where the heck the window switches are,a evic,and fit in' finish.

I'm not criticizing this approach at all, I'm just saying that your not the target market, and for the target market its important that they do things right. If they only worried about people like you, then we'd just have a more expensive version of the Wrangler, and I wouldn't see Liberty's all over the streets of Seattle. Nothing wrong with modding one into an ultimate offroad machine, but stock it should still have the creature comforts that the RAV4 crowd expects.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:08 pm

And you still hold to the idea that center mounted power window controls are a reason to not buy a KJ and they are a problem for everyone...to each his own. On the other hand I wonder where you get your info on the "target market". Obviously many of us are the "target market". A tuff mid-sized SUV with offroad capabilities. OOPS, that is me! They also have the Limited 4x2 Mid-Sized SUV for another part of the target market. Then add a Diesel and they get me to buy again...two bulleyes IMHO.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

DarbyWalters wrote:

And you still hold to the idea that center mounted power window controls are a reason to not buy a KJ and they are a problem for everyone...to each his own. On the other hand I wonder where you get your info on the "target market". Obviously many of us are the "target market". A tuff mid-sized SUV with offroad capabilities. OOPS, that is me! They also have the Limited 4x2 Mid-Sized SUV for another part of the target market. Then add a Diesel and they get me to buy again...two bulleyes IMHO.

Taking my argument to its extreme does not mean its what I am saying. My point is not that someone will refuse to buy it for that reason alone, after all I own one and I consider it a major usability flaw. By the same token, changing something from an accepted norm usually requires justification, and I have yet to see any real justification for this change(obviously Chrysler did not either, since they changed it back). It does not add any functionality, it messes with usability unnecessarily, and it allows less space for the center features.

As for the target market, as pointed out by multiple reviews and articles, only around 5% of SUV owners take them off road. I'd guess the number is higher for the Jeep crowd, but there is no way it approaches more than 50% unless we are talking the Wrangler. So yes, by definition, the off roaders are NOT the target market, the Liberty is a compromise vehicle for the person who wants decent off roading but still uses it as a daily driver. I think your fooling yourself if you think that off roaders are the primary market.

BTW, if you want more space, they just released the Wrangler Unlimited. That satisfies the needs of people who want the best of both worlds. Too bad it dosen't have a diesel option...

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:07 pm

Quote:

As for the target market, as pointed out by multiple reviews and articles, only around 5% of SUV owners take them off road. I'd guess the number is higher for the Jeep crowd, but there is no way it approaches more than 50% unless we are talking the Wrangler. So yes, by definition, the off roaders are NOT the target market, the Liberty is a compromise vehicle for the person who wants decent off roading but still uses it as a daily driver. I think your fooling yourself if you think that off roaders are the primary market.

I bet if they catered to the real Jeep crowd they would sell alot more instead of catering to the ______(fill in the blank,hint starts with a "Y" and ends in a "Y") crowd.If they badged the 4 door JK a Liberty all the hard core Jeepers would say "hey a real Jeep for once" or "At least it has solids axles",instead of "Look at that girlie car with a Jeep badge".Just remember that after the SFA on my KJ it will still be a DD,didn't build it not to drive it

.

I'm real sorry but if you are really that anal about something as small as where the window switches are you got some real issues and shouldn't be driving anyway,again my opinion.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:17 pm

The 5% offroad number goes for all 4x4s in general. You are missing the point...the market for the 4x4 Jeeps is the "ability" to tackle either offroad or hazzardous onroad...that is why I have been sure to get Selec-Trac with both my KJs. The "target market" is anyone willing to plop down their hard earned money on a Jeep...because of what it represents whether you use that ability or not.

Target Market?

...families with kids...they would get a minivan in most instances or Suburbans Type vehicles

...yuppies...Land Rover, BMWs ect.

...Luxory...Mercedes ect.

...mileage...I don't think I have to point out the other cars aimed at them

...towing...better suited in general for bigger trucks

So what are the types who buy Jeeps?

...active 25+ year olds...probably a Jeep target...might use the 4x4 a couple times a year for camping, kayaking, ect

...college bound 18-25...parents won't get them a Wrangler so KJ is it for the price

...HARD CORE...for the most part Wrangler buyers...unless they need a dual purpose type 4x4

...Jeep still does have the reputation (even if watered down with some models) of building multi-purpose vehicles that can get you to work and to play...Female or Male...doesn't matter

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

I'll have to remember this the next time I take notice of the dozen or so KJ's I see on my way to and from work each day without a spec of mud on them looking like they just rolled off the lot. Yup, real hard core off roading crowd, ya know?

You guys are really funny. Just because something is capable of something does not mean that is what most people use it for. If that were the case I surely wouldn't see so many Dodge Ram Cummin's tooling around as daily drivers with no load in the back. And what about all those sports cars that have no track to run on? Heck, you just agreed that most 4x4's are never taken off road. What the heck makes you believe that inherantly due to the 'Jeep' badge suddenly its owners are going to buck the trend? Got any empiracle data to back that up?

I didn't think so.

As for the window switches, I do test engineering for a living. I know bad design when I see it, and as I said, its not just my opinion. Obviously Chrysler agrees with me on this since the KK fixed the defect.

Green Renegade · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:40 pm

I think what they're trying to say is that people buy Jeeps because they are good offroad. Even if they don't take them offroad. If those Cummins Rams had lousy payload and pulling capability, they wouldn't sell, even to people who never haul anything. If those fancy sports cars had lousy 0-60 times, and handled like busses, they wouldn't sell, even to people who never go near a race track. Similarly, if you build a Jeep that is lousy offroad, it's not gonna sell, because that is why you buy a jeep.

tommudd · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:49 pm

Interesting posts here for sure, I know that some people like things right at their fingertips but I think they are not bright enough to change when they go from vehicle to vehicle. I like basic machines , dont even like power windows that much but hard to order with out. As far as driving different things , back a few years ago I took a vacation from 9 to 5 office job and drove a Peterbilt dragging a flatbed all over, Would drive it 3-5000 miles a week come home jump on the Harley or in the Cherokee and never once thought now where is the window switch or anything it was automatic for me. back when I worked in a dealership would drive 8/10 cars a day never looked just knew so saying I will not buy due to the switches being here or there to me is just plain stupid!

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