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KK Test Drive
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Author:  Black_Dog [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  KK Test Drive
Last night, I submitted my review of the KK to TheTruthAboutCars.com. I expect that it will probably get published sometime next week. I’ll post a link when it does. This was a road test. I look forward to putting a KK through its paces off-road and writing it up later.

Let me warn you, I wasn’t really all that impressed so the review is mostly negative. Here’s why:

    1. The biggest disappointment is the handling. Jeep sought to improve the harsh ride quality, and they have. You can now gracefully glide over speed bumps without all of the bucking and lurching. But they over-loosened the suspension making it much less controllable at highway speeds. It flips, flops, reverberates, leans, pitches, rolls, flutters, bounces, rebounds, dives, and sways like Lindsay Lohan at 2 am. In other words, it drives just like the awful Nitro. I suspect Dodge’s influence in the suspension tuning, which I consider a very bad thing.

    2. No improvement to engine or driveline. Not that I have a problem with either. Some might say leave well enough alone, but where’s the progress? The competition has gotten better so why hasn’t Jeep?

    3. The front seats are better contoured and more comfortable. The rear seats have about 1.5” more leg room. And in the back there is a handy storage compartment with a reversible top (carpet on one side, plastic on the other). Otherwise, the interior isn’t any better – just slightly different looking. Nothing to get excited about.

    4. The headlights and grille are no longer cute looking. To me, this is an improvement but I think it also means that Jeep won’t sell nearly as many of them. Buyers seeking ‘cute’ will have to settle for VW Beetles, Honda Elements, MINI, or some form of Scion.

    5. On the plus side, the retractable Sky Slider roof is really great. But really, isn’t the four-door Wrangler is a much better option for those of us who want to play in the mud on the weekends but have to drive kids to school the rest of the week? I think so. I just wish the Wrangler had the Jeep 3.7L (or the MB 3.0L CRD) rather than the Chrysler 3.8L minivan engine.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:52 am ]
Post subject: 
If they were trying to follow a theme...they should have added the same "trapazoid comma-quote shaped headlight conglomeration" to the Patriot too. Then the Commander, Liberty and Patriot would all look as similiar as the Baldwin Brothers.

After thinking about it I have to say the only two new Jeeps (2008) I would think about buying are the Liberty or Wrangler Unlimited. The Grand is OK, but not my style and the DIESEL version is WAY TOO MUCH $$$. The Patriot is just not enuff of an offroad brute and the Compass...well If you can't say anything nice, don't way anything.

I would rather have the 2006 Liberty CRD or the 2006 Wranger Rubicon Unlimited over anything else...I know, from personal experience, that the rounded edges of the 2002-2006 KJs lets them "rollover" and land back on their feet like a cat. :wink:
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
2. No improvement to engine or driveline. Not that I have a problem with either. Some might say leave well enough alone, but where’s the progress? The competition has gotten better so why hasn’t Jeep?
Well the front diff has more ribbing for strength around the pinion shaft area,still aluminum but at least they attempted to strengthin it.Also the front CV's on the front driveshaft are gone,went to the stronger U-joint style front driveshaft.They put the LBJ's in the right way,but went to a aluminum knuckle(looking awfully just like the Grands,maybe the 4" Grand lifts may work,HMMMMM).I would count these 3 things as a improvement.On the downside thought they took away the manual shifter for the t-case and replaced it with a electric motor(probally $400+ for it) that will be prone to stop working just like the GM's do all the time.
Author:  Black_Dog [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
tjkj2002 wrote:
Well the front diff has more ribbing for strength around the pinion shaft area,still aluminum but at least they attempted to strengthin it.Also the front CV's on the front driveshaft are gone,went to the stronger U-joint style front driveshaft.They put the LBJ's in the right way,but went to a aluminum knuckle(looking awfully just like the Grands,maybe the 4" Grand lifts may work,HMMMMM).I would count these 3 things as a improvement.On the downside thought they took away the manual shifter for the t-case and replaced it with a electric motor(probally $400+ for it) that will be prone to stop working just like the GM's do all the time.


True enough. Hopefully these refinements will increase the durability (I had an axle sheer off at the base of the knuckle, which ended my fun in a hurry). But none of those changes enhance the performance. Consider some competitors:
    • Nissan Xterra: 4.0L V6, 261 hp, 281 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic.
    • Toyota Highlander: 3.5L V6, 270hp, 248 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota 4Runner: 4.0L V6, 236hp, 266 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota FJ Cruiser: 4.0L V6, 239hp, 278 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota RAV4: 3.5L V6, 269 hp, 246 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Hummer H3: 3.7L I5, 242 hp, 242 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
    • Dodge Nitro R/T: 4.0L V6, 260 hp, 265 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Suzuki Grand Vitera: 2.7L V6, 185 hp, 184 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Kia Sportage: 2.7L V6, 173 hp, 178 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
    • Hyundai Tucson: 2.7L V6, 173 hp, 178 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic

The Liberty is out gunned by everybody on the list except the Suzuki and the Korean twins.
Author:  duckhunter71 [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Xterra's got a 4.0L V6..
Author:  Black_Dog [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
duckhunter71 wrote:
The Xterra's got a 4.0L V6..

I keyed it in wrong. Fixed. Thanks.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Black_Dog wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
Well the front diff has more ribbing for strength around the pinion shaft area,still aluminum but at least they attempted to strengthin it.Also the front CV's on the front driveshaft are gone,went to the stronger U-joint style front driveshaft.They put the LBJ's in the right way,but went to a aluminum knuckle(looking awfully just like the Grands,maybe the 4" Grand lifts may work,HMMMMM).I would count these 3 things as a improvement.On the downside thought they took away the manual shifter for the t-case and replaced it with a electric motor(probally $400+ for it) that will be prone to stop working just like the GM's do all the time.


True enough. Hopefully these refinements will increase the durability (I had an axle sheer off at the base of the knuckle, which ended my fun in a hurry). But none of those changes enhance the performance. Consider some competitors:
    • Nissan Xterra: 4.0L V6, 261 hp, 281 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic.
    • Toyota Highlander: 3.5L V6, 270hp, 248 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota 4Runner: 4.0L V6, 236hp, 266 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota FJ Cruiser: 4.0L V6, 239hp, 278 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota RAV4: 3.5L V6, 269 hp, 246 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Hummer H3: 3.7L I5, 242 hp, 242 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
    • Dodge Nitro R/T: 4.0L V6, 260 hp, 265 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Suzuki Grand Vitera: 2.7L V6, 185 hp, 184 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Kia Sportage: 2.7L V6, 173 hp, 178 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
    • Hyundai Tucson: 2.7L V6, 173 hp, 178 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
The Liberty is out gunned by everybody on the list except the Suzuki and the Korean twins.
HP isn't everything,a better driveline is more important,and the '08 H3's are getting the 5.3L V-8,no more I-5.
Author:  k99jk99j [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Black_Dog wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
Well the front diff has more ribbing for strength around the pinion shaft area,still aluminum but at least they attempted to strengthin it.Also the front CV's on the front driveshaft are gone,went to the stronger U-joint style front driveshaft.They put the LBJ's in the right way,but went to a aluminum knuckle(looking awfully just like the Grands,maybe the 4" Grand lifts may work,HMMMMM).I would count these 3 things as a improvement.On the downside thought they took away the manual shifter for the t-case and replaced it with a electric motor(probally $400+ for it) that will be prone to stop working just like the GM's do all the time.


True enough. Hopefully these refinements will increase the durability (I had an axle sheer off at the base of the knuckle, which ended my fun in a hurry). But none of those changes enhance the performance. Consider some competitors:
    • Nissan Xterra: 4.0L V6, 261 hp, 281 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic.
    • Toyota Highlander: 3.5L V6, 270hp, 248 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota 4Runner: 4.0L V6, 236hp, 266 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota FJ Cruiser: 4.0L V6, 239hp, 278 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Toyota RAV4: 3.5L V6, 269 hp, 246 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Hummer H3: 3.7L I5, 242 hp, 242 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
    • Dodge Nitro R/T: 4.0L V6, 260 hp, 265 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Suzuki Grand Vitera: 2.7L V6, 185 hp, 184 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic
    • Kia Sportage: 2.7L V6, 173 hp, 178 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
    • Hyundai Tucson: 2.7L V6, 173 hp, 178 lb-ft, 4-speed automatic
The Liberty is out gunned by everybody on the list except the Suzuki and the Korean twins.



yeah but the liberty is still the best seller in its class! who cares if my neighbor has 10 more horsepower?
Author:  Black_Dog [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
tjkj2002 wrote:
HP isn't everything,a better driveline is more important,and the '08 H3's are getting the 5.3L V-8,no more I-5.

Of course peak HP is not everything. Torque, RPM of peak HP and Torque, flatness of the power curve, gearing, weight, reliability, etc. are all important considerations.

The point is, all of these engines have been updated since Jeep updated the 3.7L. Furthermore, most of them are paired with 5-speed transmission that are (theoretically) smoother and more fuel efficient.

With the exception of the H3, I have driven all of these vehicles. Each of these other engines run smoother and rev easier than the current Jeep 3.7L.

When the KJ debuted, it had more power (HP and torque) than any of the others on the list (that were then in production). Today, Liberty's not. I'm glad they made the other front driveline improvements, but Jeep definitely missed an opportunity to upgrade the engine and tranny.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just dumb to not offer the 4.0L that is in the Nitro in the Liberty. Heck, why did they give the Nitro a year head start...they could have sold the KK and KJ side by side like the Cherokee and Liberty. Of course 20/20 is always an easy way to question decisions.

If you look at the Nissan line for instance...The Xterra is a bit bigger than the KJ, the new Pathfinder is bigger than the KK and Commander...and the Armada dwarfs all the Jeeps. There are so many "good" SUV type vehicles out there, you have to do something to differentiate from the crowd. The Wranger really has no equal...the KJ had only one "real" competitor in the Xterra...The Grand Cherokee always had and has a following. Where do the Compass (with the Caliber cousin), KK LIberty (with the Nitro cousin) and the Commander (soon to be the dead cousin) stand against the competition?
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The point is, all of these engines have been updated since Jeep updated the 3.7L. Furthermore, most of them are paired with 5-speed transmission that are (theoretically) smoother and more fuel efficient.
I understand where you are coming from but those fancy 5 speed auto's are more $$$,not as reliable when offroading,heck I rarely get out of 1st gear when I'm offroad,no need for 4 other gears.Granted they do need to scrap the 42RLE tranny,they need to go back to the 45RFE,screw the 545RFE.As far as the engine goes,how long did it take to get any improvement out of the 4.0L I-6? The 3.7 is a good engine,little lacking in the low rpm range but otherwise a overall good little engine.True Jeeps(not Dodge cross overs) seem not to change for a long time as far as the drivetrain goes, "If it ain't broken,don't fix it" kinda motto,even though the new KK is a Dodge cross over,really surprised it didn't come with the 4.0 V-6,maybe for '09.
Author:  sleeve84028 [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KK Test Drive
Black_Dog wrote:
1. The biggest disappointment is the handling.


TheCarConnection.com said just the opposite

Black_Dog wrote:
2. No improvement to engine or driveline. Not that I have a problem with either. Some might say leave well enough alone, but where’s the progress? The competition has gotten better so why hasn’t Jeep?


I do agree here. Even with all of the electronic stuff that is included with the select trac II system it's still a 4 speed auto tranny. I would have prefered that they at least bump up the upper level trucklet to have 1 additional gear.

Black_Dog wrote:
3. The front seats are better contoured and more comfortable. The rear seats have about 1.5” more leg room. And in the back there is a handy storage compartment with a reversible top (carpet on one side, plastic on the other). Otherwise, the interior isn’t any better – just slightly different looking. Nothing to get excited about.


How is this nothing to get excited about? Larger interior, correct placement of the window switches and even more cargo room. I could use some more comfortable seats for sure

Thanks for the report too...
Author:  Black_Dog [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KK Test Drive
sleeve84028 wrote:
How is this nothing to get excited about? Larger interior, correct placement of the window switches and even more cargo room. I could use some more comfortable seats for sure

Thanks for the report too...

Actually, the interior of the KK is smaller (numbers from Jeep.com):
Image
As you can see, it has 3.5 cuft less room of passenger interior volume than the KJ. KK loses 4.3” of hip room in the front, a little head room (front and rear). It gains in rear leg and hip room. Cargo area with seats up is ½ cuft larger but with both seats folded up is 4.8 cuft smaller – that’s the biggest difference.

That’s the math. My perceptions were that the front leg room was narrower because the center console is wider. My legs felt more tightly packed in than they do in my KJ. In the back seat, I didn’t really notice the additional 1.5” of leg room. My knees were still firmly buried in the back of the front seat and I still had to twist and squirm to get my size-10 shoes in comfortably.

The rear doors are cut shorter, perhaps to accommodate the Sky Slider sunroof. The result is I banged my head (I’m 5’11” tall) when I climbed in. I’ve never done that in my KJ.

In the cargo area there is more useable deck space between the tailgate and the back of the rear seats, which I appreciate. I think where the KK loses its volume is in the vertical space – it doesn’t feel as tall when you are in it.

I have gotten used to the window controls on the center console. My wife really loves it so she can control the rear windows when the kids are in the back seats. So for me, putting the controls on the door was a let down. The old placement was one of those quirky things that endears me to the KJ.

There is a 110v outlet on the back of the center console so rear passengers can power DVDs or video games. That’s a plus, although it won’t power an air compressor.

Overall, the interior didn't seem that different to me. The styling of the dash and components look different but not necessarily better. If anything, the plastics fell harder and more brittle. The stereo still rocks (for a stock system).
Author:  Black_Dog [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KK Test Drive
sleeve84028 wrote:
Black_Dog wrote:
1. The biggest disappointment is the handling.


TheCarConnection.com said just the opposite
Evaluating ride and handling are somewhat subjective so you are going to get a variety of responses. But…

TCC wrote:
Over the road, the new Liberty delivered a genuinely comfortable ride.
I agree. The ride quality of the KK is much more comfortable and quiet. They corrected the harshness of the KJ’s ride. Unfortunately, they overcorrected it.

TCC wrote:
For a truck, it felt softly sprung so there were no harsh jolts, but it never wallowed.
I’m not sure what Rex Roy means by ‘wallowed.’ Does he mean that it doesn’t roll around in the mud like a pig? This actually sounds like something the Liberty was meant to do.

Wallow or not, my test rig wafted excessively – as in: to float gently through the air; something carried on the air or by a breeze; a gentle waving or fluttering motion. After any abrupt steering maneuver, the body rebounds (i.e. excessive yaw pitch) as it loosely attempts to regain alignment with the wheels.

TCC wrote:
Engineers succeeded in refining the Liberty 's on-road ride without compromising its off-road capabilities.
Refinement is not a word I would use. They got sloppy with the KK. To me, if it were refined it would be smooth riding without sacrificing handling. There are now many examples of SUVs that have achieved this.

TCC wrote:
The rack-and-pinion steering responded quickly, and the chassis followed suit by delivering flat cornering.
As I’ve stated before, the over-boosted power steering lacks on center feel. In fact, it lacks any feel at all. I subscribe to the school of automotive though that a vehicle should provide feedback about traction and wheel placement through the steering, accelerator, seat, and brake. The KK steering and suspension are so isolating you don’t get any feedback whatsoever.

If by flat, Roy means that the rig doesn’t lean, I strongly disagree. Of the dozen or so SUV/CUV’s I have test driven in the last year, the KK leans more than any except the Trailblazer.
Author:  Reflex [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just gotta say, for the record, that I think you are very very alone in your opinion on the center mounted window controls. This is the only vehicle I've ever been in with the controls like this, and it throws me and every single passenger I have had with me off when they try to roll down the windows for the first time(door locks always get hit instead). Its simply not intuitive.

I'm glad you've personally found a reason to like them, but its definatly an acquired taste, and honestly were I to mod my KJ from stock, that would be the item I'd want to change the most. I'd strongly consider changing to a KK if it had a CRD version simply for that feature, honestly.

One question though: Did they make the glove compartment any more useful and did they add anymore storage compartments? There is little space to put anything in the KJ aside from the back...
Author:  letsroll [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Liberty was my 3rd vehicle with center mounted window controls so it was nothing new for me. My prior vehicles were a 72 Mercedes 280 and my 88 T-bird Turbo coupes. No make that the fourth whereas I think my 2001 PT cruiser also had these!
Author:  k99jk99j [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
i had a 1985 merkur xr4ti with center mount controls. it really isn't a big deal to me one way or another. on the consol drinks get spilled but on the door panel the rain gets to em. 6 of one half dozen of another. i'm happy were ever they are.
Author:  sleeve84028 [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Standard placement for window switches is on the armrest. The center console is a last resort for a packaging engineer that can't find any more room or a smaller set of switches. Owning two vehicles with switches in different locations in the car is really annoying.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have seen so many armrest mounted Power Window Switches and the base they sit in get mis-shaped after a time. They are also in the way if you have to get to the window unit to fix. I find it funny that "Car Reviewers" think it is such a big deal they have to mention it.
Author:  Diggerfreek [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
at least liberty's come with power windows unlike my 69 power wagon :twisted:
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