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ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=55685		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  turbosocks [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Well, I made the biggest mistake ever not opting for the 4x4 when I got my Liberty back in December. Now no one will take a trade on it to make it worth it for me. I am CRAVING 4x4, but every option I have tried fell through, and theres no way I am going to pay MORE monthly payments for a used 4x4...

I don't want another car either, because alot of people will say, why not get an XJ or something.. I am assuming it would be cheaper to piece together the pieces I would need to convert to 4x4 than buy a junker XJ or something that I'd need to replace a bunch of things and pay for insurance, etc.

Please try and bear with my and realize this is more of an idea at the moment than anything..

I am not looking to convert the KK to an upgraded 4x4 system, but more of just converting it to the stock 4x4 system.

What are the differences, if any in the KJ and KK transfer cases? I would assume they are a different case all together, but who knows. I did a little searching on ebay and the price difference is definately alot.. 200$ for KJ 800$ for KK..

i'd obviously need the front CV axles.. 200$
would need the transfer case: 200-800$
would need the 3 driveshafts: 500-600$ used?
front differential: 800$?
misc. brackets, hardware, etc.: another 200$ or so..

I would obviously need the electronics also to engage it, but not totally sure what I would need. would need to look into it a bit more.. I don't know if the 4x4 and 4x2 use the same TCM but I could pick one up anyway for ~100$ and I would need the 4x4 controls..

Everything should be there for it to bolt up since its the same vehicle, no?

after all is said and done, I could pick up some skid plates, get some meaty tires, etc.

Just wanting to throw the idea out there, because it seems like the main parts could all be done for under 5000$ if i did my own work, and would be relatively 'bolt in' minus some wiring.

please don't flame me for thinking aloud :P
Author:  audiboy86 [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Well it all comes down to how different the electronics are in the 2 vehicals. Because while KJ parts are going to be cheaper and easier to find they may not work b/c of electronics upgrades in the KK. But you should be able to find a wrecked 4x4 KK on ebay and just rob the whole system. And yes you have all the parts listed you will most likely need except possibly a rear end. But i would suggest crawling underneath a 4x4 version and look at the bolt patterns of both the transmission and the rear end because you might be in luck and only have to buy a few small things.

P.S. The ECU and TCM are also a ? that needs to be raised and that is one i can definitely not help you with.
Author:  RRiveraKK [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
X2 Audioboy, but instead of ebay, try Copart you might have a facility close to you that might have a KK. Look at this link it has a few options but I would research by facilities that are closer to you. http://www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.htm ... ange=99999

Hope you can find a way to upgrade,
Good luck
Author:  Boblemoche [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
the kj t case is manual and the KK one is electric so you will have a hard time to fit the kj tcase lever on the KK console. you will have to buy a brand new front diff as the kj one is completly diffrent. actually almost all parts will need to be new.

cv's : 200$ each
front diff : new at the dealer probably more than 1000$
2 drive shaft : new at dealer or new custom : around 600$ each
t case : the extra labor for fitting a kj one will probably get you in the kk tcase range 800$
misc 200$
labor ?? are you sure you can do this your self. it might be bolt on its still not that easy

I would say that its doable for less than 5k
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Can it be done? Sure with enough money and time. But is it worth it? No.

What your going to pay to make it 4wd and work properly will be far more then what you would be hit with for trade in loss which will be stretched out over years instead of all at once.Plus unless you plan on keeping it till the wheels fall off it will not be worth it as the trade in value will be almost zero due to it being modified,basically your 2wd will be worth more then your 2wd converted to 4wd regardless what anyone say's.Then you got insurance to worry about also,you must inform your insurance company of the mod or they may decline any coverage after a accident leaving you SOL and possibly owing millions in a lawsuit.Just some things to think about.
Author:  At The Helm [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
I would just bite it on the trade in or sell privately. You can find used kk 4x4s with low miles for a lot less than a new one. I bought my 2010 w 1,500 miles on it for 9000 less than it cost new! This sounds like its your only vehicle, so think about how much down time its going to have. That is a lot of work and $$ you are putting in to it with no guarantees that it will work properly, and will not be under any warrantee. It will almost definitly void warrantee on a lot of other components on it too.
A rear locker might be another option, but thats some $$ too.
You may also have problems with dmv, title, registration, and, like the guy above me said, insurance.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Atthehelm wrote:
I would just bite it on the trade in or sell privately. You can find used kk 4x4s with low miles for a lot less than a new one. I bought my 2010 w 1,500 miles on it for 9000 less than it cost new! This sounds like its your only vehicle, so think about how much down time its going to have. That is a lot of work and $$ you are putting in to it with no guarantees that it will work properly, and will not be under any warrantee. It will almost definitly void warrantee on a lot of other components on it too.
A rear locker might be another option, but thats some $$ too.
You may also have problems with dmv, title, registration, and, like the guy above me said, insurance.

Yeah totally forgot that any warranty will be voided,that much modification could actually void the complete warranty and no the MF act will not save you on this one.
Author:  mag03kj [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
I say go for it!
I mean hell if ppl are SFA'ing then why the hell not just do it? SFA is about the same thing.........so why not do it and then tell ppl that you did that and dont know of anybody else thats done it b4.
Author:  turbosocks [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
ok, i understand the whole voiding the warranty deal and such, but if i were to trade for a used car (which i can't because i would be to 'upside down' on the trade in) i wouldn't have a warranty anyway (unless it was certified used, even then, usually only 80k warranty on a car with ~40-50k form what i've found). I can't get a new liberty 4x4 because of being upside down and the price new would give me INSANE payments and i'd be paying much more to have 4x4 than doing it custom..

I talked with 3-4 dealers, and no one will even bother, considering how upside down i am on the loan.. i owe 25k (had negative equity going into it when i traded in my srt-4, which i still owed on) the best appraisal i got was 17k$.. one dealer offered me 19k$ if i traded into getting a 30k$ liberty, which would put me at another 6 years financing and my payments at 500$ a month. fuuuuu that..

definately not worried about the insurance thing, specially because it won't be aftermarket parts, just an aftermarket install.

I am pretty sure I am going to go ahead with it and just trying to figure out a 'shopping list' for the most part...

I believe the 4x4 electronic controls directly controls the transfer case motor and probably wont need a 4x4 TCM or ECU..

I am pretty sure the rear ends are the same, but could use some clearing up on that, as well as the transmission.

if thats the case, once i had the parts, i could install the front system without even hooking up the transfer case (this way the car would still be driveable until i did the rest) and spend a weekend on a lift installing the case, 4x4 wiring and driveshafts.. if it didn't work right away, wouldn't take long to remove the transfer case, install the RWD driveshaft and try again later. Unless I am totally over looking something, i don't see where anything EXTREME would be needed in custom parts, fabrication, etc.

In the meantime, I think I am going to start picking up things like tires/wheels, lift and possibly a locker to see how far a locker can take me without 4x4..
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
turbosocks wrote:
ok, i understand the whole voiding the warranty deal and such, but if i were to trade for a used car (which i can't because i would be to 'upside down' on the trade in) i wouldn't have a warranty anyway (unless it was certified used, even then, usually only 80k warranty on a car with ~40-50k form what i've found). I can't get a new liberty 4x4 because of being upside down and the price new would give me INSANE payments and i'd be paying much more to have 4x4 than doing it custom..

I talked with 3-4 dealers, and no one will even bother, considering how upside down i am on the loan.. i owe 25k (had negative equity going into it when i traded in my srt-4, which i still owed on) the best appraisal i got was 17k$.. one dealer offered me 19k$ if i traded into getting a 30k$ liberty, which would put me at another 6 years financing and my payments at 500$ a month. fuuuuu that..

definately not worried about the insurance thing, specially because it won't be aftermarket parts, just an aftermarket install.

I am pretty sure I am going to go ahead with it and just trying to figure out a 'shopping list' for the most part...

I believe the 4x4 electronic controls directly controls the transfer case motor and probably wont need a 4x4 TCM or ECU..

I am pretty sure the rear ends are the same, but could use some clearing up on that, as well as the transmission.

if thats the case, once i had the parts, i could install the front system without even hooking up the transfer case (this way the car would still be driveable until i did the rest) and spend a weekend on a lift installing the case, 4x4 wiring and driveshafts.. if it didn't work right away, wouldn't take long to remove the transfer case, install the RWD driveshaft and try again later. Unless I am totally over looking something, i don't see where anything EXTREME would be needed in custom parts, fabrication, etc.

In the meantime, I think I am going to start picking up things like tires/wheels, lift and possibly a locker to see how far a locker can take me without 4x4..

Looking at the parts books the output shafts for the trans is different between the 2wd and 4wd so that will need to be changed either by putting in a 4wd trans or tearing apart the whole 2wd trans and swapping in the 4wd output shaft.
Author:  Boblemoche [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Quote:
Looking at the parts books the output shafts for the trans is different between the 2wd and 4wd so that will need to be changed either by putting in a 4wd trans or tearing apart the whole 2wd trans and swapping in the 4wd output shaft.



must not be much harder to change the output shaft than to install a rubycrawler
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Boblemoche wrote:
Quote:
Looking at the parts books the output shafts for the trans is different between the 2wd and 4wd so that will need to be changed either by putting in a 4wd trans or tearing apart the whole 2wd trans and swapping in the 4wd output shaft.



must not be much harder to change the output shaft than to install a rubycrawler

The Rubicrawler was designed for 4wd trans,will not work on a 2wd trans without swapping the rear output shaft which requires complete trans dissassembly as that output shaft is the last to come out of the trans.Actually not real hard to swap out the output shafts,some special tools maybe required but a good set of snap ring pliers is generally all you need.
Author:  RRiveraKK [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
Wow, I vote the SFA.
Author:  turbosocks [ Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
hmmm.. ill have to look into the whole output shaft deal.

If thats the case of needing to take apart the whole transmission, that might be the only thing holding me back from doing the conversion. I know how taking apart transmissions can be how and how complicated it can sometimes become, and would be a little to much to make it worth it for me.

just was looking at the Jeep Lib KK service manual.. looks like the RWD has an 'extender' that bolts to the part of the transmission that the Transfer case adapter usually would bolt to. not sure what it would look like under there if i popped it off, but its worth a looksie.

Fig 1A.. the setup for 4x4
Image

Fig 2A.. the setup for 4x2 (no pic of the extender in the manual, but i looked at it, its similar.. haha)
Image

just trying to put together as much info as i can in one place for when i get serious (if i do) about getting parts.

In my opinion, the first and most complicated part of the setup would be the 4WD adapter install and making sure i could control the T-case motor.

EDIT: sorry about the images being flipped, more for my reference anyway and anyone interested in what im trying to talk about/accomplish.
Author:  turbosocks [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
just bumping this up.

I am curious if I was to figure out a way to get A Transfer case, transfer case adapter, and 4x4 rear driveshaft installed, if I could run without the front drivetrain hooked up.

Basically would still be only RWD, but have a transfer case hooked up instead of just the driveshaft.

Just wondering, because if I got that part working, all I would need to do if it didn't work was swap it back and sell the parts and reinstall the stock extender and driveshaft..

this is all based on the fact that i HOPE not to have to replace the output shaft which all depends on what it looks like when I pop the extender off.

It also looks like the only difference between the KJ and KK transfer case (as far as hookup goes) was the manual vs. electric.. From what I could tell the hookups for the driveshafts were the same.

I am also going to try and find out the differences in the KJ and KK front diff. If they are the same dimensions and have the same spline, I could theoretically use a KJ diff with KK CV joints and a KK front driveshaft.. would just have to figure out mounting (of the front diff and the transfer case, as I am not sure how either mount KK or KJ)

I know most of you think the idea is silly and all, but just help if you can, and no need to say 'don't bother' if you don't want to help.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
You can't use a KJ front diff,will not mount in the KK's cradle,you will need a KK front diff.
Author:  DirtyKK [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
If someone was looking to 4x4 a 2wd I would just do a sfa :2cents:
Author:  turbosocks [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
SFA would cost a doo doo ton of money... The Liberty is our only vehicle and an SFA setup is quite extensive.

going to a stock 4x4 system COULD cost as little as 2500$ if things go well.

good to know about the front diff.
Author:  JeepinJarhead03 [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
KK front diff is stronger than the KJ's anyway so consider it a forced upgrade that progressed through your discussion ;)

out of curiosity, where do you live?
Author:  turbosocks [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ok, so i had a crazy idea.. 4x2 to 4x4
i am in ABQ, NM.. and there are a ton of Jeeps here and a ton of places to trail ride.. I keep kicking myself in the head for not getting 4x4, so don't rub it in.. HAHA

Right now, I am even contemplating the things I would be able to do with a rubicrawler + transfer case + 4x4 rear driveshaft in LOW.... and then I could always get the front diff, CV axles and front driveshaft later... hmmmmmm decisions..

It will all come down to what it looks like when I pop off the rear 'extender' and if I would have to take apart the entire transmission or just hook up the transfer case adapter.
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