Its gonna come soon....wheeling a hybrid???

Jeep4me99 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:18 pm

Ok, so lets start this war....gas will sure hit about $10/gallon in 3-4 years. Most of us that don't make $100k per year will be forced to get hybid or electric vehicles, or just stay at home and smell. Plus it looks like this new technology may take over for our trusted gassers within the next 15 or so years (?).
Not all of us can have, or have the need for a trail rig and a DD. Some hybrid vehicles from Lexus and others are putting out pretty decent HP and torque, but for an offroad rig...

what are the possibilities or wheeling a hybrid vehicle?
Will this technology be able to be matted to a 4x4 system that can actually be taken off-road?
Are these systems too fagile for our type of vehicle abuse?
Once you cross a river, will the entire vehicle die like Johnny5?

So lets hear everyones thoughts.......

Pote · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:40 pm

I will wager that 5-10 years from now gas will still be under $5/gallon for most of the country. There is enough oil still in this planet for the next 200 years...the oil and gas prices we see now are purely a racket and gets the general public in a tizzy. Proof to me is that one week gas is still 2.69, and then three days later its 3.59...you can't tell me that the powers that be aren't simply dictating this. Sure hybrids are going to be seen more and more, but are gassers are going nowhere for a very long time to come. I wager I'll be old and grey and my children will still be driving their gassers around. At 10/gallon, it would put transportation in trouble (both consumer and freight/airlines/etc), no one could afford that. I don't ever foresee that price range here in the US, otherwise everyone will have to secure jobs within walking distance...who knows....lets flame on and keep the debate going. With a measly 18.5 gallon tank, I don't think anyone will be able to spend $180/week to fill up...just aint gonna happen. But again, I'm no economist, and am talkin out my arse. LOL

FWIW, I think hybrids are just going to be a bandaid until the real alternatives hit the futuristic market....long term solutions like fuel cells (hydrogen cars) is what will replace everything - maybe 25-50 years out. Charge up that ride, and the only byproduct is good old H2O for emissions. Get thirsty on your drive across country...get out and have a drink from your tailpipe!! LOL. :lol:

tommudd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:43 pm

agree with the its a racket with gas prices Pote, sister works for a guy and runs his oil and gas business, right now they can not sell their oil due to the refinerys being full, no where to put the oil so the people that they sell it to says just hold onto it and dont pump anymore for now. :roll:

All a bunch of crap with the oil companies and the President and Vice President getting richer. Can we ever get people inside Washington that have any common sense at all?

Now onto what is next yes the so called green cars of today are only a band aid fix, none impress me and those that are out there will not stand the test of time. My boss with the Prius is not liking it already and is planning on getting rid of it soon due to the costs associated it in the long run.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:22 pm

A few years ago there was a TV special on a Rover with just an electric motor (never electric engine). The thing about electric motors is that the torque is instant...like a train. You can get gobs of torque from an electric motor.

MikeJ06 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:38 pm

tommudd wrote:

My boss with the Prius is not liking it already and is planning on getting rid of it soon due to the costs associated it in the long run.

Wasn't there a study done to compare the long term cost "benefits" of owning a hybrid car vs. a standard gasoline powered version of the same vehicle? I think in the end the difference was so close that it didn't justify owning one or that the hybrid actually cost more by a few hundred because of the required specialized maintenance.

Jeep4me99 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:42 pm

DarbyWalters wrote:

A few years ago there was a TV special on a Rover with just an electric motor (never electric engine). The thing about electric motors is that the torque is instant...like a train. You can get gobs of torque from an electric motor.

yea, but can the electric motor be matted to a tranny (not the cross dressing type :lol:

) and transfer case allowing it to withstand the rigours of off road driving, not only the bumps, constant stop starts, but also the conditions, mud, snow, water, dirt ect?

Dje Ryu · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:17 pm

Jeep4me99 wrote:

DarbyWalters wrote:

A few years ago there was a TV special on a Rover with just an electric motor (never electric engine). The thing about electric motors is that the torque is instant...like a train. You can get gobs of torque from an electric motor.

yea, but can the electric motor be matted to a tranny (not the cross dressing type :lol:

) and transfer case allowing it to withstand the rigours of off road driving, not only the bumps, constant stop starts, but also the conditions, mud, snow, water, dirt ect?

It could be possible but with electric motors today, it would take one about the size of a Civic to match the HP and torque of even the 3.7. They're trying to make them smaller but, most current all-electric cars are using a motor on each wheel to have enough power to move at any decent speeds. They have lots of torque as Darby said but, severely lacking in HP. Basically, in order to 'wheel with one, I think you'd have to either regear all the motors and wheels or put a t-case (which probably hasn't been invented yet) in at each motor/wheel.

KJ4ME · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:47 pm

my mom has a prius and youre right about electric motors having gobs or torque. and because it has a cvt, it feels much like a light rail. a continuous surge of thrust with no interruptions, its way cool! ive got my eye on the FWD escape hybrid (uses toytas last generation hybrid programming) as it could be a perfect liberty replacement down the line.

as for off roading a hybrid powertrain, two things come to mind: that 4x4SUV will suck on trails because its lightweight. hybrid powertrains work best with lightweight aerodynamic structures; these are the ones that get the 35-60% better MPG over their regular gas competitors. putting a hybrid system in a kj would only yeild probably 5-15% better gas mileage which equates to 1-7MPG better than a normal kj because its a heavy brick. second thing... will WE be able to control the 4x4 system? some of you probably know that hybrids love to control EVERYTHING, this is how they can deliver best fuel economy. manual transmission hybrids are fading away and the ones that have at least AWD use an intuitive system where its computer controlled. the highlander hybrid from toyota didnt even have a drive shaft to the rear wheels on its AWD system (dubbed i-AWD) because they are powered by electric motors. not something i would want to take off the beaten path.

another factor is will it be worth it? mild hybrids (ones that cannot be powered by the electric motor alone like the saturn aura) dont return significant MPG estimates over the standard car and these are the cheapest hybrids because they dont have alot of additional programming, motors, or huge batteries. are you willing to pay $1600 for 1 MPG??? strong hybrids (ones that can run on gas, electric, or any combination of both) are the expensive ones that can cost up to $6,000 over the standard gas only version. and since manufactures could argue that the point of a hybrid is to save gas and true 4x4 systems have a hard time doing that, i cant forsee a true 4x4 hybrid.

on another note, im keeping an eye on the porsche cayenne hybrid that is supposed to come to market in '09. it shares its platform with the very rugged volkswagen touareg that has a off road minded 4WD system. its under development now; i want to see if they keep the 4WD with low range gearing that it has now or ditch it for an i-AWD system...

KeswickDave · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:57 pm

I will preface by saying I'm not by any means an expert about this stuff, but I find it very interesting.

Contrary to what Dje Ryu said above, they are working with electric motors which are small enough to fit behind each wheel (i.e. independant 4 wheel drive), and yet more than powerful enough to move a vehicle, and with gobs of torque.

Check out these guys:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/

Specifically, their Mini QED. While this is more of an experiment than a production vehicle and is most likely obscenely expensive, it does show what can be done with state of the art technology, and what could be around the corner.

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

- Independent Quad Electric Drive
- Traction control and anti skid built into each wheel
- Regenerative braking recovers almost all energy
- Blistering acceleration and high top speed
- Around 80 mpg via onboard engine / generator
- No need to recharge ( although you can if you wish)
- Emissions: Zero for 4 hours
- Autonomy: 1500 km
- Top speed: 240 kph
- Acceleration: 0-100 kph in 4.5 secs
- Braking: No mechanical brakes
- Fuel: Carbon neutral option
- BHP: > 640 bhp

This is the kind of stuff that gets me excited about hybrid / electric technology.

Dave

jason thompson · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:00 pm

I do not see any one wheeling a Hybrid any thing in my life time
What I do expect to see in the next 10 years or so is a Truck ,full size
with some kind of revolutionary engine that gets 30-50 MPG but can still pull the 5-15K# loads of todays trucks
then the need for a trail rig DD combo will go away and and every one will simply by a used Jeep for cheep
and tow it

There is WAY to many things on todays Hybrids to break and there is NO WAY you will find some one who can help you
fix it out on the trail or even worse have a spare part

I also do not expect to see gas hit more than $5 a gallon
if that happens then the people who sell the gas will have to pay $18 an hour for some one to work the register
and the people who make the gas will have to pay their people $30+ and hour ,they already make $25+, so that they
can get to work and afford to live because a trip to the grocery will go from $120 to $175
the grocery cost will be driven by the cost to get the food to the store but if gas is $10 a gallon then the stock boy or
girl working the register will be making $20 an hour to pay for fuel and cost of living

I guess the point is that it is like the cost of living
it will go up along with very thing else,gas is not the only thing that has gone up in cost over the past 5 years
The cost to insure my house has DOUBLED ,just like a gallon of gas
My wife and I spend $130 a week at the grocery compared to 5 years ago we were spending $60-$70
The cost of a house in my area has gone up 175% or more
This means that people are making more to spend more
if gas hits $10 a gallon you should be getting paid that much more

KeswickDave · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:11 pm

I continue to think about this, and while I don't know much about the fragility or durability of hybrid systems, imagine a purpose-built offroad vehicle, if you will, with a motor at each wheel...

Virtual lockers... via the computer of course, lock the rear wheels into turning at the same rate, or the front... or even all 4.

How about brake the left side, drive the right side to negotiate a tight turn.

Or reverse the left side, drive the right side... makes for a nice tight turning radius ;-)

No diffs hanging down in the middle, gain some ground clearance.

No driveshafts to worry about lengths and angles and such.

BLow a motor? Well you've got 3 more to limp home on!

Just thinking out loud here :-)

KeswickDave · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:21 pm

The Army is also working on a hybrid diesel/electric off-road vehicle...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/a ... 17017.html

toy4everyseason · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:27 pm

here's something cool I came across. Its an electric XJ
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:04 pm

Heck with a tcase and tranny, put a motor at each wheel just like a train. Have a small engine power a generator and call it a day. Control the speed by varying the frequency on the AC power.

^^mark my words, its going to happen.

JDaPP · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:23 pm

Marines are working towards it already

http://www.gizmag.com/go/3477/

Edvalencia · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:40 pm

MikeJ06 wrote:

tommudd wrote:

My boss with the Prius is not liking it already and is planning on getting rid of it soon due to the costs associated it in the long run.

Wasn't there a study done to compare the long term cost "benefits" of owning a hybrid car vs. a standard gasoline powered version of the same vehicle? I think in the end the difference was so close that it didn't justify owning one or that the hybrid actually cost more by a few hundred because of the required specialized maintenance.

There is no specialized maintenance required on Hybrids. It's the same as a regular car. I have a first gen. Prius as a commuter and have logged over 220K miles on it. I do all my own maintenance, which is the same as any vehicle.

The amount of torque the electric motor puts out is pretty impressive.
A tough hybrid can be made. Especially if it's a Series Hybrid, where the engine serves only to generate electricity. One motor per wheel would help out with clearance issues & can act as lockers. The only drawback, would be IFS/IRS.

Guest · **Posted:** Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:35 am

DarbyWalters wrote:

A few years ago there was a TV special on a Rover with just an electric motor (never electric engine). The thing about electric motors is that the torque is instant...like a train. You can get gobs of torque from an electric motor.

Engines and motors both convert stored energy into kinetic energy;) technically, they're the same.

As for torque/horsepower in an electric motor, just like in a gas engine, their power curve is dictated by timing and other factors, such as winds/turns of the armature. however, thanks to the advances in brushless motors...we've got variable electronically-controlled timing, so the only thing that really has to stay the same are the winds/turns, and therefore, current draw. Just like an IC engine, the only limiting factor is how well it can be fed its stored energy and how big you can make it.

Maybe I need to get back into electric RC cars and ditch my nitros for a while :lol:

Ed, the only drawback to IRS/IFS is the fact that you've got to deal with driveshaft angles from the diff to the wheel. motors in each hub would be ideal for a setup like that and let real independent suspension kick some arse.

David Jr · **Posted:** Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:51 pm

Here's some artwork on the 2008 Jeep Renegade concept:

...and here are the specs:
2008 Jeep® Renegade Concept
The 2008 Jeep Renegade Concept is a sporty B-segment-sized two-seater ideally suited for the all-weather delights of off-roading and dune surfing.
Featuring a cut-down speedster windshield, a roll bar, openings in the door lowers and a hose-out interior, it is an "eco-friendly" vehicle with minimized use of materials
- designed for those who want to enjoy the earth while taking care of its future. The propulsion system combines a 40-mile lithium-ion battery pack and a small-displacement BLUETEC diesel engine.
The result: fuel economy of more than 110 miles per gallon.

Specifications
Length: 153 inches (3885 mm)
Width at H-point: 62.9 inches (1598 mm)
Height: 56.3 inches (1431 mm)
Wheelbase: 101.6 inches (2580 mm)

Edvalencia · **Posted:** Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:07 pm

110 MPG?
That would be my next commuter vehicle.

Universeman · **Posted:** Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:31 pm

This is pure fantasy but if I could build the perfect future hybrid Jeep it would have 50hp electric motors at each wheel driven by a hybrid Diesel/electric/battery system. There would be no transmission, transfercase, driveshafts, axels to break. it would have a long travel 4 wheel independent suspension, 4 doors & seating for 5, an electromechanical computerized suspension that would sense and adjust for off road conditions whether Baja blasting or rock crawling, and 35" tires of course. One can dream right?

Its gonna come soon....wheeling a hybrid???

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