My day in court

bbo · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:17 pm **Posts:** 382

truckbouy2 wrote:

I'll give you $5000.00 for that....So Called.... "Flawed Lemon Ride" site unseen.
I can be there next week to pick it up...

I'd think he'd rather get the value he paid for than to take a loss due to accepting a lemon.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:39 pm

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I've seen lots of my motorcycle riding friends buy used bikes priced cheap due to having some "issues" and they put some dollars in them and some time and get a great bike for a great deal.

Uffe · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:54 pm

dgeist wrote:

I say learn the basics of math, chemistry, physics, electronics, thermo, and fluids and you'll never need a dealer or a mechanic... or a plumber, or a carpenter, or an electrician.

Dan (I just inspired myself into 3 new DIY projects...)

ROFL.

I'm an electronics engineer - I was flattered by your post. Thanks!

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:44 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

I always hate it when I realize I'm agreeing with Reflex but

1) even if everyone on LOST had the problems you describe - it's statistically insignificant - we're not a large sample and we're not a randomly distributed sample.

2) TSBs and recalls are the result of Chrysler acknowledging a problem and attempting to correct it - it does go to admission that there's a problem - but if they're trying to fix it, they may be off the hook - it totally depends on how your Lemon laws were written.

3) I disagree that fuel system design is flawed - I do argue the manufacture of the fuel heads (plastic puc) has a high failure rate, but you'd need more data and some good failure analysis to prove it.
(NHTSA may do that but I haven't seen the data yet)

(and BlackLiberty - how much of your towing was with the Predator? - that's a factor)

4) The CCV system is a designed in failure - however probably at about the 100,000 mile range if not more, no court is going accept that the vehicle should last forever - 100K is normal - I expect mine to last longer - but I expect to work on it to make that happen.

5) I had no transmission problems prior to F37 - none - I suspect that's much more common than you realize -(no data to support that) - and after - the only problem is that it didn't 'feel' the same - no problems.

The only real argument I see is that Chrysler didn't train it's maintenance techs well enough, so the problems were not resolved in a timely fashion -
I just don't see that as a significant argument, it might get some money back.

Yup and on the training thing is that Chrysler's issue or the dealers? I am thinking that the training was there but the dealers either didn't use it or they often hire dunces that have no capacity to learn it. Not Chrysler's failure directly but the dealers.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:07 pm

I'd say that you could lay a good deal of blame for not training techs properly at DC's doorstep.

One of the regular contributors to Turbo Diesel Register magazine is one of the managers of a sizeable CJD dealership in Nevada. In Issue 57, he went into a lengthy diatribe on the Liberty CRD. He noted that while it was in production, training and tech support were spotty at best, and once the announcement was made that CRD production would cease, it disappeared entirely - no training, no tech support, nada.

When the manager of a dealership can't get training for his techs or tech support via phone/e-mail/whatever for a CRD out of DC, who's fault is that?

And what does it say when the manager of a dealership admits that he personally had to resort to aftermarket solutions to fix some of the CRD's faults, again because of no support from DC?

I'm sure some dealerships have caused CRD owners more than their fair share of grief, but DC is far from blameless in this saga as well.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:19 pm

I blame Chrysler.
I understand for a limited production run they didn't want to spend a lot of money on training - but they had an existing network.
If the CRD had been sold through Dodge dealers who sold and serviced Cummins it would have had a small fraction of the problems.

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:45 pm

Uffe wrote:

dgeist wrote:

I say learn the basics of math, chemistry, physics, electronics, thermo, and fluids and you'll never need a dealer or a mechanic... or a plumber, or a carpenter, or an electrician.

Dan (I just inspired myself into 3 new DIY projects...)

ROFL.

I'm an electronics engineer - I was flattered by your post. Thanks!

Welcome. BTW, I hope I didn't offend any plumbers, carpenters, or electricians out there. I respect them two, It just drives me crazy when people speak with authority and are willing to accept anything without it being backed up by simple empirical data. Using your noggin has built many great things and great places and ignoring your noggin tends to tear things apart...

Kellog13 · **Joined:** Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:21 pm **Posts:** 74

Thanks for all the good dialog, we shall see what tomorrow brings.

truckbouy2 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:29 pm

$6500.00.....
That's Yankee dollars...NOT Confederate dollars.....
I'll get it for you alllllllllllllllllllllll in ones so you can show the wife what a nice wad of Christmas cash you got for that rotten, despicable,
heart ache causing, miserable Jeep.... :wink:

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

When my warranty expires, my Jeep will be going to Marcel, the diesel VW/Mercedes mechanical guru at Fix Em' Haus garage. In a 10 minute conversation with him a couple months ago it became clear he already knew more about the mechanical ins and outs of our Jeep than the techs at the dealer where I bought it (he even knew about the tranny issues and the fuel filter head issues).

Got to love diesel geeks...

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:15 pm

And where exactly is Marcel's shop? I am looking for an independent shop that knows our KJs inside and out for when my warranty runs out.

clday25 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:57 pm

x2 on the location of this shop.....

Thanks,
Chris

Uffe · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:08 pm

I feel very fortunate having a CRD in europe.

A mate of mine has had tonnes of repairs of diesel cars through the last 6 years and he always lends me a hand changing filters, adding mods, changing oil and repairing rust in my cars. He regularly changes engines, transmissions and puts on lift kits. Hes a great guy to know

We never run into diesel related problems, the worst problem we have faced is those proprietary nutzerts used for adding a skidplate to the CRD. Now it seems to be fine, as we finally found out how to install them. Pretty basic stuff, but dealer told me BS the first time I asked him. darn hippies.

Kellog13 · **Joined:** Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:21 pm **Posts:** 74

Well it's done and in the hands of the arbitrator, I'm not sure how this will end up. We went for a ride and thier eyes got wide when they heard how the engine sounded under load. The chrysler lawyer had an answer for everything it seemed and when we were finished, we were miles apart. I just hope I made a convincing case....I got the feeling he's instructed not to loose as this will set a precenence for future cases. We will hear within two weeks.

0311_DoC · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:39 pm

Kellog13 wrote:

Well it's done and in the hands of the arbitrator, I'm not sure how this will end up. We went for a ride and thier eyes got wide when they heard how the engine sounded under load. The chrysler lawyer had an answer for everything it seemed and when we were finished, we were miles apart. I just hope I made a convincing case....I got the feeling he's instructed not to loose as this will set a precenence for future cases. We will hear within two weeks.

Gee, imagine that....... lets keep screwin the lil guy.....

Uffe · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:09 am

If those guys are used to gasoline cars they will always be astounded by how a diesel engine sounds!

Especially the KJ CRD has a rough motor sound. I don't know about you - but I love that

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:26 am

I bet you're right. The dealer put all those parts in trying to get it to sound like a gasser. In reality, there was nothing wrong. :roll:

chadhargis · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:34 am

I love the sound of a diesel. I've always been a lover of vehicles that have a bit of character to them. Nothing worse than a car that runs and sounds like a refrigerator. My wife has a Honda Odyessy van and it's really nice. Runs well, is quite, gets decent mileage for a van, but it has the personality of a wet sponge. Maybe I should put a cherry bomb on it and an intake. LOL!

Uffe · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:52 am

Goglio704 wrote:

I bet you're right. The dealer put all those parts in trying to get it to sound like a gasser. In reality, there was nothing wrong. :roll:

Yeah man - just like I said. They were impressed by the engine sound and put mufflers on it all the time at the shop! Soddy engine just won't act like a REAL gasoline engine, because that's the only true engine in the world!!!1111

So let's sue DC for not making a diesel sound like a gasoline car.

Heck, if you can be sarcastic I can too.

USNA · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:51 pm

I take the inference that the repairs listed below were presented to the arbitrator for consideration as to the vehicle being a “lemon”.
As well the arbitrator drove in the vehicle to confirm drivability concerns. I missed the part about not sounding like a gasoline engine?

""
Reflex- your comments are predictable as always and I'll post the out come for your enjoyment.
Endurance- my case has absolutly nothing to do with the data I've requested but only as a resource.

My vehicle to date 06 crd 23,000 km has the following changed:
Battery
Alternator
EGR
control valve
fuel rail
Turbo Charger assy
Torque converter #1
Flex plate
Transmission and torque converter#2
Alarm system
1000km dealer (they put this on for troubleshoot)
Motor vac 3 times

My vehicle exhibits the same condition as when this all started so the vehicle is in no better shape or improvement. The engine still has the mechanical grinding, the alarm is intermittent and the vehicle shudders like other's here. There's aprox 13,000 in parts and repairs and nothing to show for it. I live in a mountainous area with steep passes, I don't tow anything and have never been off road with it. I've owned small diesels for 20 years and turn my own wrenches and am fully comfortable doing timing belt changes on TDI's for my self and friends. The dealer has given me all the TSB's and recalls for this type as they want me to win as the vehicle is unrepairable. I have more to say about the CRD, but for now lets just say my CRD is a lemon.....
I have a few juicy letters from Chrysler to share with you all but you'll have to wait at most exactly 16 days.

Thank you.""

My day in court

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