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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:12 pm 
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Thanks TDF,
I think this forum should always be a place where all can have open and honest discussions on matters concerning our beloved CRD Jeeps. Then an owner can make their own learned decision as to what part or modification best suits their needs and / or pocketbook...
The more educated we are, the better decisions we make for our CDR Jeeps! Knowledge is a wonderful thing!!!
No one is knocking your fine product or saying it is spurious to say the least, hang in there, your product in the end will speak for itself... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:18 pm 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
joelukex4 wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
joelukex4 & ATXKJ:

joelukex4:

1) Your O.E. engine temperature gauge is not to be trusted as it is not linear in it's measurements of engine temperature. This is not me trying foist B.S. at you, but from Mark Kapalcynski himself. Look at the following link and scroll down to the March 12, 2010 posting by Mark showing two significant things...

viewtopic.php?f=169&t=50940

A) ... the statement that the opening temperature for the O.E. thermostat is 80 degrees Celsius, or 176 degrees Fahrenheit. This is confirmed by the 2005 - 2006 Liberty CRD Factory Service Manual. This has been confirmed by Kieth at Green Diesel Engineering to be too cold a thermostat opening temperature for optimum operation of the CRD engine. You can ask any diesel engine technician and they will also confirm this, especially for a modern diesel engine that has pollution control systems on them.

B) ... the photograph showing each line of the engine temperature gauge and the corresponding measured engine temperature. They simply are not linear, and therefore the engine gauge can not be trusted to give you an accurate measurement of engine temperature. Furthermore, if your gauge is indeed pointing to the first to the left of center, then according to this photograph you are running at 176 degrees Fahrenheit and therefore running too cold.

The point I am making here is than even with a NEW O.E. thermostat assembly you are running your CRD engine too cold. This causes long-term reliability issues, as well as robbing you of optimum power output and fuel economy.

Your continual support of the inline thermostat option just makes me shake my head in disbelief... you need to go do some independent research and find out exactly what tends to happen in engines when the bypass circuit of the cooling system is shut off, as what happens with the use of an inline thermostat in conjunction with a failed O.E. thermostat. Do you also use non-spec fluids in your CRD as well? Perhaps you want to install a pre-lube pump for your engine, but in order to do so you cut off a lubrication circuit... is this also O.K. with you?

Kieth recognizes the CRD cooling system issues for what it is, and purchased a properly engineered and manufactured upgrade part to cure the problem... the Model 001.


TDF - I realize the temperature gauge is not linear and there are 2 possibilities for gauge calibration. See the link. 12 o'clock vertical can be either 216F or 205F based on these gauge values. What you don't see clearly is that the only time my needle was at the first line to the left of center was when it was -10F or better. When running on the interstate at 70+mph I am always just left of center touching the center line. No matter the calibration I am running at least 190F+ temperatures based on the needle position. The t-stat might open at 176F but that is not necessarily where the engine temperature settles in. I do greater than 95% of my driving at high speeds and the gauge seems to settle in at this position which is close to 190 - 200F with both the OEM t-stat and also when I ran with the stant.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75890&view=previous

You keep pointing out that these are turbocharged diesels with aluminum heads but that is nothing special in this day and age. Most all gasoline engines have aluminum heads as well as most light duty diesel vehicles now. Ford Powerstroke, GM Duramax, Ram Ecodiesel and the new 5.0 Cummins have aluminum heads. Even my 1983 Dodge D-50 diesel had an aluminum head. The CRD is just not that special.

I agree that the inline stant my not be the best option to use but it worked well with the failed OEM unit until I changed my timing belt. Currently I am running a new OEM unit until a better more cost effective unit becomes available. At that time I will evaluate it.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:18 pm 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
joelukex4 wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
joelukex4 & ATXKJ:

joelukex4:

1) Your O.E. engine temperature gauge is not to be trusted as it is not linear in it's measurements of engine temperature. This is not me trying foist B.S. at you, but from Mark Kapalcynski himself. Look at the following link and scroll down to the March 12, 2010 posting by Mark showing two significant things...

viewtopic.php?f=169&t=50940

A) ... the statement that the opening temperature for the O.E. thermostat is 80 degrees Celsius, or 176 degrees Fahrenheit. This is confirmed by the 2005 - 2006 Liberty CRD Factory Service Manual. This has been confirmed by Kieth at Green Diesel Engineering to be too cold a thermostat opening temperature for optimum operation of the CRD engine. You can ask any diesel engine technician and they will also confirm this, especially for a modern diesel engine that has pollution control systems on them.

B) ... the photograph showing each line of the engine temperature gauge and the corresponding measured engine temperature. They simply are not linear, and therefore the engine gauge can not be trusted to give you an accurate measurement of engine temperature. Furthermore, if your gauge is indeed pointing to the first to the left of center, then according to this photograph you are running at 176 degrees Fahrenheit and therefore running too cold.

The point I am making here is than even with a NEW O.E. thermostat assembly you are running your CRD engine too cold. This causes long-term reliability issues, as well as robbing you of optimum power output and fuel economy.

Your continual support of the inline thermostat option just makes me shake my head in disbelief... you need to go do some independent research and find out exactly what tends to happen in engines when the bypass circuit of the cooling system is shut off, as what happens with the use of an inline thermostat in conjunction with a failed O.E. thermostat. Do you also use non-spec fluids in your CRD as well? Perhaps you want to install a pre-lube pump for your engine, but in order to do so you cut off a lubrication circuit... is this also O.K. with you?

Kieth recognizes the CRD cooling system issues for what it is, and purchased a properly engineered and manufactured upgrade part to cure the problem... the Model 001.


TDF - I realize the temperature gauge is not linear and there are 2 possibilities for gauge calibration. See the link. 12 o'clock vertical can be either 216F or 205F based on these gauge values. What you don't see clearly is that the only time my needle was at the first line to the left of center was when it was -10F or better. When running on the interstate at 70+mph I am always just left of center touching the center line. No matter the calibration I am running at least 190F+ temperatures based on the needle position. The t-stat might open at 176F but that is not necessarily where the engine temperature settles in. I do greater than 95% of my driving at high speeds and the gauge seems to settle in at this position which is close to 190 - 200F with both the OEM t-stat and also when I ran with the stant.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75890&view=previous

You keep pointing out that these are turbocharged diesels with aluminum heads but that is nothing special in this day and age. Most all gasoline engines have aluminum heads as well as most light duty diesel vehicles now. Ford Powerstroke, GM Duramax, Ram Ecodiesel and the new 5.0 Cummins have aluminum heads. Even my 1983 Dodge D-50 diesel had an aluminum head. The CRD is just not that special.

I agree that the inline stant my not be the best option to use but it worked well with the failed OEM unit until I changed my timing belt. Currently I am running a new OEM unit until a better more cost effective unit becomes available. At that time I will evaluate it.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:24 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
What you need is one of these...

Image

This is simply the best solution for the issue of cold running Liberty CRDs... nothing else available today comes close.


A disclaimer: I own one of these thermostats, and I believe it to be an extremely high quality, well engineered product. I know that TDF spent a LOT of time researching and designing it. With that said, the quoted post above is nothing more than an advertisement for a product he's selling, and as such violates the spirit of the forum.

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:10 am 
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joelukex4 wrote:
When running on the interstate at 70+mph I am always just left of center touching the center line. No matter the calibration I am running at least 190F+ temperatures based on the needle position. The t-stat might open at 176F but that is not necessarily where the engine temperature settles in.


I'm gonna have to respectfully call shenanigans on this. I have done a lot of monitoring of my coolant sensor with my ELM327 during all four seasons and NEVER have I maintained a temperature of more than 174° while cruising the freeway. My needle always sits a tick left of center. The temperature didn't change a bit when I pulled the mech fan earlier this winter. It still always hangs out at 168°-174°.

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:22 am 
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Mike92104 wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
What you need is one of these...

Image

This is simply the best solution for the issue of cold running Liberty CRDs... nothing else available today comes close.


A disclaimer: I own one of these thermostats, and I believe it to be an extremely high quality, well engineered product. I know that TDF spent a LOT of time researching and designing it. With that said, the quoted post above is nothing more than an advertisement for a product he's selling, and as such violates the spirit of the forum.



Does it violate the spirit of the forum when it was the CRD forum members themselves who asked me to do this?


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:43 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Mike92104 wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
What you need is one of these...


This is simply the best solution for the issue of cold running Liberty CRDs... nothing else available today comes close.


A disclaimer: I own one of these thermostats, and I believe it to be an extremely high quality, well engineered product. I know that TDF spent a LOT of time researching and designing it. With that said, the quoted post above is nothing more than an advertisement for a product he's selling, and as such violates the spirit of the forum.



Does it violate the spirit of the forum when it was the CRD forum members themselves who asked me to do this?



Some may have asked you to build them but not all. And certainly no-one has asked you to pollute every thread on the forum concerning thermostats with spam.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:20 am 
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Moderators...... The OP does have a right to his post not being hijacked.

Moderators?

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:27 am 
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racertracer wrote:
Moderators...... The OP does have a right to his post not being hijacked.

Moderators?


It's on topic, not sure how you think it's been "hijacked"?

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:09 am 
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racertracer wrote:
Moderators...... The OP does have a right to his post not being hijacked.

Moderators?


Why do you want some moderator on a power trip to overly moderate things, this forum is moderated just right in my opinion. You start moderating too much, and a lot of good ideas will be driven away.

How would you like your opinion trimmed out of every thread?

Tony CRD is a great and fair mod. :google:

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:33 am 
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t0rquey wrote:
joelukex4 wrote:
When running on the interstate at 70+mph I am always just left of center touching the center line. No matter the calibration I am running at least 190F+ temperatures based on the needle position. The t-stat might open at 176F but that is not necessarily where the engine temperature settles in.


I'm gonna have to respectfully call shenanigans on this. I have done a lot of monitoring of my coolant sensor with my ELM327 during all four seasons and NEVER have I maintained a temperature of more than 174° while cruising the freeway. My needle always sits a tick left of center. The temperature didn't change a bit when I pulled the mech fan earlier this winter. It still always hangs out at 168°-174°.


I can only go by what I see. Everyone that has tested and shows where their needle is running slightly left and touching 12 o'clock is happy. When I had my 195F stant in for 50K miles the vehicle would heat up quickly, sit just left of vertical and sit their all the time whether at idle or running the interstate. With the new OEM t-stat it runs about the first line left of center when at idle during our current temperatures which have been as low as -15F. When I am on the interstate the needle is back up to a tick left of center still touching the center line. I will say that I have a winter front on the CRD and leave all the vents closed. You tell me if the gauge is not working, it moves as the vehicle warms, stays at the same position as the stant while on the interstate and is at the same position that everyone claims is correct.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:08 pm 
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According to all the collective knowledge that I have ever seen, what Joe describes is what I would classify as "normal operating temperatures" and so yes, his OEM thermostat and the in-hose before it were both functioning.

Vehicles don't operate at a static temperature. They warm up and cool down within a range in daily driving, but the temp gauge is "miscalibrated" intentionally so that the idiot behind the wheel isn't seeing the gauge move up and down constantly and get panicked and call the dealership constantly. To prevent the panicked owner syndrome, they programmed the gauge to stay still within a wide range.

On the VW TDI, that middle wide range is 50 degrees wide!

Everybody just relax a bit. If your gauge reaches the middle, then your CRD is within normal operating range - even if it is a touch cool and not at the perfect temp, it won't affect your economy as badly as the engine being 100 degrees too cold from a failed open thermostat.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:36 pm 
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The factory temp gauge sucks and doesn't give an accurate reading of temperature.
One tick to the left of center could be 175, 195, or 205. I've seen it myself using both my torquePro app and with a external temp probe.

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:12 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
The factory temp gauge sucks and doesn't give an accurate reading of temperature.
One tick to the left of center could be 175, 195, or 205. I've seen it myself using both my torquePro app and with a external temp probe.


I'm not disputing that - it is designed to operate exactly that way, because if the gauge was 100% accurate to temperature, then it would be waving back and forth as you were driving around. The chances of the average idiot car driver panicking about nothing at all are much higher.

It moves when the temp is outside of the designed "normal" range.

Yes, we as enthusiasts may want a more accurate gauge, but car manufacturers don't build things for the enthusiasts, do they? They build for the "average" car buyer, a dolt that barely knows that the thing needs fuel to keep running, much less oil changes or timing belts or other maintenance.

That low-information buyer is exactly the reason why GM eliminated temp gauges entirely years ago, in favor of a "your car is now broken" light for everything. When the light comes on, the problem has already caused severe damage usually. Be glad we have a gauge at all.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:48 pm 
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That is why I liked the 3 Jeep Cherokees that I owned. With the 4 gauges even though they may have not been accurate you at least knew there was a problem if they were out of the norm.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:29 pm 
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All I know is that the only way to accurately monitor your engine's temperature, without installing expensive equipment, is with an OBDII reader.

I simply do not trust the O.E. temperature gauge... a running temperature "just a tick left of center" does not mean anything to me. You might be correct - being on the highway 95% of the time - that an O.E. thermostat is O.K. for you, joelukex4. But for a proper reading during your time running down the highway you need to hook it up to an OBDII reader, or get an OBDII cable for your smartphone and download an OBDII application.

I am well aware that aluminum heads on iron blocks have been common on gasoline and many diesel engines for many years now. What you do not seen to be understanding is - due to the differences in thermal expansion of iron and aluminum - a properly operating cooling system with a well engineered bypass for even warm-up is critical for long term reliability of the cylinder head gasket.

The fact that the aluminum head/iron block arrangement in engine architecture is now common for both diesel and gasoline engines does not change the facts here. You change the cooling system circuits - especially the bypass circuit - from what the engineers designed, you are playing with fire... end of story.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:40 pm 
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geordi wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
The factory temp gauge sucks and doesn't give an accurate reading of temperature.
One tick to the left of center could be 175, 195, or 205. I've seen it myself using both my torquePro app and with a external temp probe.


I'm not disputing that - it is designed to operate exactly that way, because if the gauge was 100% accurate to temperature, then it would be waving back and forth as you were driving around. The chances of the average idiot car driver panicking about nothing at all are much higher.

It moves when the temp is outside of the designed "normal" range.

Yes, we as enthusiasts may want a more accurate gauge, but car manufacturers don't build things for the enthusiasts, do they? They build for the "average" car buyer, a dolt that barely knows that the thing needs fuel to keep running, much less oil changes or timing belts or other maintenance.

That low-information buyer is exactly the reason why GM eliminated temp gauges entirely years ago, in favor of a "your car is now broken" light for everything. When the light comes on, the problem has already caused severe damage usually. Be glad we have a gauge at all.

I have never noticed the temp gauges I have on other stuff doing the waving around thing

Explain that to me.

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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:54 pm 
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What other stuff are you referring to? Temperature changes in relation to load and cooling conditions. Running down the highway means excessive amounts of cold air (all air is cold when the engine is at 200 degrees) blowing across the radiator. Assuming that your temp gauge is calibrated to accept 200 degrees as "normal" then this amount of cooling air should pull the gauge needle down as the temperature drops. Highway operation is easy on an engine, only a handful of HP are required to maintain speed.

In city traffic, very little airflow is cooling the radiator and there is a lot of high-demand acceleration from starting-and-stopping driving. The fan may help move air, but chances are that the coolant will be 20-25 degrees higher than highway operation. If the temp gauge responded to this, people would think that their engines were overheating while being in city traffic, when they are not.

Climbing mountains is even more heavy loading than city traffic. The engine is working hard, adding more heat to the system. Only when the temperature rises outside the "normal" range is the gauge programmed to move - because THEN, the engine is actually starting to run hot. This is the only situation that requires the driver to alter their behavior - either by slowing down, stopping for a break, shifting gears... Etc. The engine is outside the normal safe range, so the temp gauge starts to indicate this.

But as long as the engine is within the range of acceptable temperatures, neither too cold nor too hot, then the gauge means very little.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:24 pm 
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geordi wrote:
What other stuff are you referring to? Temperature changes in relation to load and cooling conditions. Running down the highway means excessive amounts of cold air (all air is cold when the engine is at 200 degrees) blowing across the radiator. Assuming that your temp gauge is calibrated to accept 200 degrees as "normal" then this amount of cooling air should pull the gauge needle down as the temperature drops. Highway operation is easy on an engine, only a handful of HP are required to maintain speed.

In city traffic, very little airflow is cooling the radiator and there is a lot of high-demand acceleration from starting-and-stopping driving. The fan may help move air, but chances are that the coolant will be 20-25 degrees higher than highway operation. If the temp gauge responded to this, people would think that their engines were overheating while being in city traffic, when they are not.

Climbing mountains is even more heavy loading than city traffic. The engine is working hard, adding more heat to the system. Only when the temperature rises outside the "normal" range is the gauge programmed to move - because THEN, the engine is actually starting to run hot. This is the only situation that requires the driver to alter their behavior - either by slowing down, stopping for a break, shifting gears... Etc. The engine is outside the normal safe range, so the temp gauge starts to indicate this.

But as long as the engine is within the range of acceptable temperatures, neither too cold nor too hot, then the gauge means very little.


I mostly agree with this; however, geordi, you are not accounting for the fact that a properly operating thermostat valve will stroke open and closed in between fully closed and fully open during operation of the vehicle... it will operate within a range during normal operation. This will definitely even out temperature fluctuations in the engine.

In fact, when the other Jeff and I were testing our prototype 2 years ago, the OBDII reader in Jeff's CRD was hooked up and reading actual temperatures under a variety of driving conditions in different types of weather. Once his CRD was up to full operating temperature it stayed rock solid and unwavering at 203 degrees Fahrenheit. This is mainly because we followed the advice of the engineer at Stant Corporation that I consulted, and used a larger thermostat valve, (and a larger housing to match it), that allows for more coolant flow under high load/demand conditions.

The smaller the temperature fluctuations, the better the engine runs. This is the main reason why I put so much effort into developing the Model 001. We knew it would not be too difficult to get the engine temperature up, what we were mainly concerned with was overheating in hot weather and under heavy load conditions, and with temperature fluctuations. None of this occurred with the testing of the Model 001 prototype.


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 Post subject: Re: HELP! Engine running too cool
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:27 pm 
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geordi wrote:
What other stuff are you referring to? .
All the other vehicles and equipment that I have had in the last 40 years that had a temperature gauge. I never noticed the temperature gauge doing any wide fluctuations on any of them. From a 1963 Ford F100 to a 1998 K2500 6.5 diesel Suburban to tractors, combines and backhoes.

The only time I ever noticed a wide fluctuation was when something overheated.

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