group letter to CX...

kjfishman · **Posted:** Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:44 pm

I am on my second EGR related issue and plan on sending a lletter to :

Jeff Bell VP of Jeep Division
Daimler Chrysler Corp.
1000 Chrysler Drive
Auburn Hills, MI 48326

Thanks NJ KJ for the address.

I was thinking maybe we put together a letter from everyone from lost that has had EGR issues with VIN numbers to back it up. What do you think about this group approach,

Here is what I was thinking sending but we would tweak for a group approach.

My primary concern is the EGR related problems with the CRD. This is a very common problem with the CRD. I am on my second EGR related failure. My Jeep dealer has parts on order for my Jeep at this moment. I have long term concerns about this issue. Also related to this issue is the turbo charger being fouled with oil passed through the EGR.

Is Jeep working on a solution to this problem? If the problem is as simple as the CCV filters that some have installed and or fuel quality issues. If the CCV filter is the answer it should be installed at no cost to the consumer. The 15 ppm diesel fuel is not available widely yet, when it is will the EGR issues go away? Also if this problem continues how long will the repairs be covered under warranty?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I think if you're going to write the letter about concerns with the Liberty CRD, it might include a list of problems, in order of apparent frequency of failure:

1. Excessive engine oil blow-by from ineffective factory ccv system, injecting excessive amounts of engine oil into intercooler and intake system
2. EGR valve and associated air control valve failures (even in Europe), with some owners on their 3rd replacement, several on their 2nd
3. Transmission shudder issue, unresolved for nearly all affected CRD owners after 18 months of TSB updates
4. Glow plug failures, possibly related to EGR failures
5. Transmission torque converter failures reports of which are still accumulating
6. TSB's not being applied by some dealers, even when they address some of the above concerns
7. Turbocharger seals randomly leaking what appears to be excessive oil from bearing oil flow guides into the air intake and then on to the intercooler
8. CRD owners, due to lack of response from DCX, installing their own solutions to answer items #1 and 3, on new and less than one year old vehicles. Is this what DCX sees as a normal Jeep owner experience?

If you do enlist enough particpation, you might consider asking DCX if they would like to address these issues, or would they prefer the group forward the list (minus the VIN numbers) to a large number of the automotive press reporters, both online and print, to see which is more effective in bringing serious attention to the problems? Ask them how they intend to ensure that these same issues don't resurface for their new line of Grand Cherokee diesels?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:59 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

I think if you're going to write the letter about concerns with the Liberty CRD, it might include a list of problems, in order of apparent frequency of failure:

1. Excessive engine oil blow-by from ineffective factory ccv system, injecting excessive amounts of engine oil into intercooler and intake system
2. EGR valve and associated air control valve failures (even in Europe), with some owners on their 3rd replacement, several on their 2nd
3. Transmission shudder issue, unresolved for nearly all affected CRD owners after 18 months of TSB updates
4. Glow plug failures, possibly related to EGR failures
5. Transmission torque converter failures reports of which are still accumulating
6. TSB's not being applied by some dealers, even when they address some of the above concerns
7. Turbocharger seals randomly leaking what appears to be excessive oil from bearing oil flow guides into the air intake and then on to the intercooler
8. CRD owners, due to lack of response from DCX, installing their own solutions to answer items #1 and 3, on new and less than one year old vehicles. Is this what DCX sees as a normal Jeep owner experience?

If you do enlist enough particpation, you might consider asking DCX if they would like to address these issues, or would they prefer the group forward the list (minus the VIN numbers) to a large number of the automotive press reporters, both online and print, to see which is more effective in bringing serious attention to the problems? Ask them how they intend to ensure that these same issues don't resurface for their new line of Grand Cherokee diesels?

Thank you, this is much closer to my sentiments.

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

RFCRD wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

I think if you're going to write the letter about concerns with the Liberty CRD, it might include a list of problems, in order of apparent frequency of failure:

1. Excessive engine oil blow-by from ineffective factory ccv system, injecting excessive amounts of engine oil into intercooler and intake system
2. EGR valve and associated air control valve failures (even in Europe), with some owners on their 3rd replacement, several on their 2nd
3. Transmission shudder issue, unresolved for nearly all affected CRD owners after 18 months of TSB updates
4. Glow plug failures, possibly related to EGR failures
5. Transmission torque converter failures reports of which are still accumulating
6. TSB's not being applied by some dealers, even when they address some of the above concerns
7. Turbocharger seals randomly leaking what appears to be excessive oil from bearing oil flow guides into the air intake and then on to the intercooler
8. CRD owners, due to lack of response from DCX, installing their own solutions to answer items #1 and 3, on new and less than one year old vehicles. Is this what DCX sees as a normal Jeep owner experience?

If you do enlist enough particpation, you might consider asking DCX if they would like to address these issues, or would they prefer the group forward the list (minus the VIN numbers) to a large number of the automotive press reporters, both online and print, to see which is more effective in bringing serious attention to the problems? Ask them how they intend to ensure that these same issues don't resurface for their new line of Grand Cherokee diesels?

Thank you, this is much closer to my sentiments.

Guys, this is a great idea. Bad press on a large corporation unwilling to admit their oversights, and stupidity, in lieu of their supposed expertise is better than a lawsuit. Sometimes, they react quickly. This could kick a huge dent in their launch of the GC Diesel. But keep in mind, for anyone who participates in this, you are best off citing the problems with Liberty's that have NOT been modified (lift kits, etc ... ) in any way mechanically. Otherwise, you are deflating your own balloon right out of the gate. Whether or not doing modifications to the Libertys causes problems is a whole other debate ... I dont know and I dont care to committee it. However, it will most certainly be a public relations defense from DCX if you actually did go to the media and documented your service histories with clear, real, actual paper trails. So play it smart and don't let them brush this off as a small group of owners who neglect maintenance or tinker with their cars against the recomendations of the manufacturer.

I'd gladly participate - I have not done a single modification to my Liberty.

Reggie · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:23 am

You might even include my poll at the top of the forum that shows how common these problems are on the CRD. Considering the low milegae of most of the vehicles - 25k or less - I think it shows that there are some definate issues that DC has to address. The problem is that the 2.8L CRD and the liberty are going away and I doubt that DC is willing to invest time and money on something that will no longer be offered for sale. But count me in to show my unhappiness with their product.

Reggie · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:26 am

Oh, you might want to post this on some of the other CRD liberty forums like Edmunds to get more of a response. Maybe include the number and types of repairs with each VIN number like: VIN #xxxxxxxx - 1 EGR, 2 glowplugs, 2 ball joints, @ tranny shudder that dealer refuses to fix. Just a thought.....

GreggD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:59 am

I've had 2 EGR valve replacement, & as soon as the AFCV (Air Flow Control Valve), which is on DEEP BACKORDER by the way, comes in, it will have also been replaced twice. Something is up about this particular part as there are none to be had in the US. My Service Advisor was on the phone with DC's "Grand Poobah of Diesel Engines" last week when my Jeep was in the shop. The valve has an electric motor on it, which is what moves the butterfly. Well, the gears on that motor are PLASTIC, which is a big surprise to everyone. NOT! The GP said that the part has been redesigned, hopefully the gears will be made from something more durable.

I don't beleive for a minute that the lame BS "official reason" DC pulled the diesel engine option from the Liberty, citing that it couldn't meet the new EPA regs. The Real Reason: It's because of all the problems that they've had. I went to VM Motori's web page recently, & found something on one of their automotive engines: something that looks like a ProVent on the side of one of the engines. For anyone who wishes to see for themselves go to the web site.

hhtp://www.vmmotori.it/en/index.jsp. Click on the automotive tab at the top, go down about mid ways of the page & click on brochure automotive. It's in .pdf format. Go to page 3. You'll see the 425 OHV, as well as several other engines. The ProVent is quite visible.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:38 am

GreggD wrote:

I don't beleive for a minute that the lame BS "official reason" DC pulled the diesel engine option from the Liberty, citing that it couldn't meet the new EPA regs. The Real Reason: It's because of all the problems that they've had. I went to VM Motori's web page recently, & found something on one of their automotive engines: something that looks like a ProVent on the side of one of the engines. For anyone who wishes to see for themselves go to the web site.

hhtp://www.vmmotori.it/en/index.jsp. Click on the automotive tab at the top, go down about mid ways of the page & click on brochure automotive. It's in .pdf format. Go to page 3. You'll see the 425 OHV, as well as several other engines. The ProVent is quite visible.

You nailed this one. I did know how the DC reps would react to the Provent on my engine when I had to meet with them 2 weeks ago so I printed the same document along with the engineering brochure from the Provent website. Actually circled the CCV filters on each picture as I flipped the pages to show them. They had no comment, just walked outside to look over my install. This package is a warranty pig and they know it. Just makes me wonder if consumer laws are more lax or buyers more tolerant to this kind of treatment in other parts of the world where these vehicles are sold.

Ripster · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:42 am

Page 12 and you will see the CCV Puck starting on the European versions also.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:05 am

Ripster wrote:

Page 12 and you will see the CCV Puck starting on the European versions also.

Fortunately they had seen enough by about page 8 to get my point, didn't have to go that far. They did however keep the Provent literature.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:35 am

RFCRD wrote:

GreggD wrote:

I don't beleive for a minute that the lame BS "official reason" DC pulled the diesel engine option from the Liberty, citing that it couldn't meet the new EPA regs. The Real Reason: It's because of all the problems that they've had. I went to VM Motori's web page recently, & found something on one of their automotive engines: something that looks like a ProVent on the side of one of the engines. For anyone who wishes to see for themselves go to the web site.

hhtp://www.vmmotori.it/en/index.jsp. Click on the automotive tab at the top, go down about mid ways of the page & click on brochure automotive. It's in .pdf format. Go to page 3. You'll see the 425 OHV, as well as several other engines. The ProVent is quite visible.

You nailed this one. I did know how the DC reps would react to the Provent on my engine when I had to meet with them 2 weeks ago so I printed the same document along with the engineering brochure from the Provent website. Actually circled the CCV filters on each picture as I flipped the pages to show them. They had no comment, just walked outside to look over my install. This package is a warranty pig and they know it. Just makes me wonder if consumer laws are more lax or buyers more tolerant to this kind of treatment in other parts of the world where these vehicles are sold.

Before you get too wired up for this meeting or letter writting be sure you are talking about the correct engine. The 425 OHV is an Over Head Valve engine and has not been used by D/C. The engines D/C has used are on pages 12 & 13 and are DOHC engines, the engine on page 13 is one we currently have and the one on page 12 is previous engine used, neither one however shows a ProVent installed.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

neither one however shows a ProVent installed.

It won't matter if the factory ccv is shown to be ineffective and the cause of excessive oil getting into the intercooler and intake system. Anyone who has had an intercooler replaced could help by keeping the dealer repair order showing the repairs necessary so early in the life of the vehicle. If the data keeps coming in showing excessive oil in the intake system, including the IC, then there isn't any action left but to find the source and reason for excessive oil.

GreggD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:48 pm

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

GreggD wrote:

I don't beleive for a minute that the lame BS "official reason" DC pulled the diesel engine option from the Liberty, citing that it couldn't meet the new EPA regs. The Real Reason: It's because of all the problems that they've had. I went to VM Motori's web page recently, & found something on one of their automotive engines: something that looks like a ProVent on the side of one of the engines. For anyone who wishes to see for themselves go to the web site.

hhtp://www.vmmotori.it/en/index.jsp. Click on the automotive tab at the top, go down about mid ways of the page & click on brochure automotive. It's in .pdf format. Go to page 3. You'll see the 425 OHV, as well as several other engines. The ProVent is quite visible.

You nailed this one. I did know how the DC reps would react to the Provent on my engine when I had to meet with them 2 weeks ago so I printed the same document along with the engineering brochure from the Provent website. Actually circled the CCV filters on each picture as I flipped the pages to show them. They had no comment, just walked outside to look over my install. This package is a warranty pig and they know it. Just makes me wonder if consumer laws are more lax or buyers more tolerant to this kind of treatment in other parts of the world where these vehicles are sold.

Before you get too wired up for this meeting or letter writting be sure you are talking about the correct engine. The 425 OHV is an Over Head Valve engine and has not been used by D/C. The engines D/C has used are on pages 12 & 13 and are DOHC engines, the engine on page 13 is one we currently have and the one on page 12 is previous engine used, neither one however shows a ProVent installed.

Walt, I realize that the 425 OHV isn't the one that's used in the US Liberty. (I think the engine on page 12, the R425 DOHC, is the one they use in Europe.) I was simply pointing out that VM is putting the ProVent, or whatever it is, on other engines they make. I wonder if those engines are having the same problem that the R428 is.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:24 pm

GreggD wrote:

Walt, I realize that the 425 OHV isn't the one that's used in the US Liberty. (I think the engine on page 12, the R425 DOHC, is the one they use in Europe.) I was simply pointing out that VM is putting the ProVent, or whatever it is, on other engines they make. I wonder if those engines are having the same problem that the R428 is.

I'm not sure where those engines are used (countries) or for what type of vehicles such as commercial, public or military. The real problem is that D/C would say it not related or the same engine and throw the comparrison out the door as would a judge in a court most likely. The problem is really easy to fix and as someone said why should we have to do it aftermarket style and risk dealer denial of warranty.

What bugs the crap out of me is it seems it has not been a problem apparently in Europe. What the heck is the difference? Do they not have a CCV like ours putting the oil into the IC? Or do they just except the problem? We are only talking about maybe a 1/2 qt in 10,000 miles or less for most of u which is not a lot of oil in reality, and it only seems to be a real problem if it mixes with soot. Soot is something that is almost done away with when using ULSD so maybe the EGR related problems will disappear in a few months for us also, that leaves the oil problem. I'm wondering about the hoses supplied and why they seep oil and get soft, when the hoses VW uses seem to suffer no effect from the oil exposure. Also the VW hoses are designed to have an equal pressure clamp at specific point on the hose. The CRD on the other hand still has 1950's radiator hoses and clamps, who cares if the clamps are stamped MB, they are the wrong type of clamp to use on the CAC system.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:03 pm

oldnavy wrote:

GreggD wrote:

Walt, I realize that the 425 OHV isn't the one that's used in the US Liberty. (I think the engine on page 12, the R425 DOHC, is the one they use in Europe.) I was simply pointing out that VM is putting the ProVent, or whatever it is, on other engines they make. I wonder if those engines are having the same problem that the R428 is.

I'm not sure where those engines are used (countries) or for what type of vehicles such as commercial, public or military. The real problem is that D/C would say it not related or the same engine and throw the comparrison out the door as would a judge in a court most likely. The problem is really easy to fix and as someone said why should we have to do it aftermarket style and risk dealer denial of warranty.

What bugs the crap out of me is it seems it has not been a problem apparently in Europe. What the heck is the difference? Do they not have a CCV like ours putting the oil into the IC? Or do they just except the problem? We are only talking about maybe a 1/2 qt in 10,000 miles or less for most of u which is not a lot of oil in reality, and it only seems to be a real problem if it mixes with soot. Soot is something that is almost done away with when using ULSD so maybe the EGR related problems will disappear in a few months for us also, that leaves the oil problem. I'm wondering about the hoses supplied and why they seep oil and get soft, when the hoses VW uses seem to suffer no effect from the oil exposure. Also the VW hoses are designed to have an equal pressure clamp at specific point on the hose. The CRD on the other hand still has 1950's radiator hoses and clamps, who cares if the clamps are stamped MB, they are the wrong type of clamp to use on the CAC system.

Even without the EGR soot compounding the problem, the damage that a wet CAC can cause is well known in diesel engineering circles. The most important thing to note on the VM Motori photos is that they (DC, including Detroit Diesel & VM Motori) have experience with both types of CCV systems. Somebody at DC (either engineer or beancounter) made a cognitive decision to use one CCV system over the other in building this vehicle resulting in a poor outcome. Judging by the silicone liners in the CAC hoses, I would suspect they made a cognitive decision to let this oil pass through. I remember reading in the late 70's when GM introduced their 5.7L diesels how their fuel filters were designed to pass water in small amounts as to not damage in injection pump. You all know how well that bright idea worked. DC made some cognitive decisions with the Liberty CRD that will cost them too.

GreggD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:36 pm

oldnavy wrote:

GreggD wrote:

Walt, I realize that the 425 OHV isn't the one that's used in the US Liberty. (I think the engine on page 12, the R425 DOHC, is the one they use in Europe.) I was simply pointing out that VM is putting the ProVent, or whatever it is, on other engines they make. I wonder if those engines are having the same problem that the R428 is.

I'm not sure where those engines are used (countries) or for what type of vehicles such as commercial, public or military. The real problem is that D/C would say it not related or the same engine and throw the comparrison out the door as would a judge in a court most likely. The problem is really easy to fix and as someone said why should we have to do it aftermarket style and risk dealer denial of warranty.

What bugs the crap out of me is it seems it has not been a problem apparently in Europe. What the heck is the difference? Do they not have a CCV like ours putting the oil into the IC? Or do they just except the problem? We are only talking about maybe a 1/2 qt in 10,000 miles or less for most of u which is not a lot of oil in reality, and it only seems to be a real problem if it mixes with soot. Soot is something that is almost done away with when using ULSD so maybe the EGR related problems will disappear in a few months for us also, that leaves the oil problem. I'm wondering about the hoses supplied and why they seep oil and get soft, when the hoses VW uses seem to suffer no effect from the oil exposure. Also the VW hoses are designed to have an equal pressure clamp at specific point on the hose. The CRD on the other hand still has 1950's radiator hoses and clamps, who cares if the clamps are stamped MB, they are the wrong type of clamp to use on the CAC system.

Walt, I'll grant you that the engines that have that "whatever it is" put on them may be used in something other than an automotive use as you suggest. DC & a Judge may say it's all irrelevent, & throw the arguement out with the wash water. If the parts on the European CRD's are the same, then the difference may very well be the ULSD. If not, then who knows?

What sort of clamp needs to be on the CAC system. I also wondered why they used something antiquated.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:58 pm

I would say there's one other item to add to the list of problem's encountered in the group letter.

9. Poorly designed/marginal air filter/intake setup resulting in restricted air intake from road debris/water, causing turbocharger oil seal failure and gross oil contamination of the CAC system, contributing to EGR/AFC failure.

So far, there seems to be three main points that hopefully will solve most of the problems with this beast.

1. ULSD

2. CCV Filter/Oil Separator

3. "Restriction-proof" air intake.

I'd have to add my friend in TX to the failed turbo seal category. Having seen what does pass thru the CCV, as collected by the Provent, only way he could have had that much LIQUID oil in his CAC system was from bad turbo seals.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:57 pm

GreggD wrote:

What sort of clamp needs to be on the CAC system. I also wondered why they used something antiquated.

If you look at your radiator hoses you will see an example of a the clamp I am talking about, below are links to examples.

1. http://www.tyton.com/snap_clamp.asp

2. http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/462911/981

GreggD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:27 pm

oldnavy wrote:

GreggD wrote:

What sort of clamp needs to be on the CAC system. I also wondered why they used something antiquated.

If you look at your radiator hoses you will see an example of a the clamp I am talking about, below are links to examples.

1. http://www.tyton.com/snap_clamp.asp

2. http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/462911/981

Well feed me garlic & call me an undertaker! I have the ones mentioned at the #2 link on my lawnmower fuel & hydraulic hoses. They're also fairly common in automotive fuel hoses as well. I've cut my knuckles on them many times.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Dear Jeff Bell,

I am basically happy with my CRD. I now have over 28k miles and it has been in the shop only once (EGR) beyond normal maint. There are some things I would like changed and I believe Jeep should be more responsive to customer queries. If you would contact me I would be happy to advise.

VT Dog

P.S. Please give the purchase price back to the 6 or so whiners who constantly have complaints and worry incessantly about every little squeak, thump, or possible-maybe (down the road) problem that might arise. Since they won't do like Diesel Inferno and get rid of a car they don't trust, buy it back and make everyone happy.

group letter to CX...

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