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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:29 am 
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Hmmmm. If this turns out to be a fuel issue, I think I forsee a lift pump install party. . . . :BANANA:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:55 am 
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Yes, and if does turn out to be a lift pump issue, then you definitely do not need one that is hefty priced, labor intensive, located in the tank version.

A simple economical inline flow thru lift pump, requiring 20 minutes to install, is the logical way to go.

And the problem is solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:25 pm 
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racertracer wrote:
Yes, and if does turn out to be a lift pump issue, then you definitely do not need one that is hefty priced, labor intensive, located in the tank version.

A simple economical inline flow thru lift pump, requiring 20 minutes to install, is the logical way to go.

And the problem is solved.


I just ordered a fuel head and thermo today from moparparts... perhaps I better get the line pump too. The would seem to indicate the only other air leaks can be at the top of the tank... I guess the right pump would still deliver solid fuel though right?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:49 pm 
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Using the "Mr Gasket" style of inline flow-thru pump from your local parts hut (~$40) and installing it by cutting the outgoing fuel line at the bottom-exterior of the tank... You end up with the following result:

The complete elimination of any air pockets in any section of the fuel system forward of the tank, including the top of the original style fuel filter head. The air that is naturally within the fuel itself, and any possible air leaks that may exist in the fuel line fittings will no longer be an issue.

Our fuel lines are the same as for a pressure-based system (The gassers) and are NOT designed to maintain a proper seal under a vacuum from our very powerful CP3 gear pump. As such, this is the main reason for bubbles in the fuel line developing and collecting at the natural high point in the system - The filter head.

I personally have NOT changed to the new style fuel filter head, as there is only one primary redesign between the two: The fuel heater and the plastic surrounding that heater. Since my heater has been unplugged from the first day I owned the CRD (and it isn't cracked) and has not leaked a drop since I installed my own Mr Gasket pump at the tank... Why screw with something that works? I credit the lift pump with eliminating any air-in-fuel issues, up to and including the lack of a repeat of my own vapor locked fuel system from a couple years ago.

As always, YMMV, but why spend $200 more and have the hassle of dropping the tank for an in-tank version when the external works just great? The minor possibility of an air leak between the external pump and the pickup in the tank is easy for that external pump to handle, and after that... Only lightly pressurized solid fuel delivery to all the other components. As a separate bonus, if you ever need to pump out the tank due to someone putting gasoline into it, the Mr Gasket makes that easy - Just unhook the line at the filter inlet and run it into a bucket.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Had to work a whole day today,so I got off and put everything I took off yesterday,back together.
Drained some oil to check for metal shavings of which there was none.
Added a quart of oil.
Pulled the plugs on the injectors and turned her over.

Sweetest sound I ever heard.The normal turning over of the 2.8L :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA:


Talk to me boys.This is good,right?

What the hell is vapor lock and why would it cause such violent reactions in the engine.
Seriously,I thought that bad boy was shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:50 pm 
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vapor lock is the fuel vaporizing when it's supposed to be liquid - common issue on carburetor gas engines.

A vacuum system makes it worse, pressurized injector systems normally eliminate it.

I'm not real sure how it could happen on the diesel - maybe pockets of vaporized/liquid fuel going into the injectors causing misfiring?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:02 pm 
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KJ 119 wrote:
Had to work a whole day today,so I got off and put everything I took off yesterday,back together.
Drained some oil to check for metal shavings of which there was none.
Added a quart of oil.
Pulled the plugs on the injectors and turned her over.

Sweetest sound I ever heard.The normal turning over of the 2.8L :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA:


Talk to me boys.This is good,right?

What the hell is vapor lock and why would it cause such violent reactions in the engine.
Seriously,I thought that bad boy was shot.

:pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper:

Yes indeed that is happy news!

To answer your question, from wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:
Vapor lock was far more common in older gasoline fuel systems incorporating a low-pressure mechanical fuel pump driven by the engine, located in the engine compartment and feeding a carburetor. Such pumps were typically located higher than the fuel tank, were directly heated by the engine and fed fuel directly to the float bowl inside the carburetor. Fuel was drawn under negative pressure from the feed line, increasing the risk of a vapor lock developing between the tank and pump. A vapor lock being drawn into the fuel pump could disrupt the fuel pressure long enough for the float chamber in the carburetor to partially or completely drain, causing fuel starvation in the engine. Even temporary disruption of fuel supply into the float chamber is not ideal; most carburetors are designed to run at a fixed level of fuel in the float bowl and reducing the level will reduce the fuel to air mixture delivered to the engine.

The higher the volatility of the fuel, the more likely it is that vapor lock will occur. Historically, gasoline was a more volatile distillate than it is now and was more prone to vapor lock. Conversely, diesel fuel is far less volatile than gasoline and thus these engines hardly ever suffer from vapor lock. However, diesel engine fuel systems are far more susceptible to air locks in their fuel lines as standard diesel fuel injection pumps rely on the fuel being non-compressible. Air locks are caused by air leaking into the fuel delivery line or entering from the tank rather than the fuel evaporating in the system. Eliminating such air locks requires an extended period of turning over the engine using the starter motor or manually bleeding the system. One of the avenues that is available to diesels is a fuel system that filters the fuel from air/vapor before reaching the engine. Therefore stalling your engine or making it hard to start.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock

So the solution seems to be to eliminate that air lock problem, put a lift pump next to the tank and plumb it in on the outlet line heading to the engine. A less than 10 psi Mr Gasket type pump is what I have on mine, and no problems since the install.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:49 pm 
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Well allright! :pepper: :BANANA: :pepper: :BANANA: :pepper:


Talk to me Big Jim,where do I find such a pump.This works with oem filter head,correct?
There happens to be one for sale here,and I'd like to jump on it.


Oh yea baby,this brewski tastes better today. :rockon:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:40 pm 
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:BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA:

Awesome, Bub! Man I'm so glad the Tuff Puppy ain't fried.

Try http://www.napaonline.com and see if they have one, or google Mr. Gasket. Holla if you want to make it a lift pump party, I may just want to go ahead and put one on mine too to avoid this same issue.

Did you try starting it again yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:08 pm 
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linewarbr wrote:
:BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA:

Did you try starting it again yet?


No,don't plan on it till I get the filter head and pump.If at all possible.




You guys are the best!

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:07 am 
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Hey Bub... Your local chain parts shop should have these hanging on the wall, probably behind the counter. I got mine at Advance Auto, but Autozone, PepBoys, Checkers, Napa... They should all carry them. This will work with ANY style of the engine's filter manager head... Because it will be supplying fuel right from the tank, just like every other vehicle out there already has. Leave it to the bean counters to remove a useful part in the name of cost savings. Like GM's transmission drain plug all over again. :roll:

The main thing is that it doesn't have to be a "Mr Gasket" brand name, they all kinda look the same. Check the package for the specific pressure output, and the delivery should be about 30 gallons per hour at 4-7 psi, which is perfect for our systems.

Image

Installation is simple, I did it in about 15 minutes in a parking lot while on a day trip. Trace the fuel line that runs from the tank up to the filter, the other one is the return line. Leave the return alone, you don't want to mess with that. The sending line however... Pick a spot on the plastic line that looks promising for easy access, and cut it in half. Don't disconnect the ends, you are using the line in-place. Oh yea... You will now be bathing in diesel fuel, so be ready for a shower. Biodiesel makes great conditioner, BTW. :-)r

Take a decent length of fuel line hose from the parts store (I bought 2 feet of it, IIRC it was 3/8 ID hose - 1/4 will NOT fit) and shove that over the plastic line with at least a 2 inch overlap. Use 2 hose clamps on each connection to the plastic line... Especially the side that is now going to be pressurized. Don't ask me how I know that little tidbit, but it was messy.

Then just connect the fuel hose to the pump (get the direction right) and use a couple of self-tapping screws to secure it to the underside of the body. Make sure you are screwing it into the body... And not that convenient vertical surface just to the rear of your work area. I didn't learn that one the hard way, but I'm reasonably sure it would ruin your day. :mrgreen:

Wiring... LW will have to help you with the wiring if you go for the under-the-seat already existing wire. I don't know where that one is. I ran a dedicated positive supply wire all the way to the engine fuse box and cheater-plugged it into the pump relay's power pin. (I think it was pin 87 on the relay) When the key is on, the pump will start right up and do it's thing. In your case, it probably wouldn't be the worst to let the pump run by itself for a good minute before trying to crank the engine, but the pump cannot supply fuel beyond the low-pressure-and-lubricating-pass-thru of the CP3. So if the bubbles are in the high pressure lines... You are just gonna have to crank the engine until they get pushed through.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:43 am 
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Well, it sounds like there are no mechanical problems...most likely fuel at this point. If you are not worried about diesel fuel, the easiest way to purge out large amounts of air is to try starting the engine while loosening each fuel line at the injector to let the air out. It only takes a little turn for fuel to start coming out, so you need to be careful here. Make sure to prime and purge prior to cranking, this job needs two people to be most effective. If is still runs poorly after verifying fuel to all the injectors...it would be adviseable to drain the tank and get fresh fuel to rule out contamination. Good luck

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:50 am 
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GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
Well, it sounds like there are no mechanical problems...most likely fuel at this point. If you are not worried about diesel fuel, the easiest way to purge out large amounts of air is to try starting the engine while loosening each fuel line at the injector to let the air out. It only takes a little turn for fuel to start coming out, so you need to be careful here. Make sure to prime and purge prior to cranking, this job needs two people to be most effective. If is still runs poorly after verifying fuel to all the injectors...it would be adviseable to drain the tank and get fresh fuel to rule out contamination. Good luck



Will do Keith.I've got a new fliter head assembly/filter on the way from Changingtime,and I'm going to hunt down the pump that Geordi is suggesting.

CRD Band of Brothers.We're in it together. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:07 am 
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So, what was the outcome? Is the Jeep running again?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:26 pm 
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linewarbr wrote:
So, what was the outcome? Is the Jeep running again?


Naw D,I've got a new filter and head on the way from changingtime,that was shipped out Saturday,and just got back from Advance Auto and nabbed up the Mr Gasket diesel fuel pump that Jim suggested(59.99+tax).

Just read the back and it sais "Not for Marine use",which leads me to believe that it isn't rated for stuff like this:









Image
Image
Image
Image
Image




Should I go see what Bent Marine's got on hand?,or do you think it pertains to the salt?
I've been stuck in high water before.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Bub,

I see you decided to swap it out for a Mercury Outboard! Good move.


Here is the manufacturers web link of the pump with specs.

http://www.facet-purolator.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=35

Eliminates vapor lock

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:24 pm 
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KJ 119 wrote:
linewarbr wrote:
So, what was the outcome? Is the Jeep running again?


Naw D,I've got a new filter and head on the way from changingtime,that was shipped out Saturday,and just got back from Advance Auto and nabbed up the Mr Gasket diesel fuel pump that Jim suggested(59.99+tax).

Just read the back and it sais "Not for Marine use",which leads me to believe that it isn't rated for stuff like this:

Should I go see what Bent Marine's got on hand?,or do you think it pertains to the salt?
I've been stuck in high water before.


Bub... There are easier ways I've found to cross rivers. They call them bridges. :mrgreen:

You should be OK with that pump, the "not for marine" is (IMHO) that it isn't designed for the corrosive salt or possibly being used while fully immersed full-time. Maybe you want to get a boat for the "deeper" adventures?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:03 pm 
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racertracer wrote:
Bub,
Here is the manufacturers web link of the pump with specs.
http://www.facet-purolator.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=35
Eliminates vapor lock


Realy like this one, plastic body and sealed electronics so no need to enclose this one in a marine or waterproof box.... $45+$8 for shipping on EB :D

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:30 am 
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From what I understand, the Facet and the Mr Gasket are the same pump from the same place. I could be wrong about that, but I tell people about the Mr Gasket name b/c it is easier to find that at the parts shops. Seems like Mr Gasket is the retail packaging for that pump.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Help!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:52 pm 
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geordi wrote:
From what I understand, the Facet and the Mr Gasket are the same pump from the same place. I could be wrong about that, but I tell people about the Mr Gasket name b/c it is easier to find that at the parts shops. Seems like Mr Gasket is the retail packaging for that pump.


Indeed it is.The pump looks sealed at the wiring connection,and of course the pump itself is sealed.
Mr. Gasket it is. :BANANA:

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