LOST JEEPS :: View topic - retmil46 Lift Pump and Fuel Cooler Topic

oldnavy wrote:

Cowpie1 wrote:

I can understand having a cooler in a vacuum situation that is part of the CRD fuel system and using a lift pump setup. But wouldn't a inline electric fuel pump at about 5 psi do all that is needed? It would keep a constant pressure to the fuel filter and eliminate a vacuum situation and, with that eliminated, a fuel cooler less necessary.

This would be similar to my semi. Just a thought.

But you semi is using older technology then your CRD as far as fuel pressure goes I will assume (yes, I know what it spells) and these high pressures means the returning fuel has been heated by the high compression fuel IP and should be cooled before returning to the tank, except in cold weather. Our '02 automatic VW TDI, which has a higher pressure pump then the manual tranny model, had a return fuel cooler as standard equipment and was thermostatic controled. This helps to prevent the fuel from breaking down and releasing bubbles into the fuel and a mirried of other problems when the fuel overheats.

Don't think older technology. 2006 Cummins ISX engine. Fuel gets pretty dog gone warm in my semi tanks. Expecially when I get down to a low level. There is considerable hot fuel coming back to the tanks from that 14L engine. They will vapor water that comes in contact with the external surfaces of the tanks.

Either way, it seemed that providing an inline pump that provided about 4.5 - 5 psi would eliminate 90% of the problem some experience with air in fuel. Just eliminating the vacuum condition from tank to fuel filter would go a long ways. Pushing the fuel would be far better than sucking it. At least going that route first would be far more inexpensive and less time consuming. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Not always, but sure worth a look see. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure instead of a pound of prevention worth an ounce of cure. If hot fuel was still causing a problem, then look into a fix for that.

A simple to install inline pump would go a long ways, and problably cure most of the problems that some experience. there will always be a few that need more than that. Having a inline pump solution posted here for most users would be a big plus. Then having addtional fixes for the few would be icing on the cake. Heck, some here have never experienced (including me) air in the fuel problems, having to reprime, etc. I am looking at an inline pump solution just to ease my mind on the suction condition. Compared to the larger task of lift pump and cooler, it is like doing your EHM (thanks for that!) as opposed to a Provent.

Author:	jaydude02 [ Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:
Cowpie1 wrote: oldnavy wrote: Cowpie1 wrote: I can understand having a cooler in a vacuum situation that is part of the CRD fuel system and using a lift pump setup. But wouldn't a inline electric fuel pump at about 5 psi do all that is needed? It would keep a constant pressure to the fuel filter and eliminate a vacuum situation and, with that eliminated, a fuel cooler less necessary. This would be similar to my semi. Just a thought. But you semi is using older technology then your CRD as far as fuel pressure goes I will assume (yes, I know what it spells) and these high pressures means the returning fuel has been heated by the high compression fuel IP and should be cooled before returning to the tank, except in cold weather. Our '02 automatic VW TDI, which has a higher pressure pump then the manual tranny model, had a return fuel cooler as standard equipment and was thermostatic controled. This helps to prevent the fuel from breaking down and releasing bubbles into the fuel and a mirried of other problems when the fuel overheats. Don't think older technology. 2006 Cummins ISX engine. Fuel gets pretty dog gone warm in my semi tanks. Expecially when I get down to a low level. There is considerable hot fuel coming back to the tanks from that 14L engine. They will vapor water that comes in contact with the external surfaces of the tanks. Either way, it seemed that providing an inline pump that provided about 4.5 - 5 psi would eliminate 90% of the problem some experience with air in fuel. Just eliminating the vacuum condition from tank to fuel filter would go a long ways. Pushing the fuel would be far better than sucking it. At least going that route first would be far more inexpensive and less time consuming. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Not always, but sure worth a look see. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure instead of a pound of prevention worth an ounce of cure. If hot fuel was still causing a problem, then look into a fix for that. A simple to install inline pump would go a long ways, and problably cure most of the problems that some experience. there will always be a few that need more than that. Having a inline pump solution posted here for most users would be a big plus. Then having addtional fixes for the few would be icing on the cake. Heck, some here have never experienced (including me) air in the fuel problems, having to reprime, etc. I am looking at an inline pump solution just to ease my mind on the suction condition. Compared to the larger task of lift pump and cooler, it is like doing your EHM (thanks for that!) as opposed to a Provent. i like your idea very much (simplicity). my only concern is to try and find the right pump that wont over pressurize the filter head (this thing is weak to the point where it says in the manual not to force the plunger when priming)

Author:	flash7210 [ Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:58 pm ]
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[/quote] i like your idea very much (simplicity). my only concern is to try and find the right pump that wont over pressurize the filter head (this thing is weak to the point where it says in the manual not to force the plunger when priming)[/quote] Although this might throw simplicity out the window, here is what I am thinking... Add a fuel return line (smaller diameter with a check valve) between the filter and the CP3. This would help bleed off excess pressure and trapped air (if any). Or you could have some sort of rheostat on the + side of the lift pump (mounted on the dash) with a fuel pressure gauge so you could vary the pump speed and dial in the desired amount of fuel pressure.

Author:	Cowpie1 [ Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:38 pm ]
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I discussed all of this with Joe Boyer at Stanadyne Corp. I posted his comments http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=23629 Joe is one of the big money guys at Stanadyne. He was quite clear that the CRD system is NOT, I repeat, NOT flawed. The Bosch injection pump is designed to operate the way the CRD is set up. Yes... a suction from tank, thru filter, to pump. They checked out the CRD system and it needs no modification. Only concern was the filter head assembly O ring seal material. He was clear that the law of unintended consequences will come into play if we modify the fuel delivery system in any way. While a lot of the ideas tossed around here sound good in theory, they do not work that well in practice. I discussed lift pumps, coolers, filtration changes, etc with him. He was very clear that all of this not a good option. While he agreed the filter may not be perfect, and that the O ring seals may be of a antiquated material, He was very clear that we should not modify the system in any way. Since they are a major player in fuel injection and sytems, and would be more than happy to sell me a setup, by telling me not to change the setup in the CRD means something. If you want to dispute this... call Joe Boyer at 618-345-8901.

Author:	retmil46 [ Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:42 pm ]
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I wonder if someone from DC had a "discussion" with Joe and Stanadyne long before you called him.

Author:	Goglio704 [ Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:19 pm ]
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The gentleman from Stanadyne is simply refraining from throwing rocks at the competition. It is the gentlemanly way of doing business. Stanadyne and Bosch are major competitors. He probably really doesn't care what we do with our Bosch systems, but he doesn't want to get involved either. The grief could easily outweigh the profit, and paybacks would be ugly.

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retmil46 Lift Pump and Fuel Cooler Topic http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23117	Page 2 of 2

Author:	crdmike [ Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:04 pm ]
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Here's what Joe Bucks is up against (from his company web site): Because of the relative importance of our largest customers and the high degree of concentration with OEMs in the off-highway and automotive industries, our business is exposed to a high degree of risk related to customer concentration. Our top five customers generated 58% of net sales in 2004. None of our top customers are obligated to continue to produce the engines which require our products or renew their contracts with us when they expire. A substantial decrease in orders from DaimlerChrysler, Deere, General Motors or Tritec could have a material adverse effect on us. Even if we maintain our relationships, our net sales concentration as a result of these relationships increases the potential impact to our business that could result from any changes in the economic terms of that relationship. Any change in our relationships could have a material impact on our financial position and results of operations. Any changes could, for example, result in decreased sales which would materially adversely affect our net sales. Relationships with our customers for the development of new products are also important and our net sales will be significantly diminished if we fail to maintain these prospective development relationships. In addition, because our customer base is highly concentrated and the maintenance of these relationships is of significant importance to us, from time to time we may find it necessary to allow price reductions as to certain of our products. If we were unable to reach agreement on pricing with one or more of our major customers, or if we were forced to accept an economic arrangement in which pricing was materially lower than in our past experience, our sales and profitability would be materially harmed.

Author:	retmil46 [ Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:34 am ]
Post subject:
For those of you that are concerned about the effects of a fuel cooler in cold northern winter temps, I think I might have a DIY automatic solution. Looking at www.haydenauto.com , they sell 4 different types of thermostat controllers to go along with the electric fans they market. One of them is nothing more that a simple on/off thermostat with a temperature probe, adjustable from 32 F up to nearly 200 F. Advance Auto carries this same thermostat under the Imperial name for around $35. Also, I remember from my years of idly browsing JC Whitney and other parts catalogs, that they make electrically operated fuel tank selector valves, for pickups and larger trucks that have more than one permanently installed fuel tank, such that the driver can switch fuel tanks from inside the cab while driving. Pollak is one brand name I remember. Here's the idea - with the fuel cooler installed in the return line, install one of the fuel tank selector valves in the incoming line to the cooler. Plumb the selector valve such that when deenergized it directs flow around the cooler and back to the tank - allowing hot return fuel to warm up the tank-, and when energized directs flow thru the cooler before returning to the tank - cooling the return fuel and preventing the tank from being warmed up any further once it's at or above the desired temp. Install the Hayden thermostat so that the temp probe is tystrapped to the supply line to the filter and injection pump. The temp of the fuel going thru the supply line should be at or close to the temp of the fuel in the tank itself. Wire the thermostat such that when it exceeds the set temp, it activates the fuel selector valve and directs return fuel from the engine thru the fuel cooler. Adjust the temp setting of the thermostat to whatever temperature suits you. During the winter you'll have hot return fuel from the engine warming up the fuel tank along with the electric heater in the filter in the supply to the engine, and during the summer you'll have the fuel cooler removing unwanted heat from the return fuel before it goes back to the tank, all operating automatically.

Author:	Inet_CRD [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:13 pm ]
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I wonder if the whole winter/cooler thing is really that much of an issue. If you park your CRD outside in -35, the whole fuel system is already that cold and it's expected to start (and flow fuel) with only seconds of glow time. If you have a full tank of diesel, it's going to take hours to warm it up by driving and probably then not very much since the tank and especially all the fuel lines act as radiators when it's that cold. The diesel that is sold in cold climates should be rated to have a cloud point and certainly a pour point set to below -40. I'm just wondering if it really matters that you have a cooler that is on all the time especially with a lift pump. It seems to me that hot fuel is more of a problem than cold and a cooler won't make it any colder than ambient air temp anyway. In my 16 plus years of driving diesel I've never ever had any problems with fuel gelling, no matter how cold is has gotten. Having said that, and reading some of the posts here, maybe fuel quality (pour/cloud point) is not as good in the States? Have others had problems with fuel gelling in the winter? I know when Cummins trucks were first being sold here (Late 80's) that if it was winter, the first thing the dealers would do is drain the summer diesel out and fill the trucks with winter diesel or they would gel up.

Author:	Cowcatcher [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:49 pm ]
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I am a little south of you and I have never had jelling issues or fuel quality problems. That being said, there was a local school bus fleet that was part of a federal government B20 test program that had to discontinue the program in December of '05 due to cold fuel issues. I burned the same B20 well after that and in colder weather without issues.

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:28 pm ]
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The DeRale series of auxilliary coolers are coupled with a thermostatically-controlled fan, presettable - ~125bucks That particular type of fuel manager system on the CRD is out of place - literally - it is intended to be mounted down low at fuel tank level so a constant head of fuel is available above the unit head - the fuel inlet and outlet are both on the top of the head, which allows air bubbles nowhere to go, even if a lift pump is installed before the unit - that system works best down low - it was placed high to ease owner satisfaction and driveability complaints after filter changes - a well-engineered unit, designed to be mounted above the fuel supply source would have the inlet and the outlet on the bottom of the unit, with the air bleed at the very top of the cannister - this would be very difficult to bleed without a lift pump installed pre-filter, which would be just another item requiring management - would require pre-start operation, so the system would be primed B4 the starter was engaged and also during START - would require logic for pre-prime, say during WTS, START prime, and RUN prime, such that it would power down after a few seconds if key was switched ON, but engine was not started, for safety considerations - a safety switch, based on engine operation = an oil pressure switch would work - a relay, so ECM could manage the start\run logic.......... Woah - I thought I was having a deja vu moment all over again, there - but, no - I was just describing the system used on my GM EFI 6.5TD Which leads me to the crux of the matter - GM uses an all-aluminum fuel managment cannister with WIF and heater element, intended for high-mounting - commonly-available filters, incl Wix replaceable from the top - only occasional problem with those has been heater element o-ring deterioration after many years of use and engine bay heat - no fires or burned plugs - replace the seal when it starts dripping and yer good to go - neat thing about the cannister is fuel enters at the side on the bottom, passes thru the centrifugal water\heavy-particulate seperator\filter, then double passes thru the throw-away filter element, which installs from the top, then exits from the bottom on the opposite side - no chance for bubbles or air pockets to enter the fuel unless you aren't watching the guage and empty the fuel tank - the fuel return is also on the bottom of the cannister on side, which helps warm the fuel in winter climes - the water drain is a hose barb, for remote mounted T-valve and drain hose - etc - etc Since you guys are installing pre-filter lift pumps, maybe you should consider the GM alternative - no bubbles caused by the fuel filter manager

Author:	Stan Wright [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:08 am ]
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I installed a Racor fuel filter assembly and Kennedy lift pump last weekend. Two things I noticed immediately...the engine is MUCH quieter and off-idle throttle response is improved. It's as if the lift pump made the normally aspirated part of them motor peppier. I was hoping to see an improvement in mileage when I went to Tennessee but it stayed the same at around 28 mpg.

Author:	Stan Wright [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:38 pm ]
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Just more information...I installed a fuel pressure gauge and the Kennedy pump is registering 4 psi at the filter.

Author:	BlackLibertyCRD [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:03 am ]
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Stan Wright wrote: Just more information...I installed a fuel pressure gauge and the Kennedy pump is registering 4 psi at the filter. Also good to check the outlet of the pump to compare readings and assure filter is not restricted. Something we all should be doing from time to time.

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:05 am ]
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Thanks, Stan - excellent blog, BTW - very informative to a freshman CRD initiate..........................

Author:	Jim Friese [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Racor Filter:
Thanks gmctd: I am going to order up a Racor 245 with heater. My Mopar looks to be leaking a small amount of fuel. I'll get it replaced ASAP. Have a nice day. Jim

Author:	ATXKJ [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:15 pm ]
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don't forget the Temp sensor - it's required for the computer and it's a seperate TC from Omega (Stan's website has the details)

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Author:	Jim Friese [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Fuel Filter & Pump:
Does anyone know if a Complete drop in replacement for the Liberty fuel filter/pump one that has all the connections for the pump and heater? Thanks Jim

Author:	gmctd [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:57 pm ]
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Nothing plug'n'play, Jim, but if you'll look here http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/ and here http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=17573 and here http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=25537 and here http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=24527 then re-read this thread, you should have all the info you need to accomplish the task

Author:	Threeweight [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:03 am ]
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If I can find the time, I want to drop by my local marine supply place and ask about the wiring connectors to fit the Racor heater and WIF sensor... I bet you can buy them pretty cheap (as installing a new Racor on an old diesel boat engine would have the same issue as our Jeeps).

Author:	gmctd [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:07 pm ]
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That is the only plug-n-play drop-in setup = the original oem head - the Racor does bolt right up to the firewall, tho.