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Dyno Results after Mods
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Author:  retmil46 [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Dyno Results after Mods
Myself and Ranger1 attended the Pee Dee Diesel Dyno day event in Timmonsville SC today, to form a new TDR chapter. David Dunbar had his portable Dyno Jet dyno there, and yes, we did run both our CRD's - mater of fact, we got there early and were the first two vehicles to go thru.

Mine - Suncoast TC, Transgo shift kit, new design tranny oil pump, Aeroturbine 2525 muffler, V6 airbox with Amsoil EAA air filter, ORM, Kennedy Diesel 4 psi centrifugal lift pump, return line fuel cooler, Stanadyne 30 micron primary and Cat 2 micron secondary fuel filters.

Results - 152 HP and 280 ft/lbs at the rear wheels. :shock: :twisted:

Ranger1 - Same mods, except Inmotion Stage II tune and single Racor 2 micron high flow fuel filter.

Results - 185 HP and 334 ft/lbs at the rear wheels. :shock: :shock: :twisted:

OD was not locked out, tranny was allowed to operate normally on all runs.

They bloody near had to give me CPR when that beast consistently scored 150, 152, and 151 HP on three consecutive runs. I was expecting stock minus roughly 20% drivetrain losses, around 120 to 130. And this after just finishing a 170 mile 70 mph straight run to get down there.

By comparison, a stock 1st Generation '93 Dodge Cummins 12V 5.9 L turned 158 HP later in the day.

Guess the Suncoast TC and lift pump were doing their job. :wink:

After a 340 mile round trip at 70 mph and 3 runs on the dyno, pulled into the driveway with still over 5/8 tank - well over 30 mpg average.

Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"? :twisted: :lol:
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
What were the torque numbers on the Dodge? Those numbers sound very good...and plausible.

185/334 is definitely the way all our CRDs should be... :wink:
Author:  retmil46 [ Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
DarbyWalters wrote:
What were the torque numbers on the Dodge? Those numbers sound very good...and plausible.

185/334 is definitely the way all our CRDs should be... :wink:


Can't remember an exact number for the '93 Dodge, believe he was hitting around the 300 mark or a little to either side. I was just so flabbergasted that my little four banger mill came within an ace of matching even a 1st Gen Cummins over twice it's displacement. And then Ranger1 with his Inmotion tune ends up well past even that.

Quite a few of the truck owners there were rather impressed with what those four Italian squirrels could crank out.
Author:  Reflex [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"?

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but from what I understand of dyno'ing there are so many variables going in that there really is no way to know unless you tested the same vehicle stock with the same test setup/equipment.
Author:  AZScout [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Have either of you had the f31 or f37 done?
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Reflex wrote:
Quote:
Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"?

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but from what I understand of dyno'ing there are so many variables going in that there really is no way to know unless you tested the same vehicle stock with the same test setup/equipment.



Well you are kinda right. There are a lot of variable involved that can
vary from dyno to dyno. Remeber, HP is a calculated figure based on
measurments of torque and RPM.
The BEST way to measure the power of any engine is to dyno ONLY the
engine. Thus eliminating any variations caused by gear ratios, tire size,
and TC slippage.
Doing a rear wheel dyno is just a shortcut to avoid having to remove the
engine from the vehicle.
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:59 am ]
Post subject: 
AZScout wrote:
Have either of you had the f31 or f37 done?


Ranger1 has had the F37 done to his.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Rear Wheel Dyno gives you the figure that you are really working with in your vehicle with all parasitic loss accouted for. The good thing about a "Dyno Day" is that no matter what "correction factor" is used, the Dyno is essentially "even for the day" to compare against same type and other vehicles. These results showed the increase from the InMotion Tuning Process...so it was a good thing.
Author:  gsbrockman [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Great numbers, guys.

Dunbar and Batterson are great guys.....I've had my 2003 Dodge RAM 2500 CTD on their Dyno 4 times here in KY.....anytime they have a dyno event here, they are very successful. Those two are the hardest working dyno guys you'll find. I've seen them dyno as many as 65+ trucks at some major diesel events in the central Kentucky area. One time, when I'd recently installed my EDGE Juice w/Attitude on my 305/555 truck, they gave me 4 runs....0 {stock} then levels 3, 4, and 5. Really great guys. Did I mention they were great guys ?

I hope to get up with them to dyno my CRD and my bone-stock 2007.5 Dodge RAM 3500 SRW MegaCab later on this year. I guess the wife will get stuck with my daily*driver Neon and I'll tote the CRD on the car hauler with the Blue Bus.

Take some pics of the dyno sheets and post'em up.....I'd like to see what the torque curve looks like on these 4-bangers.

Greg


Image

Image Image
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
David posted all the dyno results over in the Regional Events section on TDR. The '93 Dodge 1st Gen turned 158 HP/352 ft-lbs.

Inmotion results were pretty impressive, especially considering that Ranger1 has had the F37 done to his. His power came on much earlier, and had much wider and flatter areas for top power, with less dropoff at higher rpms. My curves were going up at a 45 degree angle till they hit max, while his were going almost straight up.

Because of the skidplates and where the front chassis members were located, David couldn't hook up to do a direct reading for torque and we did HP only runs. After crunching some numbers and equations, and consulting with David and other TDR members present, Ranger1 came up with the peak torque numbers which everyone felt were a good estimate. Ranger1 did take the HP results from some of the other vehicles ran where they were able to measure torque and ran them thru his calculations as a check, and his results came in very close to what the dyno actually read out.
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Until I can get the sheet loaded onto a digital format, here's some of the plotted points of MPH vs HP.

55 mph - 115 HP
60 mph - 130 HP
65 mph - 145 HP
70 mph - 150 HP
No change over thru 80 mph
85 mph - 145 HP
90 mph - 135 HP

Once past 75 mph, the individual curves started taking on a sawtooth pattern, 1 to 2 HP fluctuations like a sine wave, while still following the basic shape of the curve. Ranger1 said that his curves were much smoother, not having anything resembling this sawtooth pattern.

If I can get the Inmotion done to mine as well, and we can run them side by side again, we might be able to tell from that, if there's a significant difference in numbers, what effects there might be left over in Ranger1's vehicle from F37.

These results pretty much confirm what I've suspected from my ears and seat dyno - that the way the engine is currently programmed, it really starts to sing once it hits around 2000 rpm (65 to 70 mph).

I know David seemed impressed that our two vehicles could put that much power to the ground, stating that he'd ran just one other Jeep CRD at a previous event. After running mine, he called me over to get the sheet, he had a big grin on his face, and told me "Congratulations, you hit 152 HP!". You could have knocked me over with a feather. After running Ranger1's vehicle, he was even more impressed, stating he could tell that as soon as he put his foot down that one had a lot more oomph to it.
Author:  danoid [ Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dyno Results after Mods
retmil46 wrote:
Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"?


As I've said before, a shift kit is not necessary for an electronically controlled transmission. I believe I've been limited and specific to just shift kits. In the end it's your car and your money...
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dyno Results after Mods
danoid wrote:
retmil46 wrote:
Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"?


As I've said before, a shift kit is not necessary for an electronically controlled transmission. I believe I've been limited and specific to just shift kits. In the end it's your car and your money...
All electronically controled auto's are not so electronically controled as you think and shift kits will do a huge service for the driveability and longevity of the tranny.

Quote:
we did HP only runs
All dino's measure torque,HP is now a fictional number,they measure the torque the engine produces and then the computer calculates the fictional "HP",at 5252rpm the engine produces the same torque as HP.
Author:  Reflex [ Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dyno Results after Mods
danoid wrote:
retmil46 wrote:
Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"?


As I've said before, a shift kit is not necessary for an electronically controlled transmission. I believe I've been limited and specific to just shift kits. In the end it's your car and your money...

I don't buy into any of this stuff until a proper before/after test is done. The few times I"ve seen proper analysis of these types of mods and aftermarket items they've always proven to be snake oil, or worse, actually decrease performance. Not to say that there isn't any such thing that can increase performance, only that it appears to me that the vast majority of such mods do not.

Furthermore, I'm more willing to trust the test facilities of a car maker than some mom-n-pop shop that has never engineered an engine from scratch and then tested it to half a million miles.

But as you point out, everyone can spend their own money how they see fit.
Author:  brew1 [ Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dyno Results after Mods
Reflex wrote:
danoid wrote:
retmil46 wrote:
Now, what was all that crap about these mods being "snake oil"?


As I've said before, a shift kit is not necessary for an electronically controlled transmission. I believe I've been limited and specific to just shift kits. In the end it's your car and your money...

I don't buy into any of this stuff until a proper before/after test is done. The few times I"ve seen proper analysis of these types of mods and aftermarket items they've always proven to be snake oil, or worse, actually decrease performance. Not to say that there isn't any such thing that can increase performance, only that it appears to me that the vast majority of such mods do not.

Furthermore, I'm more willing to trust the test facilities of a car maker than some mom-n-pop shop that has never engineered an engine from scratch and then tested it to half a million miles.

But as you point out, everyone can spend their own money how they see fit.


Ouch, that hurt.

A before and after dyno of the Inmotion Tuning would have been nice.
Would still like one of the Inmotion Tuning folks to come on the board and have an intelligent discussion regarding what parameters they change and what custom capabilities they have for tuning the CRD ECU.

Don't be shy fellows, an intelligent discussion regarding your tuning capabilities may improve business.
Author:  CATCRD [ Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dyno Results after Mods
brew1 wrote:

A before and after dyno of the Inmotion Tuning would have been nice.


It's already been done...
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=24280
Author:  Reflex [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:58 am ]
Post subject: 
brew1 - I'm not really attacking InMotion or any other single 'mod' here at all. My only point is that claims are often unverified, and such modifications may provide a short term gain but in the long run create problems. Sure you can get more torque and HP out of an engine by tuning the computer, your computer does this already automatically, but is it good for the vehicle? The auto manufacturers certainly have zero motivation to intentionally detune their products, that hurts their marketability vs. the competition, so if they are not maxing out a given aspect, there is likely a very good reason. Overriding those safeguards is fine for the crowd that is trading in every few years, but for those of us with long term plans, probably not a good idea.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:04 am ]
Post subject: 
From a previous post from MrMopar64...he stated that the 2.8L we have would be good (he said safe as I remember) to 460nm torque. These results are within that parmeter. After that 460 number the Aluminum head would be suspect...something to that effect.
Author:  danoid [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Any increase in black smoke with the new tune?
Author:  Reflex [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
DarbyWalters wrote:
From a previous post from MrMopar64...he stated that the 2.8L we have would be good (he said safe as I remember) to 460nm torque. These results are within that parmeter. After that 460 number the Aluminum head would be suspect...something to that effect.

Sure, but what about the transmission? Drive line? etc etc. No part of the machine operates in a vaccum, change one thing and you affect dozens of other systems.
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