NEW TRANNY TSB ISSUED 7/14

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:43 am

alljeep wrote:

vtdog wrote:

Does anyone know if there is something "different" in the new tsb that is not covered by the previous one?

Without talking with the programming team located somewhere in a dark cubicle in DC, we won't know the extent for quite some time. I know the TSB specifically added "Throttle Valve Shut Down Operation" to the list of enhanced performance items. They removed the phrase "improved durability" for all the items listed but we know that is what it is for from the TSBs it replaces - 18-008-06 and 18-008-09 and states to remove them from their files as this is a complete revision. Looks like they want the words "improves durability" removed from their records.

From my 3 days testing it right now I can say the shifting is smoother. My shudder has not returned now and 3 days is a record for that.

Guess I will have that TSB done while at the dealer next week.

alljeep · **Posted:** Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:00 am

oldnavy wrote:

alljeep wrote:

vtdog wrote:

Does anyone know if there is something "different" in the new tsb that is not covered by the previous one?

Without talking with the programming team located somewhere in a dark cubicle in DC, we won't know the extent for quite some time. I know the TSB specifically added "Throttle Valve Shut Down Operation" to the list of enhanced performance items. They removed the phrase "improved durability" for all the items listed but we know that is what it is for from the TSBs it replaces - 18-008-06 and 18-008-09 and states to remove them from their files as this is a complete revision. Looks like they want the words "improves durability" removed from their records.

From my 3 days testing it right now I can say the shifting is smoother. My shudder has not returned now and 3 days is a record for that.

Guess I will have that TSB done while at the dealer next week.

I heading out for a 250 mile drive in a few minutes for work, I'll report back on further testing of this TSB late this afternoon. Later all...

alljeep · **Posted:** Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:37 pm

The Shudder is back. After 4 days and 600 miles, it happened twice today, both exactly at the 52-53mph range, both times only very gradual acceleration. Doesn't make any sense what so ever it is as it did not happen the other 100+ times I was in that speed range just today.

I'm done caring about it as it's clearly happening at the shift point so it may be nothing at all, or the transmission may tank. Don't really care anymore, I like this Jeep and will drive the heck out of it until it won't go, then drive the Toyota until the Jeep is fixed and just keep repeating the process.

It does shift smoother, and maybe the reflash will actuall throw the right codes now for EGR vs. EGR air flow valve if the need ever arises. Thus far, I have yet to break down at just over 14,000 miles and 10 months. I couldn't say that about the 1.5 year old Honda I traded in for this - it lost the entire front transaxel at 500 miles, and the replacement was acting up again at 18600 miles when traded in...

IT IS WHAT IT IS

I did fill up with 19.5 gallons of B20 so that was cool!

Ripster · **Posted:** Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 pm

Just got back from a 200 mile trip with the new flash. The dealership does not do the quick learn, I
end up doing it myself over normal driving, the first 100 miles did notice the last shift was smoother
at 60-62, then after shutting it off several times in the course of the trip, the last 100 miles were
very smooth on all shifts, in particular the 2-3 shift that has always been a bit harsh. So if you have
the flash done, give it 200 miles or more to break in as both the transmission and engine brain boxes
are wiped and reflashed, so far so good, smoother shifts, the TransGo took care of the shudder on mine
so I was looking for smoother shifts, will see how it does tomorrow.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

will drive the heck out of it until it won't go, then drive the Toyota until the Jeep is fixed and just keep repeating the process.

Got a good laugh at the irony of this statement - when my CRD breaks down with regularity, I go back to my V6 gas liberty - but my wife ends up driving our japanese SUV. We are both using japanese vehicles as backups when the CRD can't keep operating correctly, in our quest to keep our CRD's. DC must be loving this kind of devotion. Although at this point, my loyalty is entirely with the diesel engine, not DC. It just so happens that right now, DC has the only diesel light duty non car vehicle. That will change over time and so will my vehicle selection as soon as a suitable non DC diesel arrives.

I'm slighty disappointed that the latest TCM flash hasn't fixed the problem, but not entirely surprised. This 15 month series of flash updates by DC exhibits an unimpressive track record on the transmission issue. The flash updates on the engine itself, are quite impressive, at least on mine, each flash update providing smoother and better engine performance with each successive update.

If I could find a resolution for the multiple egr failures, the transmission TC failures/shudder problem, and the engine oil in the intake, I would feel a little better about the CRD.

DragonDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:27 am

Ranger1 wrote:

If I could find a resolution for the multiple egr failures, the transmission TC failures/shudder problem, and the engine oil in the intake, I would feel a little better about the CRD.

OH - is that all..? :wink:

DragonDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:07 pm

ME ---> :x

(...for those of you that don't know - My CRD's Torque Converter (TC) went out on me 1200 miles from home. It has been there for 3 weeks waiting for parts and a new TC, Filter, and Pump.)

I just got my Jeep back from the dealership yesterday. According to the sticker under the hood, they did the TSB. According to the Work Order they did the rest. I drove it 5 feet and it starts to buck like it is giving itself too much fuel, and then starving itself.

When it is just started or cold it does this. When it is warm (aka - been goin down the highway), it is fine. To add to all of this, it has extreme "turbo lag" like symptoms off the line all the time!

The new TSB has changed some of the shift points. Also, when you lock the doors from the inside, the dash beeps :roll:

. It doesn't seem that the new TSB is the fix to my problem or has anything to do with my problem(s?)...

I don't know what to do!?!

kingofl337 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:28 pm

Do the filters need to be replaced are the updated ones? Maybe the tranny
fluid is draining from the torque cconverter?

huxrules · **Posted:** Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:53 pm

Dragon diesel-

Your Libby broke down in farmington, NM correct? The high altitude might be causing your turbo lag. I recently drove around Farmington and Durango and noticed incredible turbo lag. Had to floor it just to leave a stopsign. All went beck to normal when I made it back home (in Houston too). As for the bucking - I'd say back to the shop for you.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Understand your frustration, believe me I do. A couple of suggestions on things to check out:

1. Check the tranny fluid level - when they replaced my TC, they overfilled the fluid - when hot, it was 1 1/2" over the full mark. This causes more problems than we realize.

2. Check the hoses, especially the turbocharger hoses, to see if they're tight - shouldn't have been touched at all, but you never know. Check the vacuum lines on the plastic boost stand, near the passenger side of the hood. It is a vacuum storage tank which is connected between the vacuum pump and the turbocharger vacuum operated activator. If any of those lines are loose, your going to have enormous turbo lag.

If that doesn't help, have a competent mechanic check the vehicle out who will document what he finds and then submit a copy to DC and ask for resolution. This will cost you, but if its not right and your local dealer won't work on it, you don't have much choice. I don't know if others who have had the latest TSB performed noticed increased turbo lag, but it doesn't sound right. I've taken mine on the Blue Ridge Parkway at elevations of 5000 feet and there wasn't any change in turbo lag at all.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:49 am

Dragon D.

What your calling "turbo lag" is not turbo lag at all. It's the way the computer is programmed to prevent jack rabbit starts and a resulting soot cloud. Yours is a 05 as I recall. Mine is a 06 built in 01/06 and has the same symptom. On another board I'm told that starting in 2000 this was required and is common in most, if not all, highway diesels. Mine lasts for around 1 second that seems like eternity when your turning left in front of oncoming traffic. Yours could be worse but what I've discribes is "normal". However your cold running problem might be related to the egr flow control valve not opening properly. The latest flash messed with that also. It could also be a vacum line being off as has been suggested.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:31 am

Joe Romas wrote:

Dragon D.

What your calling "turbo lag" is not turbo lag at all. It's the way the computer is programmed to prevent jack rabbit starts and a resulting soot cloud. Yours is a 05 as I recall. Mine is a 06 built in 01/06 and has the same symptom. On another board I'm told that starting in 2000 this was required and is common in most, if not all, highway diesels. Mine lasts for around 1 second that seems like eternity when your turning left in front of oncoming traffic. Yours could be worse but what I've discribes is "normal". However your cold running problem might be related to the egr flow control valve not opening properly. The latest flash messed with that also. It could also be a vacum line being off as has been suggested.

Joe is right and here is the rub, this required programming is even in gassers, my Magnum even has the problem and it is a NA V6 engine, in most of the 4 cylinder gas cars this is not so noticable.

The way to overcome the problem is not do sudden heavy throttle launchs, a half throttle hit with get you a left turn across on coming traffic faster then full throttle will do to computer trying to stay within the EPA limit's. Another way around this is aftermarket chip for your vehicle. When wanting a heavy tire smoking launch from a standing start, have left foot on brake, slowely raise throttle to about 1200 and then realease brake and slam throttle at same time. Once you get the hang of this you can do it in less then a second and smoke a new V8 Mustang from the stop light across the intersection and really make him look bad. I have done it several times to some BA cars like a '05 Mustang GT and '05 Charger RT and both of these cars are V8's and very fast, along with other assorted imported hot rods.

Joe do you do the VW GTG's, I think I may have met you before. Been to any MI GTG's?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:01 pm

oldnavy wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

Dragon D.

Joe do you do the VW GTG's, I think I may have met you before. Been to any MI GTG's?

Never been to a tdi gtg. Been a TDI CLUB member for a long while. Family life leaves little time. I even have trouble getting to steam shows less then a hour away. I would really like to get to a GTG. Maybe after I retire in a year or so. I've noticed on my 06 crd that part throttle will yeild more then peddle to the metal starts. I haven't raced a rice yet but give me time!

DragonDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:34 am

oldnavy wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

Dragon D.

What your calling "turbo lag" is not turbo lag at all. It's the way the computer is programmed to prevent jack rabbit starts and a resulting soot cloud. Yours is a 05 as I recall. Mine is a 06 built in 01/06 and has the same symptom. On another board I'm told that starting in 2000 this was required and is common in most, if not all, highway diesels. Mine lasts for around 1 second that seems like eternity when your turning left in front of oncoming traffic. Yours could be worse but what I've discribes is "normal". However your cold running problem might be related to the egr flow control valve not opening properly. The latest flash messed with that also. It could also be a vacum line being off as has been suggested.

Joe is right and here is the rub, this required programming is even in gassers, my Magnum even has the problem and it is a NA V6 engine, in most of the 4 cylinder gas cars this is not so noticable.

The way to overcome the problem is not do sudden heavy throttle launchs, a half throttle hit with get you a left turn across on coming traffic faster then full throttle will do to computer trying to stay within the EPA limit's. Another way around this is aftermarket chip for your vehicle. When wanting a heavy tire smoking launch from a standing start, have left foot on brake, slowely raise throttle to about 1200 and then realease brake and slam throttle at same time. Once you get the hang of this you can do it in less then a second and smoke a new V8 Mustang from the stop light across the intersection and really make him look bad. I have done it several times to some BA cars like a '05 Mustang GT and '05 Charger RT and both of these cars are V8's and very fast, along with other assorted imported hot rods.

Joe do you do the VW GTG's, I think I may have met you before. Been to any MI GTG's?

OK - Back it up...

The turbo lag that I was describing is like 5-6 seconds of turbo lag under regular accelleration from a stop - not punching it. They found that the ECM had the wrong mapping in it. To make matters worse the air filter (that I had asked them to replace) was clogged worse than a LA freeway. I am still having the issues with the surging at cold temperatures. It only does this in Drive. It does not do this when you put it in Nuetral and rev the engine.

I will check the vacuum lines this morning when I stop by there at lunch. I will just have to see how this whole thing plays out. I will tell you this much - My wife wants that CRD gone!

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Mark,

My egr was just replaced and the paperwork says they flashed the PCM with the latest code. On the Interstate, I'm noticing a smooth, but much slower power delivery than before. Turbo lag seems noticeably higher than before the flash. There is a definite detuned feeling. No problems with surging, but a much longer engine wind up time before shift points occur. Noticably slower off the line now. I'm hoping its these 100F plus temps, but I don't think so. This thing drives like it has a different motor now.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:42 pm

Wonder if they detuned the engine to take some strain off the tranny???

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Man I hope not. I'd rather buy a better tc and leave the engine alone. I really like how the 18-009-06 TSB made the engine run.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:31 am

Ranger1 wrote:

Man I hope not. I'd rather buy a better tc and leave the engine alone. I really like how the 18-009-06 TSB made the engine run.

What do you think on 18-023-06? I still have 18-009-06, should I avoid the dealer?

This torque converter lock-up clutch problem sounds alot like an issue I had with an engine/transmission combo in a coach @ 10 yrs ago. Bought two coaches with 12.7L DDC Series 60 engines (430hp/1500 ft-lbs torque) and 10spd Eaton automated manual transmissions. Had a clutch shudder problem on those where the clutch would slip (shudder) immediatly after upshifting in the higher gear ranges (6th-10th). I had to experiment with several different clutches (different lining & pressure plate combos). Eventually went with a full-disc organic truck clutch with a stronger spring rating on the pressure plate to correct the problem. The softer pressure plate commonly used in a bus clutch just wouldn't take the torque of the larger engine without slipping. Detroit Diesel and Eaton also reflashed the computers to limit low end torque in certain gears to keep the clutch from slipping.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If I could get back to 18-009-06 I would. The latest flash did not fix the tranny shudder so other than getting the egr replaced, its been a net loss in performance. I do not like the throttle response/turbo lag at all now. I have never been able to get any flash applied up to now without asking to have it done. This one, never said a word about any flash and they did it. If it is an engine/tranny torque detune, I'm wondering if DC is telling dealers to do it.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:56 am

Ranger1 wrote:

If I could get back to 18-009-06 I would. The latest flash did not fix the tranny shudder so other than getting the egr replaced, its been a net loss in performance. I do not like the throttle response/turbo lag at all now. I have never been able to get any flash applied up to now without asking to have it done. This one, never said a word about any flash and they did it. If it is an engine/tranny torque detune, I'm wondering if DC is telling dealers to do it.

Starting to sound like this is the case. Wouldn't that be the kicker, sell 11,000 of these little torque monsters and detune them all after the fact. Guess that would be the final screwing from DC. I would still like to find the note from the VM Motori engineer saying the torque converter clutch springs are too weak for this engine.

NEW TRANNY TSB ISSUED 7/14

Who is online