Wet air filter

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I don't know if what Jeep did is adequate or not. I only know that after driving 30 minutes in a light to moderate rain, I have 1/4" of water in the bottom of the CRD airbox. Using the older snorkel 3.7 Liberty airbox fixed the issue for me. If the cost of that airbox and snorkel is $60.00, I'd go for that instead of something custom. At least it looks factory when you bring it in for service.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:32 pm

This took about 30 minutes and cost about $5 (got ripped of on price of glue) and has seem to prevent water in airbox, not to mention bugs and other debris. :wink:

It's just window/door screen material.

As you can see it is also almost invisiable. No wet filter from rain as yet.

You could also do this, but I am waiting till after I install my FilterMinder gage to be sure I'm not restricting air flow.

Cowpie1 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:07 pm

I did something different, but along the same line as OldNavy. My solution gives me a little more versatility, though it doesn't look quite as good as the OldNavy version.

Check out this and see if it would work for some of you. Especially if you are in colder climates.

http://www.gofia.com/index.cfm?pageID=20

They have just bug screen or combition winter front/bug screen. Not quite as good looking as OldNavy's setup, but more functional for some of us. And EXTREMELY easy to install. We used similar setups in Alaska when I lived up there. That is why I was attracted to this type.

At least we have some options!

kingofl337 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:19 pm

Ranger and Old Navy do you have the flap that covers the first grill section to
prevent water from getting it?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:25 pm

kingofl337 wrote:

Ranger and Old Navy do you have the flap that covers the first grill section to
prevent water from getting it?

Yes I do.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

kingofl337 wrote:

Ranger and Old Navy do you have the flap that covers the first grill section to
prevent water from getting it?

Yes, its there. No idea why its ineffective on my CRD.

To compare to a different vehicle, however, I did check my wifes Honda CRV intake system to see what it looked like, as it does not have water in the bottom of the airbox and rarely, if ever has any debris in it - the worst I've ever seen was an occasional leaf. It takes it nearly 6 months to build as much black road grime as will accumulate on my CRD with OEM intake in 3 or 4 weeks. It has an intake tube inside the engine bay, which has a cover about an inch above the top of the intake opening. This cover protects anything from dropping directly into the intake opening. The intake tube drops down about 14 inches, makes a gradual 90 degree bend and comes back up into the airbox. It's a giant U shape. No water can make it up past the bottom of the U shape. Design wise, it looks like the U shape was put there to prevent water intake.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:54 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

kingofl337 wrote:

Ranger and Old Navy do you have the flap that covers the first grill section to
prevent water from getting it?

Yes, its there. No idea why its ineffective on my CRD.

One theory: It has to do with large volume of air drawn by the CRD engine (relative to a gas engine) through a small frontal opening. This intenifies the vaccume, same effect as a crevice tool on a vaccume cleaner. Any moisture near the opening will get drawn inside. The distance from the front opening to the filter is too short to allow this water to fall out, thus it goes straight into the absorbant paper filter element. Lower RPM (low air draw) such as idling at the car wash probably won't cause a problem. Drive into wet weather or road spray from other traffic at 2000 RPM you will be sucking much more air and water. Without a baffle it goes straight to the filter.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:43 am

When I dropped off the CRD at Abernethy today to take care of the bad glow plug, I stopped by the parts dept just to see how much a brand new air filter housing and air inlet tube from a V6 KJ would be.

Don't know which year he looked up, told him '02 and up.

Complete air filter housing (top and bottom, didn't think to ask if you could just order bottom like you can for the CRD) was $138. Air inlet tube was $14.

Turns out the parts guys there actually have some sense. When I called yesterday to check to see if they had any glow plugs in stock, to see if I needed to leave the vehicle instead of waiting, I told the guy I was bringing it in today for a bad glow plug. He went ahead and put one on order to get it in their system, it'll get their today, and should have the vehicle back tomorrow AM! :shock:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:49 am

Was just at the dealership this AM and had the head diesel tech showed me a '03 Cummins that came in Friday afternoon with a blown turbo from water injestion, the bearings were shot and the turbine could be moved by hand probably 1/4" or more. The airbox had what was left from the mud & water inside, filter was almost sucked into intake tube was clean as new, thanks to all the dirt and mud being sucked on past into the turbo. Would you believe they are doing repairs under warranty. The consences is he was trying to ford a river or going through a rice field. Tech was pissed that dealership got the warranty to cover repairs, he said stupid guy should pay top dollar for this repair.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

What does your Restriction gauge read on a clean air filter? I notice on the filterminder page, they mention that humid or rainy conditions will increase the reading. Have you noticed any difference in wet/dry conditions?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:58 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

What does your Restriction gauge read on a clean air filter? I notice on the filterminder page, they mention that humid or rainy conditions will increase the reading. Have you noticed any difference in wet/dry conditions?

I have 7K on the paper filter (basic Purolator) with visible dirt in the pleats. I have yet to see any readings above the lowest mark (IIRC markings start @ 8 in-H2O) and it has been hot with relatively high humidity. I still don't have the replacement True-flow filter so I haven't messed with wet-trashing the old filters yet.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

What does your Restriction gauge read on a clean air filter? I notice on the filterminder page, they mention that humid or rainy conditions will increase the reading. Have you noticed any difference in wet/dry conditions?

Sorry shipmate I haven't installed the thing as yet, been too hot & humid for old fart's like myself. I wanted to do it this morning but the wife was off and running to early, tomorrow morning is not too likely. Probably next Saturday before I can get to it if it's not 85* with 95%+ humidity at about 5 am and the arthritis isn't kicking my stupid.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:58 am

I had the Filteminder on mine for about 3000 miles, starting with a clean filter (OEM) and minus the inlet tube to the grille, before the EGR replacement.

Same here, didn't budge off the zero mark.

Waiting until this beast decides it's thru seeing the dealer for awhile before I put it back on.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:19 pm

retmil46 wrote:

I had the Filteminder on mine for about 3000 miles, starting with a clean filter (OEM) and minus the inlet tube to the grille, before the EGR replacement.

Same here, didn't budge off the zero mark.

Waiting until this beast decides it's thru seeing the dealer for awhile before I put it back on.

Find it somewhat amusing the different attitudes dealers have to little aftermarket items. When I met with the DC tech rep they brought up the subject of installing a constriction gauge when I mentioned the wet air filter problem. She was surprised it didn't have one because they are standard fare with the Cummins Ram and most other diesels on the market. This was at least reassuring that she knew what it was and it's purpose in life.

MACKJ · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:21 am

Ranger1 wrote:

...It was last Sunday when I added this mod. Today, 7 days later the lower airbox bottom is clean, dry and the air filter itself is clean. I could not run for a week on a new filter with the stock CRD airbox setup without it turning slightly black with roadgrime, and the usual debris and leaves in the bottom.

So I'll clean out the turbo hoses next and see how long it takes to oil coat them.

Best wishes

Hi Ranger1,
Any update on the state of the CAC hoses after your mods?.
I am interested as I still have oil in the hoses after two months or so with a Provent.
I am also wondering whether I am pulling oil through the turbo seals.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:54 am

MACKJ wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

...It was last Sunday when I added this mod. Today, 7 days later the lower airbox bottom is clean, dry and the air filter itself is clean. I could not run for a week on a new filter with the stock CRD airbox setup without it turning slightly black with roadgrime, and the usual debris and leaves in the bottom.

So I'll clean out the turbo hoses next and see how long it takes to oil coat them.

Best wishes

Hi Ranger1,
Any update on the state of the CAC hoses after your mods?.
I am interested as I still have oil in the hoses after two months or so with a Provent.
I am also wondering whether I am pulling oil through the turbo seals.

If you still have oil present, the turbo seal is the only other source.
It's a matter of finding the reason (bad turbo, constricted filter, or some grey area with the combination of both).
What are you running for motor oil and how much is your Jeep using?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:34 am

For anyone that wants to try the "gasser" mod to the air filter such as Ranger1 has done (ie, an '02 V6 air filter box and inlet tube) -

Brand new from the dealer, the air filter housing for an '02 V6 costs $140 (have to buy the entire housing).

If you can't find a decent one at a local junkyard or salvage company, or like me just don't have the time to go searching, there are some online options.

I googled "Used Parts Jeep Liberty". From the results that came up, there were several online websites where you could submit a request for whatever part you were looking for. I tried a couple of them, and received several e-mails back from salvage companies that had the air filter box on hand, quoting price, delivery details, etc.

The quotes I got back for an '02 V6 air filter housing ranged anywhere from $50 to $150. I went with one company that stated a price of $90, primarily because they quoted up front that all their parts carried a warranty, if it was defective or damaged it could be returned for a full refund or exchanged for another.

I called one of the first lowball quotes I received, for $65, that stated they had the housing on hand. However, when the customer service rep went to ensure they did have the part, she came back and told me I probably didn't want this one as it had a big crack right down the middle of the housing! That's why I ended up going with a company that expressly stated a warranty on their parts.

A brand new air inlet tube from the dealer costs $14, the water dam plastic trim piece probably something similar.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Hi Ranger1,
Any update on the state of the CAC hoses after your mods?.

Still clean. Whatever caused the 2 quarts of oil to blow through the intercooler has stopped. No more blue smoke, no more laying down a blue smoke cloud big enough to hide a barn - nothing. The only thing that I can even remotely think might have happened is that the week before that happened, we had 5 days of solid, daylong soaking rain. I never checked the airbox back then because I wasn't following the thread RFCRD started on the wet filter problems. I had not yet completely readjusted my life to the ongoing demands of the CRD.

I'm keeping an eye on it. If any oil shows up, I'll let you know. I'm using Mobile-1 5W-40 Truck&SUV diesel rated oil in it. The only 2 things I could do to try to prevent it was the airbox mod and keep the oil at 6.3 quarts regardless of where it shows up on the dipstick.

RFCRD is correct - if you're seeing more than a tigerstripe of oil in the hoses after installing the Provent, the turbo seals is the only place it can come from. One big item to check is to see if your hoses to the Provent are kinked - someone reported that here and it causes a mess - crankcase blowby fumes will build up too much pressure and force oil past the turbo seals, rear and front main seals and anywhere else it can find an opening. The Provent cannot help if the hose to it is kinked.

PS - I did read on TDIClub about some TDI owners having turbo boost spikes that caused turbo seal failure. But their failure was complete - the oil was completly soaking their CAC hoses and the seals did not return to normal. After looking at how the egr air control valve and turbocharger on the CRD work in concert, I suspect that if anything interferes with the egr butterfly valve opening(sticking sooty sludge for example) in time when the vgt vanes boost up, will cause lots of excess air pressure from the turbo, through the intercooler and right up to the butterfly valve.

MACKJ · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:25 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

Hi Ranger1,
Any update on the state of the CAC hoses after your mods?.

Still clean. Whatever caused the 2 quarts of oil to blow through the intercooler has stopped. No more blue smoke, no more laying down a blue smoke cloud big enough to hide a barn - nothing. The only thing that I can even remotely think might have happened is that the week before that happened, we had 5 days of solid, daylong soaking rain. I never checked the airbox back then because I wasn't following the thread RFCRD started on the wet filter problems. I had not yet completely readjusted my life to the ongoing demands of the CRD.

I'm keeping an eye on it. If any oil shows up, I'll let you know. I'm using Mobile-1 5W-40 Truck&SUV diesel rated oil in it. The only 2 things I could do to try to prevent it was the airbox mod and keep the oil at 6.3 quarts regardless of where it shows up on the dipstick.

RFCRD is correct - if you're seeing more than a tigerstripe of oil in the hoses after installing the Provent, the turbo seals is the only place it can come from. One big item to check is to see if your hoses to the Provent are kinked - someone reported that here and it causes a mess - crankcase blowby fumes will build up too much pressure and force oil past the turbo seals, rear and front main seals and anywhere else it can find an opening. The Provent cannot help if the hose to it is kinked.

Thanks again guys for the prompt replies.
I am not sure whether I am being a little paranoid but I have been checking the hoses regularly every two days. At the point where the hoses contact the spigot on the CAC there is a ring a oil...nothing major in the hoses but I clean the hose between the turbo and CAC each time.
I am using Shell full synthetic 5W-40. It has been suggested I try Amsoil HD Diesel oil 5W-30 to bring the normal running viscosity down a touch. Provent hoses are clear of any kinks or sharp bends as I was very aware of this issue when I installed the unit. No noticeable drop in the sump oil level either.
When I cleaned the air control valve and the intake casting(bend) after the Provent install I did notice that only one side of the air control butterfly was heavily coated with sludge. It looked like the butterfly spent most of the time half closed. Could this mean that I am getting more EGR than fresh air? Maybe this is creating too much back pressure?
Sorry, just thinking out aloud here...

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I've wondered if that egr air control butterfly valve doesn't oscillate when the CRD is at highway speeds, the egr kicks in, the valve closes, turbo boost shuts down, then you hit the pedal, egr shuts off and the valve starts opening just as the turbo boost kicks in - if it hits it just right, the blast of turbo compressed air could force the valve down instead of open if the sludge sticks even slightly. It might even oscillate slightly, just enough to help the push the tranny shudder into violent jerking. Also thinking out loud.

Wet air filter

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