Wet air filter

MACKJ · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:07 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

I've wondered if that egr air control butterfly valve doesn't oscillate when the CRD is at highway speeds, the egr kicks in, the valve closes, turbo boost shuts down, then you hit the pedal, egr shuts off and the valve starts opening just as the turbo boost kicks in - if it hits it just right, the blast of turbo compressed air could force the valve down instead of open if the sludge sticks even slightly. It might even oscillate slightly, just enough to help the push the tranny shudder into violent jerking. Also thinking out loud.

Interesting theory...however the spring return mechanism on the valve is very strong so I would suspect more a control problem. That is, what you say may be happening but something is driving it to shut or partly shut.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:48 am

Ranger1 wrote:

I've wondered if that egr air control butterfly valve doesn't oscillate when the CRD is at highway speeds, the egr kicks in, the valve closes, turbo boost shuts down, then you hit the pedal, egr shuts off and the valve starts opening just as the turbo boost kicks in - if it hits it just right, the blast of turbo compressed air could force the valve down instead of open if the sludge sticks even slightly. It might even oscillate slightly, just enough to help the push the tranny shudder into violent jerking. Also thinking out loud.

Honest opinion, I think this is what is causing the bucking after hard acceleration. Have a theory that the valve is too slow or having problems changing angles after a WOT/full-boost event. Just think about how much air volume and what force is applied to that plate by this engine if it can completely overcome @25psi boost pressure and suck it's CAC hoses closed as some have reported. Can easily see this breaking the plastic gears controlling that valve.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:09 am

RFCRD wrote:

Honest opinion, I think this is what is causing the bucking after hard acceleration. Have a theory that the valve is too slow or having problems changing angles after a WOT/full-boost event. Just think about how much air volume and what force is applied to that plate by this engine if it can completely overcome @25psi boost pressure and suck it's CAC hoses closed as some have reported. Can easily see this breaking the plastic gears controlling that valve.

I have wondered the same thing since you guys started talking about the shudder. The thing is that what everyone describes is more like a sudden fuel starvation problem, such as small amount of air in the fuel or what a sudden loss of boost at WOT will do when you have vaccum fludder to VVT on a VW TDI. Only on the VW it would normally just do it once or twice then have total vacuum failure to the boost from what I had heard a few years back. I think VW had gotten a few bad vacuum valves or something that was a cheap & easy fix once the cause was found.

However this shudder is also I think reported in gassers with same tranny, and what is so confussing is the larger number of vehicles that never seem to have this problem. I am not saying it is just one tranny in every 10,000 but it is not 2 out 3 trannys having the problem either. I know water in the tranny will cause these shudders and that these trannys can not tolerate even an ounce of water in the fluid or they will act up with almost same symptoms.

I think I said here before that this may be a water in tranny problem, and that these units have a poorly sealed dipstick tube and that on other vehicles they had TSB to replace the seal. Then when even new designed seal didn't work they went to RTV sealing the tube and this was done not by TSB, but by service note from Chrysler. Mine was done that way at about second week of owning and was never driven in the rain before having the RTV sealer job done. Note the condition described here on the TSB for the 42RLE trans and this is same "box" or housing used for our 545RLE trans. This leaking seal was not limited to the 42RL and can be found on the MB tranny, the W5A or what is sometimes called the NAG-1, used in all 300C & Magnum car's with V8 and all Chargers.

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-04, DATED APRIL 27,
2004, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE
HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDES UPDATES FOR THE REPAIR
PROCEDURES, PART NUMBERS, LABOR OPERATION TIMES AND A NOTE.
SUBJECT:
Shudder During Shifts
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves flushing the transmission and **replacing the transmission fill tube**.
MODELS:
2005 (LX) 300/Magnum
NOTE: **This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with a 42RLE transmission (Sales
Code DG6) built before August 29, 2004**.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Shudder felt during shifts. The shudder is most noticeable with partial application of torque
converter clutch in 3rd and 4th gear.
DIAGNOSIS:
1. Test drive the vehicle to verify the condition.
2. Visually inspect the Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) for water contamination (use
a service dipstick, Miller Special Tool 9336). ATF contaminated with water will have a
milky appearance but may not be readily apparent at lower concentration levels, 0.5%
water concentration will cause shift shudder. The visual inspection may not be
conclusive.
3. Document result of the visual inspection on the repair order.
4. Perform the Repair Procedure if the shift quality test drive confirmed shift shudder
exists regardless of the outcome of the visual inspection.
NUMBER: 21-006-04 REV. A
GROUP: Transmission
DATE: October 6, 2004

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:30 am

I gotta love you fellow gearheads, L.O.S.T is the only place where you can get 11 pages of discussion on the implications, complications and obfuscations of a wet air-filter in the CRD! :lol:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:02 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

I gotta love you fellow gearheads, L.O.S.T is the only place where you can get 11 pages of discussion on the implications, complications and obfuscations of a wet air-filter in the CRD! :lol:

Wet air-filter!!! :shock:

I thought this was a discussion on tranny problems.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:12 pm

oldnavy wrote:

DZL_LOU wrote:

I gotta love you fellow gearheads, L.O.S.T is the only place where you can get 11 pages of discussion on the implications, complications and obfuscations of a wet air-filter in the CRD! :lol:

Wet air-filter!!! :shock:

I thought this was a discussion on tranny problems.

Maybe I'm all wet or full of air :lol:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:18 am

Finally got the CRD back yesterday after they changed out the remaining 3 glow plugs. Wasn't too happy about it taking my entire vacation week (Monday to Friday) to get it done, but at least that's put to bed.

The good news was that I received the used V6 airbox I ordered yesterday as well, and the inlet tube and water dam had come in at the dealer. So when I got home, I was able to do Ranger1's mod to the air filter.

It took longer to clean all the dirt and crud off the used air filter housing than it did to do the mod itself. Everything was direct fit, just snapped into place, and I would have been done in 15 minutes if I hadn't been so anal about double-checking everything, although part of the double-checking was making sure the dealership hadn't screwed anything up after replacing the glow plugs.

I put in a new NAPA Gold/Wix air filter, we'll see how it looks in 1000 miles or so.

Even running without the inlet tube on the factory air box, the air filter was still accumulating a lot of road grime, and there were enough dead bugs in the housing to open a frog buffet. One good thing was there wasn't any evidence of water.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:32 am

retmil46 wrote:

The good news was that I received the used V6 airbox I ordered yesterday as well, and the inlet tube and water dam had come in at the dealer. So when I got home, I was able to do Ranger1's mod to the air filter.

Was looking through some photos on the web of the '04 "Liberator" concept Jeep. It has this intake design with the CRD engine. I still have to wonder why they changed designs. I don't see where Jeep could have saved any money. If anything it would cost them to design, tool for another part and make the change.

Reggie · **Posted:** Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:57 pm

retmil46 wrote:

It took longer to clean all the dirt and crud off the used air filter housing than it did to do the mod itself.

Next time use the dishwasher - just don't tell the wife

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:04 pm

Reggie wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

It took longer to clean all the dirt and crud off the used air filter housing than it did to do the mod itself.

Next time use the dishwasher - just don't tell the wife

When I got married years ago, my mother felt it necessary to caution my wife about my dishwasher usage. :roll:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:13 pm

Reggie wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

It took longer to clean all the dirt and crud off the used air filter housing than it did to do the mod itself.

Next time use the dishwasher - just don't tell the wife

Isn't "wife" and "dishwasher" one and the same? :shock:

In my case, I'm single, and don't have a dishwasher, so I was pretty well stuck.

And after the above comment, I'll bet some of the females on here will be offering an opinion as to WHY I'm single! :lol:

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

The good news was that I received the used V6 airbox I ordered yesterday as well, and the inlet tube and water dam had come in at the dealer.

I just passed the 4 week and 1200 mile mark on my snorkel airbox mod. The airbox lower half is still clean, not even any sand particles or debris. Filter is only now beginning to show even a minute trace amount of black road grime, and I have to examine it closely to see it. Barely noticeable. Same exact daily drive, rain conditions, hot humid conditions, it didn't make any difference. Even in heavy rain, no water in the airbox.

I'm pretty well convinced it was worth the 15 minutes to do the mod.

MACKJ · **Posted:** Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:13 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

The good news was that I received the used V6 airbox I ordered yesterday as well, and the inlet tube and water dam had come in at the dealer.

I just passed the 4 week and 1200 mile mark on my snorkel airbox mod. The airbox lower half is still clean, not even any sand particles or debris. Filter is only now beginning to show even a minute trace amount of black road grime, and I have to examine it closely to see it. Barely noticeable. Same exact daily drive, rain conditions, hot humid conditions, it didn't make any difference. Even in heavy rain, no water in the airbox.

I'm pretty well convinced it was worth the 15 minutes to do the mod.

Any increase in oil in the CAC hoses?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Any increase in oil in the CAC hoses?

Funny you should ask. I just pulled them Friday evening and checked them both. The hose from the turbo to the IC is bone dry, clean and orange. The other hose, the one to the engine intake tube had a solid, but light black coating inside. The Provent output hose to the turbo is dry. My guess is that when turbo boost is on high it's blasting that oil in the IC into the engine via the hose. So off came the hose (again) and a good cleaning on that one.

I just finished reading a fascinating 26 page post on tdiclub.com about a TDI that went runaway, blew the engine and ended up being repaired by a trusted VW mechanic named jasontdi. VW denied warranty because the owner told them he had run a single tank of B30 biodiesel. So the He (jasontdi) ended up buying another long block engine from a European source. His diagnosis was that oil accumulation in the IC built up enough (due to long idle times in heavy traffic, low boost conditions due to short daily drives) engine oil from the CCV and turbo seals to blast into the engine and cause runaway speeds until it burned up. Another mechanic thinks it was bad injector spray patterns which melted the pistons and destroyed the long block. He also stated that driving with enough engine speed to keep the vgt boost on high was key to keeping excessive oil leakage from the turbo seals from clogging the IC. Lugging down at 1200 rpm is reported to be definite way to have oil leaks on the turbo seals as they need boost to seal.

The advice I found interesting was to TDI owners - he suggested pulling the lower IC hose and draining the IC once a year. He stated that drilling a plughole wasn't viable because it was plastic side mounted airtanks - sound familar? On our CRD's, unfortunately, we have no lower hose - they're both at the top of the IC.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:40 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

Any increase in oil in the CAC hoses?

Funny you should ask. I just pulled them Friday evening and checked them both. The hose from the turbo to the IC is bone dry, clean and orange. The other hose, the one to the engine intake tube had a solid, but light black coating inside. The Provent output hose to the turbo is dry. My guess is that when turbo boost is on high it's blasting that oil in the IC into the engine via the hose. So off came the hose (again) and a good cleaning on that one.

I just finished reading a fascinating 26 page post on tdiclub.com about a TDI that went runaway, blew the engine and ended up being repaired by a trusted VW mechanic named jasontdi. VW denied warranty because the owner told them he had run a single tank of B30 biodiesel. So the He (jasontdi) ended up buying another long block engine from a European source. His diagnosis was that oil accumulation in the IC built up enough (due to long idle times in heavy traffic, low boost conditions due to short daily drives) engine oil from the CCV and turbo seals to blast into the engine and cause runaway speeds until it burned up. Another mechanic thinks it was bad injector spray patterns which melted the pistons and destroyed the long block. He also stated that driving with enough engine speed to keep the vgt boost on high was key to keeping excessive oil leakage from the turbo seals from clogging the IC. Lugging down at 1200 rpm is reported to be definite way to have oil leaks on the turbo seals as they need boost to seal.

The advice I found interesting was to TDI owners - he suggested pulling the lower IC hose and draining the IC once a year. He stated that drilling a plughole wasn't viable because it was plastic side mounted airtanks - sound familar? On our CRD's, unfortunately, we have no lower hose - they're both at the top of the IC.

This same discussion was done about 4 or 5 years ago on the TDI forum to the same conclusion, except those were the engines before the avent of the "PD" engine in '04 with of all things the changed PVC system and different IC layout. The conclussion was to drive it harder then you would normally do for fuel ecomony when in stop and go traffic, it came to be refered to as "drive it like you stole it" to 3000 rpm and people that did that did not have the clogged intakes at 30,000 to 40,000 range versus 60,000 to 80,000 miles. There were two camps to this theory one was the extra oil from turbo seal and the other was CCV oil only, with the use of EHM, Provent, or Old Navy CCV filter (yup,me.) it was generally seen as mostly CCV oil. My thought was 2/3rd's CCV oil, but there were quite a few that thought it was about 50/50 split or more.

Myself I always thought that some cars passed oil through the turbo seals more then other's for what ever reason, but not like what will come thru the CCV. Not that is just my observation from all the testing that went into designing and marketing a successuful CCV filter for the turbo diesel VW.

MACKJ · **Posted:** Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:18 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

Any increase in oil in the CAC hoses?

Funny you should ask. I just pulled them Friday evening and checked them both. The hose from the turbo to the IC is bone dry, clean and orange. The other hose, the one to the engine intake tube had a solid, but light black coating inside. The Provent output hose to the turbo is dry. My guess is that when turbo boost is on high it's blasting that oil in the IC into the engine via the hose. So off came the hose (again) and a good cleaning on that one.

I just finished reading a fascinating 26 page post on tdiclub.com about a TDI that went runaway, blew the engine and ended up being repaired by a trusted VW mechanic named jasontdi. VW denied warranty because the owner told them he had run a single tank of B30 biodiesel. So the He (jasontdi) ended up buying another long block engine from a European source. His diagnosis was that oil accumulation in the IC built up enough (due to long idle times in heavy traffic, low boost conditions due to short daily drives) engine oil from the CCV and turbo seals to blast into the engine and cause runaway speeds until it burned up. Another mechanic thinks it was bad injector spray patterns which melted the pistons and destroyed the long block. He also stated that driving with enough engine speed to keep the vgt boost on high was key to keeping excessive oil leakage from the turbo seals from clogging the IC. Lugging down at 1200 rpm is reported to be definite way to have oil leaks on the turbo seals as they need boost to seal.

The advice I found interesting was to TDI owners - he suggested pulling the lower IC hose and draining the IC once a year. He stated that drilling a plughole wasn't viable because it was plastic side mounted airtanks - sound familar? On our CRD's, unfortunately, we have no lower hose - they're both at the top of the IC.

Thanks again Ranger1.
Looks like we are stuck with this fabulous design for the moment. I will give the little diesel a harder time for a while to see if that makes a difference. The guys at work tell me we should load a diesel to at least 80% as much as possible.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:12 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

Any increase in oil in the CAC hoses?

Funny you should ask. I just pulled them Friday evening and checked them both. The hose from the turbo to the IC is bone dry, clean and orange. The other hose, the one to the engine intake tube had a solid, but light black coating inside. The Provent output hose to the turbo is dry. My guess is that when turbo boost is on high it's blasting that oil in the IC into the engine via the hose. So off came the hose (again) and a good cleaning on that one.

I all but gave up on cleaning the intercooler to engine hose until I can control the oil in the turbo to intercooler hose. I believe there is so much accumulate oil in the intercooler that it will take a long time to completely blow-out. I still see a light oil coating coming out of the turbo, but only wet to the first bend in the hose. That hose is complete clean & dry where it connects to the intercooler. Must also keep in mind that I'm running 0W40 oil (not by my choice) until DC completes their oil consumption testing which I believe is contributing to the problem. I can see this being a routine thing, pull the turbo to intercooler hose for inspection and cleaning every oil change.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:23 am

After driving around over the weekend, and doing my normal commute to work yesterday, there's a noticeable improvement in driveability and performance. Combination of the V6 airbox with a larger/shorter/unrestricted air inlet and a new NAPA/Wix air filter has added some spring to it's step.

Just as when I initially got rid of the stock muffler and opened up the exhaust, I'm having to watch my throttle inputs again to keep from exceeding the speed limit. Guess I need to do the quicklearn procedure on my right foot to get it recalibrated.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If you want a real surprise, take the water dam off and notice the ram air effect on the throttle response. Pretty impressive. Too bad it has to be on there, but first big puddle and that water will drive right up over the front, into that seam and right into the air scoop. But in dry weather its a hoot, especially on the Interstate.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:45 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

If you want a real surprise, take the water dam off and notice the ram air effect on the throttle response. Pretty impressive. Too bad it has to be on there, but first big puddle and that water will drive right up over the front, into that seam and right into the air scoop. But in dry weather its a hoot, especially on the Interstate.

Awww man, almost wish you hadn't mentioned that. Now I'm going to be tempted to try it, get my butt caught in a thunderstorm on the way home from work, and get in trouble.

Since filling up back on Sunday, I've done right at 110 miles, and it seems to have helped fuel mileage a tad as well, just down to the full mark as I pulled into the driveway tonight. Thing is, I did a "normal" fillup, no cramming after the pump shut off the first time. Only way I've exceeded 100 miles by this point before was by cramming in an extra half-gallon or so after the first shut-off.

Better fuel mileage, increased reliability, decreased maintenance, better performance - now THAT'S my kind of modification!

Wet air filter

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