TC and Trans Pump Aggrivation

rs4mtnitro · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:47 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

o, we can extoll the merits of the 545RFE in other models, but remember the 545RFE TCM is having a hard time speaking Italian with the VM Motori ECM.

Exactly. The (5)45RFE TCM works perfectly well when mated to the PCM on the V6 Liberty - my 02 shifts perfectly and has never had a shudder or a single flash update. But it's talking to the PCM Jeep/Chrysler designed. The CRD is using a Bosch ECM, talking to a Jeep/Chrysler TCM.

The gas liberty uses a 4 speed not the same as the 5 speed in the crd and vm is owned by dc so communication shouldn't be an issue.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:50 pm

rs4mtnitro wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

o, we can extoll the merits of the 545RFE in other models, but remember the 545RFE TCM is having a hard time speaking Italian with the VM Motori ECM.

Exactly. The (5)45RFE TCM works perfectly well when mated to the PCM on the V6 Liberty - my 02 shifts perfectly and has never had a shudder or a single flash update. But it's talking to the PCM Jeep/Chrysler designed. The CRD is using a Bosch ECM, talking to a Jeep/Chrysler TCM.

The gas liberty uses a 4 speed not the same as the 5 speed in the crd and vm is owned by dc so communication shouldn't be an issue.

They are the same tranny, just the 545 has an extra "gear" to use.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

The gas liberty uses a 4 speed not the same as the 5 speed in the crd and vm is owned by dc so communication shouldn't be an issue.

The 45RFE on my 02 Liberty is identical to the 545RFE on the CRD, with the exception of having the last overdrive ratio (.67) electronically disabled in the 02. The 03-06 V6 Libertys use the 4RLE 4 speed with only 2 planetary gearsets.

VM has nothing to do with the design of the Bosch EDC16 ECM that the Jeep CRD TCM has to communicate with. Sometimes a little research helps. Global manufacturing has brought us components from all over Europe and the USA on our CRD's.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:02 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

All things being equal, the 545RFE may be a great transmission. But in the case of the CRD, all things are not equal. The 545RFE does not seem to be "mated" correctly through both software and mechanics with the 2.8L Diesel. The export models equipped with the auto, are having the same issue according to posts from overseas.
So, we can extoll the merits of the 545RFE in other models, but remember the 545RFE TCM is having a hard time speaking Italian with the VM Motori ECM.

The latet recall about the being out of OBDII compliance sounds what your talking about. Chrysler made just that mistake you pointed out except the Bosch ECM is German not Itilian!. It's discribed in this thread. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=11476

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:08 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

The latet recall about the being out of OBDII compliance sounds what your talking about. Chrysler made just that mistake you pointed out except the Bosch ECM is German not Itilian!. It's discribed in this thread. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=11476

I was making a JOKE :lol:

about the translation of the computers not being able to speak between the American 545RFE TCM and the Italian VM Motori Engine.
:wink:

So much for subtle humor :roll:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:23 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

The latet recall about the being out of OBDII compliance sounds what your talking about. Chrysler made just that mistake you pointed out except the Bosch ECM is German not Itilian!. It's discribed in this thread. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=11476

I was making a JOKE :lol:

about the translation of the computers not being able to speak between the American 545RFE TCM and the Italian VM Motori Engine.
:wink:

So much for subtle humor :roll:

I know it was a joke but it's true :lol:

I wonder if that has anything to do with the tranny problems having two masters on the bus as Ranger1 explained?

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:28 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

DZL_LOU wrote:

Joe Romas wrote:

The latet recall about the being out of OBDII compliance sounds what your talking about. Chrysler made just that mistake you pointed out except the Bosch ECM is German not Itilian!. It's discribed in this thread. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=11476

I was making a JOKE :lol:

about the translation of the computers not being able to speak between the American 545RFE TCM and the Italian VM Motori Engine.
:wink:

So much for subtle humor :roll:

I know it was a joke but it's true :lol:

I wonder if that has anything to do with the tranny problems having two masters on the bus as Ranger1 explained?

Could be..... Could be.... :shock:

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:15 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

The 05 CRD with 24K miles has been at the Dealership for two weeks now waiting on parts the TC and Transmission Pump. DCX has advised the tech to warranty these items after failure.
Since the 545RFE is in the CRD, I would assume that the TC and transmission pump would be readily available. However, I have been told that the pump has been redesigned and is on back order.
Last update from the Dealership tech was that the pump is being shipped via "Special Order" and "Vehicle Off Road" statusto expedite the delivery, but that update was last week.
This week the tech was setting expectations that the pump, when it arrives, will need to be assembled on site since orders for this pump are so numerous that the factory does not have time to assemble them.
Can't get a straight answer out of anyone just yet so I keep making twice daily visits to the dealership.

Going on week 3 w/o the Libby..........Rental is to be returned Monday morning.........
Friday evening I saw the Libby pulled into the service bay with the front and read drive shafts removed. One of the jr. techs assisting my diesel tech said the "parts" arrived.

Now I'm re-arranging my schedule for Monday so that I can spend the whole day off in the service bay. I will be watching and hawking this whole process.
Many promises have been made so I will have to be a pain in the anatomy with my physical presence to ensure the work gets done as promised.

I have never had to be so involved with a vehicle warranty repair as I feel I need to with the CRD. If I could get straight answers from service and DCX I could relax a bit. But this situation requires vigilance.

alljeep · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:18 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

The 05 CRD with 24K miles has been at the Dealership for two weeks now waiting on parts the TC and Transmission Pump. DCX has advised the tech to warranty these items after failure.
Since the 545RFE is in the CRD, I would assume that the TC and transmission pump would be readily available. However, I have been told that the pump has been redesigned and is on back order.
Last update from the Dealership tech was that the pump is being shipped via "Special Order" and "Vehicle Off Road" statusto expedite the delivery, but that update was last week.
This week the tech was setting expectations that the pump, when it arrives, will need to be assembled on site since orders for this pump are so numerous that the factory does not have time to assemble them.
Can't get a straight answer out of anyone just yet so I keep making twice daily visits to the dealership.

Going on week 3 w/o the Libby..........Rental is to be returned Monday morning.........
Friday evening I saw the Libby pulled into the service bay with the front and read drive shafts removed. One of the jr. techs assisting my diesel tech said the "parts" arrived.

Now I'm re-arranging my schedule for Monday so that I can spend the whole day off in the service bay. I will be watching and hawking this whole process.
Many promises have been made so I will have to be a pain in the anatomy with my physical presence to ensure the work gets done as promised.

I have never had to be so involved with a vehicle warranty repair as I feel I need to with the CRD. If I could get straight answers from service and DCX I could relax a bit. But this situation requires vigilance.

Bring your digital camera and try to get some close up pictures of the "redesigned" parts and maybe some part numbers. I still don't believe anything has been redesigned...

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Will be watching to see how your rebuilt tranny with the redesigned pump works out. If yours had the shudder at 55-65 mph, I will be interested to know if that resolves the problem.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:28 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Will be watching to see how your rebuilt tranny with the redesigned pump works out. If yours had the shudder at 55-65 mph, I will be interested to know if that resolves the problem.

Interesting note, my trans shudder about two months prior to the TC failure disappeared. I was actually quite pleased that acceleration did not introduce the shudder as it did. I guess that should have been an indication that the TC was going to experience catastrophic failure soon.

All DCX agreed to replace was the TC and pump. Interesting that DCX did not suggest any TSB's to be applied at all with the new TC and pump.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:40 pm

alljeep wrote:

Bring your digital camera and try to get some close up pictures of the "redesigned" parts and maybe some part numbers. I still don't believe anything has been redesigned...

Ranger1 wrote:

Will be watching to see how your rebuilt tranny with the redesigned pump works out. If yours had the shudder at 55-65 mph, I will be interested to know if that resolves the problem.

Well, the whold day was spent at the dealership observing all the activity on the Libby. Cameras were frowned upon, so I took my luck to be able to stand under the hoist, eat lunch with the techs and work elbow to elbow with the tech.
I can say that the following was done to the transmission.

The transmission pump was replaced with part number 68009879AB.
The TC was replaced with part number 68000336AA.
New Transmission Front Cover (Looks like a pie plate)
New Trans Cooler Line Return Filter
New Trans Sump Filter

We also took apart the input clutch assembly and examined the clutch pack and rings. The clutch pack did not show abmormal signs of wear (blackened clutch plates) Additionally, the carrier, sun and annulus gears (planetary) were disassembled and examined. No abnormal wear was noticed.
Everything was cleaned, relubed and packed back together in the bell housing of the transmission

We then disassembled the old transmission pump into it's two separate halves. It certainly had numerours failure points. One of the check valves had a spring with virtually no tension on it.
The Separator Plate of the pump was heat stress discolored and clutch dust was quite noticeable on the separator plate.
The two driven gears that produce the pressure were worn against the pump housing. It seems that the pump housing to hold the driven gears had an improper casting, thus causing improper pressure to move the fluid through the pump.

On the new transmission pump I did notice an anodized Separator Plate that was not anodized in the old failed pump. I can at least vouch that it is redesigned.
The TC is not redesigned and remains the same.

However, upon assembling the transmission back into the Libby and reattaching the drive shafts, a test drive was in order.
When she was placed into any gear from the gear selector, the Libby was under such a large load that it stalled the engine. Again same symptoms from when I brought the Libby in 3 weeks ago.
The DRB was connected to the data port and several techs packed into the Libby for a test drive. There were no codes thrown from the TCM or ECM but behavior was symptomatically the same

Next steps is that the dealership is forcing DCX to supply a new transmission while stil under warranty. New 545RFE should be in sometime this week.

One more interesting factoid. DCX allows warranty payment to techs for 1.5 hours of warranty work to get the work I described done. It took 1 person all day while I witnessed the work.
If your out of warranty, the job is classed at 8 hours. Once again, warranty work is to be hurried and moved out the door quickly, while non-warranty work is at a premium.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

We then disassembled the old transmission pump into it's two separate halves. It certainly had numerours failure points. One of the check valves had a spring with virtually no tension on it.
The Separator Plate of the pump was heat stress discolored and clutch dust was quite noticeable on the separator plate.
The two driven gears that produce the pressure were worn against the pump housing. It seems that the pump housing to hold the driven gears had an improper casting, thus causing improper pressure to move the fluid through the pump.

Thanks for the valuable information. We would never had access to this kind of information if you had not insisted on participating in the repair procedure.

Your description appears to confirm something I've suspected ever since I located the tranny cooler on the CRD - it's running too hot. The spring with no tension could be either cost cutting to the point of very dimished returns or heat fatigue. But the heat stress and other casting defects do not leave me with a warm fuzzy on the quality of components.

The warranty reimbursement from DC is not surprising and verifies what techs at dealerships where I've brought my CRD to have told me. They don't want warranty work for just that reason. DC (and others) has provided the HMO of automobile repair - give the customer a 7/70 warranty and squeeze the service end behind the scene to control costs. This is exactly why Ford and GM are in the financial shape they're in and DC won't be far behind if they keep this up.

The pump is the heart of the system - if it goes there isn't much hope for anything else in the tranny - you'd think even the bean counters would have risk managment software that rated components by value of domino downstream failures in terms of dollars if cost reduction is pushed beyond a certain point.

I<3myCRD · **Joined:** Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:16 pm **Posts:** 20

DZL_LOU wrote:

When she was placed into any gear from the gear selector, the Libby was under such a large load that it stalled the engine. Again same symptoms from when I brought the Libby in 3 weeks ago.
The DRB was connected to the data port and several techs packed into the Libby for a test drive. There were no codes thrown from the TCM or ECM but behavior was symptomatically the same

Next steps is that the dealership is forcing DCX to supply a new transmission while stil under warranty. New 545RFE should be in sometime this week.

I've been having the same issue w/ mine (although not that consistent) where it seems like the tq locks and stalls the engine. My dealershhip replaced the tq and filters, but still no go. If possible, could you give me the contact info to your dealer so I can have my dealer talk to them?

Getting the dealer to admit that there is a real problem is very frustrating.

TDICRD58 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:29 pm **Posts:** 21

Is this the same transmission pump used on the Hemi powered 545 tranny? If it is, then they must be seeing failures on high torque gasoline applications as well.................. Has anyone consulted a good independent transmission shop? Some say it's software but if it is - then why don't I see this issue on my early 2005? My tranny has been reflashed to 2006 levels.
I wish you guys the best of luck, (and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed) but it just doesn't add up. My gut tells me it's of mechanical origination (and the software could also be seeing a crap signal from a sensor)
If it were mine I would find the best transmission shop in the area and let them look at it. The worst thing that can happen is that you are out a few bucks - but you also have an expert opinion for the record when dealing with DC.
GOOD LUCK!!!

Ripster · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:47 pm

All the good shops are on the West Coast thousands of miles from me or on the East Coast.
We don't seem to have any in the MidWest.

alljeep · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

alljeep wrote:

Bring your digital camera and try to get some close up pictures of the "redesigned" parts and maybe some part numbers. I still don't believe anything has been redesigned...

Ranger1 wrote:

Will be watching to see how your rebuilt tranny with the redesigned pump works out. If yours had the shudder at 55-65 mph, I will be interested to know if that resolves the problem.

Well, the whold day was spent at the dealership observing all the activity on the Libby. Cameras were frowned upon, so I took my luck to be able to stand under the hoist, eat lunch with the techs and work elbow to elbow with the tech.
I can say that the following was done to the transmission.

The transmission pump was replaced with part number 68009879AB.
The TC was replaced with part number 68000336AA.
New Transmission Front Cover (Looks like a pie plate)
New Trans Cooler Line Return Filter
New Trans Sump Filter

We also took apart the input clutch assembly and examined the clutch pack and rings. The clutch pack did not show abmormal signs of wear (blackened clutch plates) Additionally, the carrier, sun and annulus gears (planetary) were disassembled and examined. No abnormal wear was noticed.
Everything was cleaned, relubed and packed back together in the bell housing of the transmission

We then disassembled the old transmission pump into it's two separate halves. It certainly had numerours failure points. One of the check valves had a spring with virtually no tension on it.
The Separator Plate of the pump was heat stress discolored and clutch dust was quite noticeable on the separator plate.
The two driven gears that produce the pressure were worn against the pump housing. It seems that the pump housing to hold the driven gears had an improper casting, thus causing improper pressure to move the fluid through the pump.

On the new transmission pump I did notice an anodized Separator Plate that was not anodized in the old failed pump. I can at least vouch that it is redesigned.
The TC is not redesigned and remains the same.

However, upon assembling the transmission back into the Libby and reattaching the drive shafts, a test drive was in order.
When she was placed into any gear from the gear selector, the Libby was under such a large load that it stalled the engine. Again same symptoms from when I brought the Libby in 3 weeks ago.
The DRB was connected to the data port and several techs packed into the Libby for a test drive. There were no codes thrown from the TCM or ECM but behavior was symptomatically the same

Next steps is that the dealership is forcing DCX to supply a new transmission while stil under warranty. New 545RFE should be in sometime this week.

One more interesting factoid. DCX allows warranty payment to techs for 1.5 hours of warranty work to get the work I described done. It took 1 person all day while I witnessed the work.
If your out of warranty, the job is classed at 8 hours. Once again, warranty work is to be hurried and moved out the door quickly, while non-warranty work is at a premium.

It's amazing that after all of that it still is not right. It's a heck of a mystery now that your probably chasing collateral damage from the pump failure. I should have stopped by to see some of that stuff as I was in the area this morning. I would love to just see all the insides to give me a better idea of what is going on.

Meanwhile, with every report, I get a little more worried about the rest of us...

What's the build date of your CRD??? I wonder if it was just a bad batch of these improperly cast pumps or a mass errror...

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:46 pm

alljeep wrote:

It's amazing that after all of that it still is not right. It's a heck of a mystery now that your probably chasing collateral damage from the pump failure. I should have stopped by to see some of that stuff as I was in the area this morning. I would love to just see all the insides to give me a better idea of what is going on.

Meanwhile, with every report, I get a little more worried about the rest of us...

What's the build date of your CRD??? I wonder if it was just a bad batch of these improperly cast pumps or a mass errror...

The build date is 05/20/05.
IMHO, the best thing to happen is to have these types of catastrophic failures while under warranty or extended warranty.

What's strange to me after reading a few more posts today is that some of us have no transmission problems but are plagued by EGR issues. Then vice versa, some of us have no EGR issues but transmission headaches.
I just answered a post asking about original EGR and mileage. I'm at 25,025 but still have no EGR issues only trans issues.

At this point, I would be a guinnea pig for DCX to replace my auto trans with a manual trans for export. So much less complicated mechanically, but still have the re-programming issue for going manual.

MoLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:58 pm

DZL_LOU wrote:

The build date is 05/20/05.
IMHO, the best thing to happen is to have these types of catastrophic failures while under warranty or extended warranty.

What's strange to me after reading a few more posts today is that some of us have no transmission problems but are plagued by EGR issues. Then vice versa, some of us have no EGR issues but transmission headaches.
I just answered a post asking about original EGR and mileage. I'm at 25,025 but still have no EGR issues only trans issues.

At this point, I would be a guinnea pig for DCX to replace my auto trans with a manual trans for export. So much less complicated mechanically, but still have the re-programming issue for going manual.

Interesting... I am within a couple of days (if I remember correctly), and mine has had valve problems on the tranny. I can't remember all of the parts they replaced, but they didn't include the pump or TC. I haven't had any problems with the EGR, though, although I can really kill the mosquitoes when I get on er'! :lol:

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:10 am

MoLibertyCRD wrote:

Interesting... I am within a couple of days (if I remember correctly), and mine has had valve problems on the tranny. I can't remember all of the parts they replaced, but they didn't include the pump or TC. I haven't had any problems with the EGR, though, although I can really kill the mosquitoes when I get on er'! :lol:

When you step back and look at the repair procedure I participated in, logically the valve body and solenoid pack would be the next suspect.
As a reference point, it sure would help if you could post the part numbers replaced and symptoms that you had

TC and Trans Pump Aggrivation

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