T&T CUSTOMS INTERESTED IN LIBERTY!

fdezone · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:10 pm

Well, we may have found a really reputable manufacturer who is interested in developing a lift for the Liberty. I recently reached out to T&T Customs, Inc. The following is their reply to my original message. I will forward this link to Matt and I am looking for actual input from the community. No BS please. I believe T&T is in Wyoming and they'll be seeking a beta-customer interested in performing an SFA swap. Who in the area would be interested?

Obviously, I would opt for the SFA swap based primarily on the fact that the KJ has a weak aluminum 30 front end which is prone to breakage. I would expect an IFS lift to address this issue, resulting in a significant price increase. Please feel free to chime in and provide feedback.

Sorry for taking a few days to get back to you. After receiving your email we discussed the possibilities of designing some products for the Liberty and are very interested. We have begun looking locally for a beta-customer who may be interested in doing a SAS (Solid Axle Swap). Unfortunately this process could take months to make it to production but we are working in that direction.

Do you think the best way to lift a Liberty is to do a SAS or would a drop IFS system in a taller version be acceptable? I'm interested in your opinion.

Regards,

Matt Cook
T&T Customs, Inc.
Shop: (307)775-9565
Cell: (307)214-6726
Email: matt@tntcustoms.com
Web: http://www.tntcustoms.com

----- Original Message -----
From: fdezone
To: sales@tntcustoms.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 7:18 PM
Subject: Jeep Liberty

I was wondering if T&T had any plans on developing anything for the Jeep Liberty. There is an entire community looking at lifting the Liberty past the current 2-3" currently being offered. I particularly believe that a leaf sprung SFA swap would be feasible, especially by someone like T&T who has extensive knowledge in unibodies. I also have an idea for the bracketry which may be utilized to accomplish this swap. Please feel free to check out the following website dedicated to the growing number of Liberty owners.

www.lostkjs.com

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:20 pm

I do not understand why you want leafs? Its so easy to make use of the stock mounts for the Coil overs and make a spring perch. The flex is better also. :?:

fdezone · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:44 pm

I know coilovers seems to be the consensus, and that's why I started this thread. I want to provide T&T with unbiased feedback. To answer your question though, I personally believe that a leaf sprung SFA swap would be the easiest, most economical method. I believe the simplicity of a leaf sprung front end would result in fewer complications.

I know some folks want a SAS with coilovers and others would be content with an IFS lift. I also realize some folks feel leafs are ancient history, and I respectfully disagree. Regardless, let's discuss the pros and cons. The lift would have to appeal to the masses, so I'm not trying to dictate which way this should go. Speak up.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:50 pm

The ride would be awful though. You dont even have to use coil overs. It would be easy to make it to where the spring and shock are separate.

fdezone · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:17 pm

Just Y-Link arms like those offered by T&T or Rusty's run around $800-$900. Due to room concerns, I would say you'd have to go with coilovers which could run anywhere from $500-$600 and up. Add the fact that you would need to aquire a steering box, steering shaft, front axle, now add the bracketry and installation, and you've just alienated the majority. Nevermind the fact that you haven't even addressed the rear end. It would turn into a one-off, custom install like Wally's running $10K. I would venture to say that a kit over $3K would be detrimental for sales. Can you understand where I'm coming from? As far as leaves riding horribly, my eighty-something Grand Wagoneer rode like a champ and flexed better than a KJ.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:33 pm

Look over this.

http://home.comcast.net/~jedijawa/

fdezone · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:52 pm

I copy, that's JediJeeper, right? What was the total cost for the self performed SAS. I think I remember him dealing with a company who was interested in purchasing his plans for the build but it didn't happen. Wonder what happened? Does he still own it and is he still around. Would love to hear his input and lessons learned. I think that may have been the first SAS, then S&N Fab, fireblad1, and All J. I know, with the exception of Jedi, who kept the coils separate, all others used coilovers.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:58 pm

I think it was jedijeeper. Ive not seen him in awhile.

SavageSS27 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:02 pm

Here's the deal...I think an SFA swap is the best way to go, especially considering that we'd need to replace the weak D30A anyway. Not to mention, when you cradle drop an IFS system and start getting it to the extremes of travel, you start running into major bump-steer and camber/toe/caster issues. As for the leaf spring/coilover issue. I think it would be kinda strange to see something with a coil sprung rear and a leaf front end. Usually it's the other way around. Then there's the fact that coilovers, although much more expensive, are also much more adjustable, usefull, and flexy. If it was really an issue though, maybe they should do two separate kits, or an option to go with either kit. Now pricewise, either kit is gonna be really expensive due to the need for two new axles, a completely new steering setup, new driveshafts, and possibly a new T-case. Any way you look at it, this is gonna be a really expensive upgrade. But i'd be willing to lay out the cash, just to have a cool KJ, even though you could take the 6K it's gonna cost you (at least) and buy an old SJ, jack it way up and throw some mudders under it and have a really capeable rig.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:06 pm

We really do not need a new rear axle. I mean its fairly strong and would do fine with 33's, idk about 35's? That would save alot of money right there.

SavageSS27 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:11 pm

True, but i'm concerened about my brakes just on 31's. So i'd want to get at least new brakes, most likely a new diff (lower gears) a locker, and new inner axle shafts, might as well just buy a rocktrak.

kolesy · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:35 pm

K here's my take on this. I am not the most mechanically inclined as far as fabbing stuff goes so bear with me..... I remember someone postiing up here about a company called Chaos Customs or fabrication, They do a lot of work with the IFS yotas. Me personally would like that kind of set-up. Bout a 5-6" kit. Taking all this stuff out for a SFA and evrything to get it in needs to be done just right and will not be able to be accomplished by a lot of people. So what if you take the IFS approach and amkeup some new a-arms and knuckles, longer beefier high angle cv's and find some way (if at all possible) to beef up that front D30a. For the rear a new design in the tri-link would need to be made as well. This may even be cheaper than the whole SAS. Personally i love the handling of my IFS and would love to keep it if possible. Even offroad with all those upgrades it would perform great.

As for the breaks. I have 30.5s on some steelies and have not noticed a change in my breaks. Plus if you had 35s on a KJ with a 6" lift would you be driving it like a race car and having to need super great brakes??

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:44 pm

Well addressing the "leaf spring" SFA...it would be cheaper and leaf springs are very stable with a coil setup in the rear.

I really wish someone would just make a steel housing for our front diff...add some CV axles that are longer travel (can handle a steeper angle) and slip in a coil-over that gives more room for travel...3" and 32's with no rubbing issues.

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:59 pm

My vote goes for a much improved IFS setup. Most importantly some high angle CV's and steel diff up front. I bought the KJ because it came in a diesel, but also because it was a well rounded machine I dont want to detract to much from the streetability so a little lift help and a lot of flex/strength help is what I would go for.

Rock Lizard · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:24 am

T&T Customs does some awesome work, so whatever they come up with, you can bet it will be top notch. I would say if you were going to spend the money and labor to build the KJ up, SAS is the way to go. I know the IFS is a nice cushy setup and hard to give that up, but by the time you do a lifted IFS setup that is worth a crap, you still have a weak aluminum D30. By the time you spend the time and money finding a strong enough replacement, then locking and gearing, you will have spent just as much if not more than getting a solid front axle, and then you wouldn't have near the flex of the SAS. And for those that don't want to give up the plush ride of IFS, have you ever riden in a solid axle vehicle with long arms? Wow, they ride incredibly well, all because of the setup of the arms. If it were me building a setup for the KJ, it would be very much like the T&T kit for the ZJ: http://www.tntcustoms.com/webV4/zj4linksystem.asp
If you stayed stock width, you could keep the 8.25, and swap in an HPD30 out of most XJ's, although the 97-99 were about the strongest setup for the HPD30 stock. The HPD30 and 29 spline 8.25 is plenty strong enough for running 35's, locked and gears. The biggest set back on the 8.25 is the fact 4:56 gears are the lowest you could go. The 231 TCase is a pretty tough little bugger too. On my XJ, I am currently running the HPD30, C8.25, and 231 TCase, and I have been beating the crap out of it about everyother weekend here in CO, and that's with 35" MTR's. You can pick up and HPD30 for pretty reasonable prices, if it is an older XJ, you can upgrade from the weaker 260 joints to the 297 joints that came in the 97-99 XJ easily.
For steering, placement of the box would be about the most difficult thing, but it's been done before, so it won't be too bad.

Rock Yacht · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:22 am

First of all hello! Let me introduce myself, I am Bob from T&T Customs, Inc. We do Jeeps!

Thanks to Alex for asking the question, as my dad would say you don't know unless you ask. I can see a place in our product line for KJ parts, to what extent is unknown at this point. For the most part, that's up to you folks. Without doing any research or feasability studies I can see 2 approaches to the KJ lift quandry. 1) a basic IFS style lift and 2) (as many of you have pointed out) a more expensive and complicated SAS conversion.

Please keep the ideas and feedback coming. We'll start thinking and looking at ways to do some things for you.

What else are you folks interested in, parts/products wise?

Thanks,

Bob

Jeger · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:36 am

I am glad to see you stick your head in here, shows some real interest in your potential customers.

I think you might have opened a big can of worms with that last line you put in there, so what would i like to see.

I think I could have more fun offroading if I had little fear of blowing up my front diff, so how about the steel diff case, either a swap kit for something else or a custom housing would be great.

Welcome to LOST, I hope you enjoy the ride!!

Jacob

kickit_in4wheel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:07 am

I would like to see a way to make a stronger, steel/iron IFS centersection, like a Ford Bronco Dana 44 work with the KJ IFS.

I would consider any lift that pushed the envelope for larger tire size and/or greater flexibility. A SAS for our front would be great, but it would have to be something that could be packaged up and sent out, and installed by an experienced professional anywhere. Most of us realize that there is a great amount of work involved to make a SFA happen, but we can't all drive our jeeps out to Wyoming. I am very excited about the possibilities.

Tokyojoe · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:39 pm

I think you will find quite a few people wanting a 4" IFS lift....if the front diff could be replaced with something stronger.

Possibilities:

Stronger rear shock mounts
Stronger Rear control arm mounts
Beefier T-case skid
Beefier Front engine skid
SNORKEL (at a comparable price to the Wranglers and other models)

RespectMyLibertay · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:50 pm

Wyoming? Darnit...I thought I was local :twisted:

Well anyways, I'd love to see a sturdy transmission skid available for the KJ other than All-Js super skid. Anything that won't bend, basically!
I think a larger IFS kit would be received more openly by us LOST members than a SAS kit. Superlift and Rock Krawler both make 3"+ lifts for the Commander and the new Grand Cherokee. We feel extremely "neglected", considering these companies decided to create lifts for these new, and more mall-rated vehicles. I don't get why they made that decision, when the KJ has been the most sold SUV of it's class at least one year and the Grand and Commander sales have been nothing but :roll:

. I think they based their decision on the amount of people willing to buy the lift, considering the price, only on this board. There are a huge amount of KJ owners not represented here.
If you could make a SAS kit that would be comparable in price to an 4"+ IFS lift made for, say Toyota trucks, then I'd say you'd have a huge demand. Companies think we aren't willing to dish out the $$$ for a larger IFS lift or SAS kit, but we will. People with 02-04 KJs are sooner than latter going to get past their warranty covereage numbers, and that's when we will be looking for to do something radical to the KJ (35" tires, anyone?). We just don't want to do what Wally did, and spend ~$10K for a SAS. We aren't cheap, but we are very used to looking for lifts that never go above the $1K range.
PERSONAL OPINION: I would pay $1-2K for a good quality IFS kit that could fit 33s with no rubbing. I will never go for a SAS. I would feel like we just proved all the die-hard solid front axle fans right. I mean, yes, we all know that a solid front axle is generally better for rock-crawling, but I have a KJ...it's not a TJ, or an XJ. It's a KJ, it has IFS, and I want to keep it that way. END PERSONAL OPINION

P.S. YOU ARE THE MAN FOR CONSIDERING US AT ALL. If you come out with anything for the KJ, you will almost surely have my money.

T&T CUSTOMS INTERESTED IN LIBERTY!

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