Yeah but how many of those KJs you see on the road are set up or look like they're going off road? Most of these vendors want to see a market before they go after a KJ product. It's hard to see it. But on the other side it seems like most don't want to invest in the R&D either. The old 'I'll buildit if you buy it routine.'

All we can do is keep encouraging these folks.

_________________
Matt Townsend
Sebastopol CA

02 Red Libby w/Frankenlift, Full armor incl AllJ stuff, 245 MTRs on Cragars, ARB locker, custom rack, K&N FIPK, 8000lb winch, RE rear LCAs, Optima Yellow Top, RL Rear Bumper, Custom Front Bumper
98 TJ w/5.5" RE Long arm lift, ARB front/rear, 35x12.5, Borla, Warn winch, Teralow, etc., etc..

Sorry....this has been editted after being in a better mood.

One of those days.

_________________
===
New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military

Didn't say we are not interested fellas, other projects are already in the works. Once those are finished, I'll need something new to do. There has already been enough interest on this thread alone for me to take up the note pad and pencil and start some sketches. Now I just need time in my design studio (shop) to put a KJ on the rack and cut it apart.

If there are local KJ drivers that are willing to lend us their Jeep for a bit you can start letting us know. I can't give you a firm date, but some time this fall. Unfortunately one of the posts above hit it on the head, there has to be interest. R&D is spendy and time consuming.

Cheers, Bob

_________________
T&T Customs, Inc.
"dream it, we can build it!"

Fenders...Fender Flairs...ect. won't really help...it is the inside size of the wheelwell that is the problem...The pinch weld area limits the size of tire right now. I will say that there is some space behind the pinch weld area and another layer of metal. I almost cut mine out of my old KJ...never got around to it because 32's fit.

Money wise and ease of installation, an upgrade to the IFS/Front Diff/Steering will appeal to more people IMHO. In the rear some kinda of A-Arm spacer to get the arm higher on the rear diff and closer to stock position (remove the angle caused by lifting) would be nice.

After that, a more involved Drop Suspension Kit would be nice.

1) Nice CoilOver Kit for front and rear
2) Rear A-Arm Spacer

*** With jeepinal's UCA, this would make for a nice ride with 2.5" of lift

3) New Front Knuckle to take care of UCA/LCA location after lifting

***Would help take the strain off the stock LCA and improve alingment/handling

***All the above to make our KJ's better with 32" or smaller

4) Higher angle CVJoint/Axle
5) Front Diff Replacement to allow for bigger tires...1)thru4)will already lend itself to possible 33's with a Diff Change...Wish someone could fab up a steel replacement shell for the D30 internals and axles
6) Fab a new front cradle that replaces the OEM...new one would have motor mounts and suspension mounts

_________________
Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport
Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph

Not many and its becoming obvious to me as a new KJ owner just after I bought it. I should not have assumed there would be good quality products to buy just like there is for other 4x4's. I will probably stick with it but right away I was questioning if I shoulda looked for an old Cherokee.

That market IMO is the numbers on the road.

My wish list is:
* Front bumper thats not too heavy or expensive, Rock Lizard will probably get my money (more than I wanted to spend) and last I checked it still wasn't available.
* Rear A Arm spacer
* Steering knuckle that fixes both the UBJ and tie rod angles

I am ready to spend money now but no one to take the order.

_________________
Matt
2003 Sport
In Honor of Our Veterans

*Edit*


Okay better mood. Had a bad morning. Sorry for my rants.

The wonders of.............(can't talk about it on here).

_________________
===
New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military

Dang, guys, take it easy. You act like you are the bast@rd children of the jeep world and no one loves you. This post about potential T&T interest has only been up for about three weeks, and you start going off about, "Oh everyone says the same thing about someday doing and no one actually does anything." In many cases sure, but complaining like spoiled children that don't get your way right now isn't going to motivate potential vendors to work faster. If anything, the vendor would think, well if they complain that easily, then it doesn't matter how hard I work on product for them, they will still not be happy. I was one of those vendors what, several years ago now said I planned on doing something for you guys? That is a long time to wait for a vendor to make bumpers and sliders. Think I haven't been working my butt off? Do I get discouraged when I have been working and see those same people that pushed me to make product turn around and push another company for more of the exact same product? Sure I do when I have so much time and money invested already. Vendors should be encouraged to build things, but showing immediate bias against a company and categorizing them with the others companies that showed promise but never came through, is not very encouraging. T&T really has nothing invested in the KJ crowd yet, so it would be easy for them to just walk away if they see working with a group is going to be more headache than what it is worth. A suspension system like what they are proposing is not simple and it is certainly not cheap. Not cheap for them to R&D, and not cheap for the customer paying retail. There is a lot of investment for a company to take a chance on a product that most people would want, but maybe only 2% will buy. That is a big risk. Hopefully a lot more people would get into a big suspension setup like the SFA or IFS swap, but there is no guarantee. When I first started testing the market for bumpers, and posted pictures of a first posterboard mockup of my rear bumper, I wrote down every single person who showed interest. That list was very encouraging. How many people have ordered rear bumpers so far? Just enough for me to keep them in production, but no where near enough yet to pay for the R&D I have put into them, and definately not anywhere near as many people as I have on my list.

A vendor getting into a new market has a big risk. Sure, there is a lot of competition in the Wrangler and Cherokee accessory market, but there is also a much bigger market of those jeep owners wheeling their rigs. There are a lot more KJ owners getting into the offroad scene, but you guys are still a very small market. You already have several disadvantages against you just because you own Liberties, so why add to those disadvantages by comparing a new potential vendor right off the bat with other companies that have let you down? Be realistic with your requests, don't ask for something that you won't ever in your wildest dreams own yourself, or ask for something that the vendors know right away will never work.

Please encourage new (and old) vendors and prove that your are a worthy investment. I am trying to do my part, not only as a vendor making parts for you, but also seeking out other vendors that I think have some of the best products on the market for other vehicles, that would be able to provide great products for KJ owners as well. Bob and Matt from T&T Customs live right up the road from me, so believe me, I am trying to prove to them that you guys are a worthy investment for more product and I will be working with them as much as I can to help them develop new products for you, even if some of those products are in direct competition with my own. Like Bob said, they have to take baby steps first with smaller simpler products, which gives them a foundation to build more products on, as well as test the market without such a huge investment upfront, like an SFA or IFS lift.

OK, so there is my rant, my thoughts, and my suggestions, so I hope that helps you and provides a small bit of hope. If you think I'm a jerk for being honest, and don't want to support my business because I called you a spoiled cry baby of the jeep world, so be it. Just kidding. Just be patient and things will eventually work out for you.

_________________
WWW.ROCKLIZARDFABRICATIONS.COM

Well said, and I will be ordering sliders from you, as your sliders with the bar extensions are the nicest I have seen. Great work. They could be ordered as early as next month-- depending on what else goes wrong and sucks away my money. After that, a FrankenLift CRD II is in order. My goal for that is November or December. Then it will be tires and wheels. Then a chip for the CRD and a pyrometer gauge. Then the snorkel/air filter and that flat roof rack that I saw posted here a couple days ago that holds over 400 pounds and was the awesomest thing I ever saw... since the snorkel last month. Maybe then I will get your bumpers, as I like them the best. If I buy all that stuff, however, I will probably be bankrupt and the Jeep repoed before I ever get to the bumpers But if anyone rear ends me... I will give you a call for sure...

It is finally nice to have the problem of not having enough money to buy parts for the KJ, instead of not having parts for the KJ to buy. I will continue to try to buy a part a month so that you guys will have something coming in. Hopefully others will do likewise.

Marty, I know I'm on that long list of guys that wanted your rear bumper but have yet to make it onto the significantly shorter list of thost that have actually bought one. The reason I bring this up is to highlight a point I'll make later.

I agree that we do tend to whine and cry more than we should about parts availability for the KJ. Sometimes I feel we are justified but then I think about it in the larger sense and we should be blaming Jeep for the lack of parts and not the distributers. I was once told that plans sometimes get forwarded to aftermarket manufacturers by Jeep before the release of a new product. This happened with the new Grand Cherokee and the Commander but didn't happen with the KJ. I'm sure this caused some of the aftermarket manufacturers to write off the KJ as a vehicle that will never see the trail and not look back at it for a few years. Now the KJ market is screaming for parts but is also bitter about being left behind. The maunfacturers are behind the power curve on KJ parts and seem to be hesitant for the same reasons that Marty mentioned above (if we complain so much, what are we going to do once we receive their products?). I agree that if we are patient enough and limit ourselves to constructive criticism, the market will catch up.

As far as people saying they want something then not ponying up the money, there are as many reasons as there are people. That said, for those making the parts, please bear with us. Quite a few of us bought the KJ as a compromise between a trail rig and something practical (then learned how good it is). Since that is the case, quite a few of us don't have the cash flow to build up a trail rig right away. I, for one, have a spreadsheet of parts/mods I plan to do to my KJ that totals near $15,000 and that doesn't include a SFA swap. I've prioritized them for purchase but those purchases generally are only going to happen during tax time. Marty, I said I would buy one of your bumpers, and I will when I can afford it (hopefully this next tax season). All those other parts I have on my spreadsheet aren't going to change either but it will take some time to afford everything. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this predicament and that's why I bring it up.

To sum everything up: Do we complain too much? Yes. Should we complain at all? Yes. Are we complaining to/about the right people? No. Will the market catch up? Yes. Do we have to be patient and encourage more vendors? Yes (as much as we may have to bite all the way through our tongues).

PS: Marty, it's all good, I'm just trying to agree with you as well as playing devil's advocate. Not that I'm feeling the least bit guilty about not cementing my order.

_________________
Pete
L.O.S.T. #PC050458
'04 Timberland Green Sport w/stuff...
'08 105th Anniversary H-D Dyna Low Rider
OH-58D Kiowa Warrior

That’s funny you say that cuz I kinda get treated that way from others with phrases like...oh- your Liberty is kinda cute and such, and it does look a little better with that little lift. Well in all fairness Bob wrote- I'm neck deep in development on the YJ/TJ platform at the moment, as well as trying to get our ZJ up to speed. and then mentioned XJ/ZJ/ and the TJ 3 more times.

l hope you don't gauge what goes on here as what will happen with product sales because IMO while sites like this will contribute to sales its just a tiny part to what sells in magazines, off-road shops & mail order places.

I am sure we all appreciate any and all efforts on the KJ and when someone asks a vendor for something you are working on it only means their tastes are not the same, people are different and want options.

Then why do it? Honestly. Why not focus on smaller more easy less expensive stuff to test the market. Why not be the first to make a 2" spacer for the rear upper A arm, or provide a fix for the horrible bumpsteer with less than horizontal tie rods or even a fender kit to clear 265's?

True but also you don't want to forget that the Cherokee is dead and the Liberty is the replacement.
I didn't mean to come across like that at all, my only let down was after buying the KJ and then realizing I should have investigated what was really available. I got caught up in the whole thing of short wheel base, sealed cab, nice highway manners, replaces the old Cherokee and some lifts are available. So then I do a 2.5" lift and find the rear A arm is in a bind now and it looks like a stink bug so needs a clevis job which was no big deal but now I have bumpster. I just hate to botch a vehicle.

My son does that, make a smart remark and then say Just Kidding, I never did like that and never did know when or if he ever was kidding. I am sure you want business so will assume you are kidding. We live in a world where you can buy a lifted pick up brand new off the dealer lot so its no wonder when a 5 yr KJ owner whines.

To me it seems obvious why the KJ line is where it is today. Had Jeep put a solid axle in the front in the first place I doubt we would even be in these discussions at all. Consumers would have accepted the KJ as a true off roader and the aftermarket would have followed.

All is not lost though because IFS is where manufactures have been heading all along so the consumers and aftermarket will have to get use to it anyway.

_________________
Matt
2003 Sport
In Honor of Our Veterans

Don't worry about it. I know money doesn't grow on trees, I can barely get the things I want for my own rig. I didn't expect everyone on that list to buy right away or at all. When I talk about realistic expectations, I mean what I have brought up before I think in this thread. It would be nice to get a 4" IFS system, but vendors, well atleast the good ones that give a dang instead of just putting out some crap to make a buck, know that by the time you spend the big money on a quality IFS kit, you still have a weak setup. Why put effort into a system that will allow 33" tires but not support it. By the time a stronger IFS diff is found, and money is spent to put it in, you will have about as much money into it as a solid axle setup, and the SFA will ride just as good, or even better, and will certainly flex better, than a lifted IFS setup. Guys like those at T&T know suspensions very well, and they will research and find the best, strongest, and most practical for the price setup they can to make sure you guys are getting your moneys worth. I didn't mean to make this thread about me, so please, everyone read my thread as a vendor perspective, not just a Rock Lizard thing. This thread is about T&T being interested in the KJ market. I am just trying to give you guys an idea what may go through potential vendor's minds when researching the market. Yes, you have a right to complain about the lack of aftermarket support, but do it in a resourceful manner, not just to seek sypathy.

And Matt400, I wasn't trying to single out anyone or their comments. Of course everyone has different tastes and opinions, and maybe I shouldn't have brought up my personal feelings on that matter, because they really are irrelevant and selfish I guess on my part. I am on your side, so I am trying to help however I can in your quest for better aftermarket support.
And of course I was kidding and do want everyones business. You guys have been very supportive of my business, which is why I am trying to help with getting other vendors interested because there is a market for better parts. If you guys weren't so supportive, it would have been easy to walk away like the other companies have. They are the ones missing out, not just you, the customers. If there is going to be a company that eventually comes out with a quality lift kit, or atleast components to improve upon the current setups available, I think T&T is worth waiting for. Once they get a KJ on the rack and spend some quality time looking under one, the ideas will start flowing. I took a KJ to Matt a few weeks ago and we spent a little time rolling around on the ground and he already sounds like he has some great ideas. The KJ has a pretty good foundation already with the unibody/uniframe setup, that will be easy to build upon. Please believe me when I tell you these guys are good, they make awesome products, and they are worth your support and enthusiasm.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Good stuff. The more positive we stay on threads like this the better it will be for other vendors that ARE reading these threads. Keep asking for parts and supporting the vendors that show interest and eventually they will come around. Lost is a small part of their market and they realize that. But If all we do is piss and moan then that is a big part of what they hear and it leaves a bad taste in their mouths.

I have seen a few items, that people "had to have", die because when it came time to pay, those screaming for the parts didn't come through. Small vendors have to make money to survive and if they see people balk at buying what they have already produced they have to cut their losses and bail on the product. Unfortunately, when that happens on a public forum other vendors see it happen and decide to not move forward with their products. I have personally seen this happen with at least three different products since 2002.

THANKS! To those companies that are producing Anything for the KJ.
Thanks also to those vendors that are on here watching and thinking about making products!

_________________
99 TJ
71 C101
04 KJ
03 SFA KJ Sport
LOST JEEPS So-Cal

Looking forward to see where this goes.....

_________________
Feb/2006 Silver Sport 4x4 CRD

I for one am not ready to to throw a lot of money into the jeep, but it wont be long, so dont give up on me. Develop some good stuff and consider me a potential future customer

_________________
It may be that your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

06 CRD Sport
Built 5/11/06
Jeep Green
Rocklizard diff cover
V6 Airbox

Me too, heck I am excited to see manufactures actually take the time to participate in these forums.
I probably vented more than I should but oh well...thats just how I feel being new to the KJ and all.

_________________
Matt
2003 Sport
In Honor of Our Veterans

WOW ignore the forum a few days and come back to this!!!!

Well we are the B@st cildren of the Jeep world, well until the Compass Well, as for the products and whinning about it all, I am withh JJ, I have seen all those ideas die and many loose money because of it! Can't we all just get along?
I know I have been critical of a "Super" lift company that promised us a lift back in early '02 (to me face to face in person) and as of today, still nothing from them, and the excuse is always the same that they are working on other things... My reason on this is I feel they lied to me personnally on this one, but hey their loss not mine... As for the complaints of other vendors working on all of the other Jeeps and ignoring us, read KWAV8R's post above, he hit the nail on the head. So come on gang, we have come a long way in the 5 years since a few of us divorced from JU and created the first LOST forum and Club. Let us not self destruct ourselves and loose our heads, be patient. Many of us have wheeled with important people from many companies (to include DC and those directly involved with the Liberty's design) and they are noticing that we do wheel our stuff, and many ideas are abound to be capitalized upon. It takes time to build things that are good quality and many are serious for this stuff. The one that obviously comes to mind now is RL's bumpers, we started them Last November, and the first batch of rears are due to him soon, we fit several prototypes, and he made a lot of changes along the way, then we got it all fitted by MOAB for a debut, and he told me to beat the crap out of them, I looked at him like he was joking, and then he told me how serious he was, and those who saw me at MOAB and here in CO, have seen the R&D for this project and his sliders.
Just the fact that theses guys are on here asking for our opinions, and are willing to use us for R&D shows that they have nothing to hide and helps us to have direct insight into the products for us. Let's not stop this helping relationships with vendors that want to help us.

I guess this went a little long, so I will end on this note...
If you are discouraged from building your rig because the companies do not build what you want, that is your right, but remember, if we keep our criticisms constructive, we have a better chance at influencing policy than if we simply b____ about it. Offer suggestions and do not be offended when it does not happen, believe me vendors listen to customer suggestions. You cannot please everyone, but the more you do, the more money you get And after all is said and done, that is the bottom line, $$$ to pay their bills, employees, and feed their own families.

_________________
I'm baaaaccckkk...
LOST Member 10
If you can read this you don't need glasses, go Wheel your Jeep!

OK I want to put in my $.02

I have been around the aftermarket and modifying vehicles, literally my entire life. Mostly 4x4 and offroad for the last 18 years. The market takes time to find/filter the vehicles that will have a demand for product....Be patient, it will come.

When I built my wifes old XJ, I could only find a 3" lift. I wanted more! I ended up fabbing arms and having springs custom made....Later came RE with their stuff, then many more to follow. I also made my own bumpers and nerf bars....now there are MANY to choose from in the market....

If you want it now, get out in the shop and build it. This stuff is not rocket science. There is more info on the web then you can imagine!! I know most people don't have the time or equipment to fab stuff, but you would be amazed what can be done with a chop saw and a 110 mig!! Get out there and try it, you might be surprised at what you can do!

If that isn't an option for you, consider many of the custom shops around the country that do this sort of fab work. It is not cheap, but you get exactly what you want. Don't nickle and dime those guys either....From my experience, a one off bumper was in the range of 18-24 hrs to build....a second one of the same knocked a couple hours off....You have to be up in the 15+ of the same piece to make a dent in the price and make it worth having stuff lazer/water cut, and seting up a jig to weld it....

So I want to applaud RockLizard, TnT and others for sticking their necks out and building this stuff. It is a lot of work for a small profit....I have been there and done that!!

I look forward to fabbing stuff for our KJ when time allows, but I plan to support these vendors too! Sometimes it is much easier to NOT reinvent the wheel!!

So THANKS!

_________________
2006 CRD KJ sport 2.5" with 235/85/16's
95 F250 PSD (not stock)
73 Bronco Buggy (REALLY not stock)
90 Miata (sold)
'49 Studebaker PU (sold)

Ive never seen so many LONG posts.

_________________
LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

Sorry slow day at work....a little long winded today

_________________
2006 CRD KJ sport 2.5" with 235/85/16's
95 F250 PSD (not stock)
73 Bronco Buggy (REALLY not stock)
90 Miata (sold)
'49 Studebaker PU (sold)

Everybody just take a Midol. Let's get back on task.....

1. IFS lift. 4-5" There will probably be one available pretty soon, won't there. I can think of 1 guy that has been working on one for a while now. He'll probably clean up.

2. Tranny/Xfer skid all in one. (Beefy, no rub on exhaust, use existing holes??)

3. Relocated shock mounts.

4. Sliders with some rocker protection that covers up close to the bottom of the door (not purely horizontal but with slight incline).

5. Roof racks are always a big hit. (Various mounts for Hi Lift, lights front and rear, shovel etc...)

6. Snorkel would be sweet.

7. Shock mount skids.

8. Clevis spacer for ready to go clevis lift.

9. I've seen people ask for an adjustable tri-link.

10. Adjustable RLCAs

edit: removed rear sway bar disco since the rear sway bar can just be removed with no problems.

etc...........

There's tons of little stuff that would not take much R&D

_________________
'03 Sport 4x4 140k miles. Yeah, she's had some work done