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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:16 pm 
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oz_crd wrote:
I own a CRD, I hate the EGR vavle problems. But dont blame this on the EPA. I could hear everyone bitching about the EPA if we all lived next to a toxic waste dump, or if you lived somewhere like Pittsburgh, PA in the early 1900s where pollution was so bad you could barely see the sun. Without some kind of emmission controls, there would be more respiratory health problems in the US, so just be glad that the underappreciated people at the EPA (my wife is one) are out there protecting you. Would you all like to go back to the 60's, where everyone was spewing lead into the air with each fillup? I also would like to find a solution, but I think that falls on the shoulders of our auto manufacturers coming up with systems and parts that dont crap out every 18,ooo miles.


For better or worse, the EPA is what is. It's a regulatory body that is creating laws wanted by the public but which the manufacturers barely fullfill because the public does not want to pay for that in the purchase of their vehicle.

So here we sit with purchased vehicles that have crappy manufacturer emission systems in order to meet the EPA laws that we as a general public want.

Since we purchased these vehicles, the manufacturer will not re-invent these systems for us, but instead we need to protect the longevity of the vehicle within the law. That's basically what we are saying here with regard to the EGR.

_________________
2005 Black CRD Limited w/105,000 miles
Mann Provent 200, Airbox Mod, ORM Mod
New 545RFE, TC & Redesigned pump @ 25,020 miles
New EGR Flow Control Valve @ 25,020 miles
New Transfer Case input/output seals @ 32,787 miles
SEGR Kit @ 52,000 miles
SunCoast TC and Transgo Shift Kit @ 52,000 miles


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 Post subject: That doesn't excuse the results
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:31 pm 
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Quote:
But dont blame this on the EPA. I could hear everyone bitching about the EPA if we all lived next to a toxic waste dump, or if you lived somewhere like Pittsburgh, PA in the early 1900s where pollution was so bad you could barely see the sun. Without some kind of emmission controls, there would be more respiratory health problems in the US, so just be glad that the underappreciated people at the EPA (my wife is one) are out there protecting you. Would you all like to go back to the 60's, where everyone was spewing lead into the air with each fillup? I also would like to find a solution, but I think that falls on the shoulders of our auto manufacturers coming up with systems and parts that dont crap out every 18,ooo miles.


Oh please. Don't attempt to lump the absurd position the EPA is taking on NOx emissions with legitimate pollution regulation. No one said anything about the underappreciated people at the EPA or blamed the poor reliability of the egr on the EPA. The EPA's function is a much needed regulatory function - but it needs competent leadership who can demonstrate it by their results that they know how to implement workable policy that actually does what its supposed to do. The NOx emission policy is indirectly responsible for these attempts to control burn temperatures with egr - SCR and plasma technologies are at least 3 years away from widespread manufacture and adoption. The EPA is not responsible for DC 's quality nor did anyone ever say so. But had they looked at what those with 2 decades of diesel experience (Europe) ahead of the US did, with an open mind, they might have come up with a less draconian emissions policy.

Instead, we have the absurd determination by many within the EPA that NOx is the major contributor to smog formation, in the face of real world evidence, as well as scientific study, that directly contradicts that position and in fact may worsen pollution. This is what many object to - as well as the dogged determinedness of the EPA to stick to their agenda instead of proposing alternative strategies.

There are always good people in any organization, even those with self serving leadership running the organization. The position of the EPA that is so objectionable is the "pick and choose the results of test I want to validate my position" is what I'm referring to. The EPA is an organization like any other standards body, filled with people, some with good intentions and some with other agendas - abuse of power can occur wherever people can make decisions without feedback on performance from the people paying their salaries - in this case, the taxpayers.

Don't confuse the good that the EPA of 30 years ago, with some different personnel at the helm, with the agenda they demonstrate today. While there are some good projects occuring there, the consistent mesasage and regulations have been largely political in nature and not entirely backed by demonstrable good science. If you doubt that, consider what Europeans scientists determined - that CO2 is far more damaging than NOx and worked out a far more progressive schedule for emissions control that is actually achievable than that of EPA. I'm not referring to the Kyoto treaty here either, with its loopholes big enough to drive a country through, (China comes to mind), while others paid the price of admission for the rest of the world.

You've made a huge leap back to the dark ages with pollution going unchecked and auto and other manufacters running rampant with abuses and equated the good the EPA did in the 70's to the nonsense they're putting out today. It's not even close. The abuses from companies went on until some mandated changes were made and rightly so. The EPA is not an all knowing, monolithic organization filled with scientists, completely objective, openly soliciting opposing scientific veiwpoints, whose sole mission in life is to reduce pollution in an achievable manner. If you think that, look at the huge disparity between rules for gasolene and diesel, and the almost religous quest for electric-gas hybrids from the EPA. Before you think I'm assuming the entire EPA is out of touch with current technology and incompetent, I don't - just most of their leadership, acting as though they have autonomy and can issue regulations with impunity.

There was a time when EPA rules were absolutely validated - like the Love canal incident, the absolute destruction of innocent lives due to the same kind of personal agenda, i.e. self serving thinking occuring at the company that polluted that section of land as is currently going on at the top levels of EPA. Note that I said both had self serving agendas, not identical agendas. Both had leadership with issues. Human agendas, when in conflict with common sense, good science and progressive implementation, are just as damaging and self serving when they occur at EPA as when they do at Dow Chemical, GM or Toyota.

No, I will not be glad the EPA is doing what it is currently doing when they behave as they have been the last decade or so. As time goes by, people change, knowledge changes, and organizations change. I don't like what DC did quality wise on the egr system anymore than the policy the EPA has phased in on NOx. Both are subpar.

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 Post subject: Re: That doesn't excuse the results
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:44 pm 
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The position of the EPA that is so objectionable is the "pick and choose the results of test I want to validate my position" is what I'm referring to. .


Gee, that pretty well describes the way everything is run under the current presidency, doesnt it? I was just getting sick of all the EPA bashing. If you think you can make a difference, try bugging your local congressman. Everything is influenced by politics, but pissing and moaning about the EPA scapegoat doesn't help much. Maybe we could start a political rant message board to seperate this tangent from the good info that this thread started out with.

Anyway, if you can come up with a real source that would back you up in saying that it is "absurd" to imply that NOx is a major smog precursor, please post it. My wife has been working with air quality in MO for 4 years, and I have a degree in Environmental Science, and we have never heard it said that NOx is not a contibutor to smog.

I do have to admit, I wish we could have bought a CRD without an EGR and all the troubles that come with it. But, my next vehicle is not likely to be from DC, so life should get easier at that point.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:00 pm 
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I'm interested in the EPA only to the extent that their lack of problem solving skills negatively affects our vehicles and diesel choices. The other political diversion you offer has no relevence to our emission control devices in this forum. If bringing accountability to my local congressman of the EPA's disruption of an entire industry that could save our economy tens of millions of barrels of imported oil annually and reduce global warming, then so be it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:01 pm 
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Ranger1 wrote:
Quote:
How about we figure out what is causing these to fail, and then how to either fix it or out smart it?


Without enough data collected to detect a trend or pattern within all of the failed egr valves, we could experiement, via Internet communication, with yours... for example. we know from owners with egr temp gauges what some commond CRD exhaust temperatures are while idling, cruising at 60-75 mph and on cooldown. Iirc, on a CRD at operating temperature, these are ~ 450 - 650F on idle, 750-950 on highway driving and I believe the max I can recall is about 1100F at WOT.

So, if you can rig a thermometer up on your egr valve and supply a heat source of 450F - 650F to the sooty area of the egr valve itself, would it be possible to see what that soot looks like once heated for 10, 20 or even 30 hours of 500F temperatures? Minus the solenoid of course. Maybe a kiln oven that ceramics are baked in would do - no external thermometer needed if that's available. I would be tempted to put it in the oven for a 10 hour period, but I know what my wifes reaction would be - so I wouldn't dare suggest that

Let me throw this into the mix: I see EGR failures on larger Detroit Diesel products (transit bus engines) all day long. The only difference in design (other than size) is the EGR valve is mounted closer to the turbo and run by a pneumatic control. One of our mechanics told me to think of this simple chemical formula: Oil residue + soot + heat = charcoal. This coats everything and bakes in place mucking-up the works and will even cause the VGT fins to stick and not spool correctly. I've even known our mechanics to apply a couple of well placed hammer hits to the EGR/Turbo housing to free things up enough to drive the coach to the garage. The build-up gets so bad that large lumps break looses and either lodge in the EGR valve or worse, rattle around in the turbine housing until it takes the VGT fins clean off of the turbine. Only speculation, I think the EGR was moved to the far side of the engine to get it away from the heat of the turbo (earlier VM Motori's show the valve next to the turbo like DDC's big stuff). In theory, replacing the muffler with a free-flow type (which is already known to reduce EGT significantly) should help the situation.

From what I see from the photos, there is not much room for soot build-up before the valve plates are restricted from moving. It also would not take much for a piece of "charcoal" to lodge in an open valve seat. Still believe the key to keeping this valve working besides making less soot (use ULSD and biodiesel) is to control the amount of oil being sucked in through the CAC.

What is encouraging is these parts are likely cleanable and a rebuildable/core exchange style component. Fortunately for me, it someone elses problem for another 81,100 miles until the warranty runs out.

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Last edited by RFCRD on Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That doesn't excuse the results
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
Maybe we could start a political rant message board to seperate this tangent from the good info that this thread started out with.
Pure sarcasm on my part. Sorry for the diversion everybody. Great pics of the EGR system, I tried to get the old parts from my dealer, but I bet they do clean them up and use them again since it is a pretty simple valve. I have the Provent on ours, and I hope it makes this newer valve last a while.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:21 pm 
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Comparing the user experience with egr valves on TDI diesels and the pictures they post of clogged egr housings, I keep asking myself why those seem to clog, but not until somewhere between 40K and 70K miles. The common elements to the TDI and CRD are US spec diesel fuel, driving dynamics and ambient temperature range. So what is an identifiable difference that could account for the early failure of the CRD egr valve? Iirc, both use a Pierberg part, but not completely sure.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:29 pm 
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It seems like from reading all the above posts...and this might be too simple...but if we could fing a way to further cool the recirculated gases before they reach the EGR and hit the heat and turn to charcoal...we might be on to something. Adding some kinda of cooler...like a small oil cooler...in the path of colder outside air. It seems like...even though you can not get rid of the soot/gases...if you substantially decrease the heat, the "coking" might become a mute point.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
The only difference in design (other than size) is the EGR valve is mounted closer to the turbo


Does the egr gas and air mixture flow through the intercooler?

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
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IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:41 pm 
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Ranger1 wrote:
Quote:
The only difference in design (other than size) is the EGR valve is mounted closer to the turbo


Does the egr gas and air mixture flow through the intercooler?


No it's not designed to go through the intercooler. Only Fresh air along with CCV output get pumped through the air-cooler.

The question is also where in the process of recirculating the gases is the EGR Cooler located at? The EGR Cooler "should be" doing the function that Darby is suggesting.
I guess I'll make another trip to the shop.

_________________
2005 Black CRD Limited w/105,000 miles
Mann Provent 200, Airbox Mod, ORM Mod
New 545RFE, TC & Redesigned pump @ 25,020 miles
New EGR Flow Control Valve @ 25,020 miles
New Transfer Case input/output seals @ 32,787 miles
SEGR Kit @ 52,000 miles
SunCoast TC and Transgo Shift Kit @ 52,000 miles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:51 pm 
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Ranger1 wrote:
Quote:
The only difference in design (other than size) is the EGR valve is mounted closer to the turbo


Does the egr gas and air mixture flow through the intercooler?

No, just the physical placement of the valve is actually in a cast assembly located close to the exhaust port side of the turbo. A very long, stainless steel EGR tube runs over the top of the accessory drive and downward to the intake casting. I haven't taken one apart to see if they use a flow control valve in the intake casting like our CRD. They do have a sensor/probe in the EGR tube at roughly the mid-point. These DDC engines do not run a CCV. The oil they pass are from other issues, mostly the injested soot has scored/trashed the upper cylinder walls/rings/piston causing them to pass oil. From there, it's a death spiral. We are already into engine replacements on 3 yr old buses from this problem on what should be million mile engines.

I was looking at these photos thinking a by-pass could start with replacing the valve body with a simple machined box with a spring plate to mimic the action of the valve and fool the electric solinoid into thinking the valve is working. That solinoid probably has a built-in proximity switch telling the computer the position of the valve. From there the plumbing could be removed and/or plate over the ports, except the port into the intake casting. Hook that remaining port to a filter air supply with a check valve in the line. Might just be enough to fool the computer. If the EGR valve is clean and in good working order, might be able to plumb filtered fresh air through it (instead of exhaust gases) and simply plate over the turbo port, would have the same effect. As long as there is flow of sufficient quantity, the MAF probably would not know the difference.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:31 pm 
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How about feeding cold fresh air to the EGR thru a hose for cooling...like for brake ducts in racing?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:04 am 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
How about feeding cold fresh air to the EGR thru a hose for cooling...like for brake ducts in racing?


How about pulling the exhaust gases from a point further down the tailpipe, I know it would require a crazy long pipe to feed the thing, but, those exhaust gasses would be significantly cooler by the time they got to the rear axle. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but those are some crazy long posts back there, and I only skimmed through most of it thus far. :oops:

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 Post subject: Ford 6.0 PSD's have this problem also.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:58 am 
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Their owners just unplug them.

Some models require removal of a throttle plate under the EGR and the light stays on unless you "borrow" a good EGR from the dealer to reset the light.

Has anyone done any work toward blocking this thing off or bypassing it? Or is everybody still under warranty and unwilling to muck it up?

Popular mechanics had a testy vehicle with EGR problems that eventually got a new throttle body.

Quote:
A Little More Info On Our Jeep Liberty CRD
Okay, as promised here's what we found out from DaimlerChrysler: the regional techs replaced the entire throttle body on the Liberty's little Italian-built 2.8-liter four-cylinder turbodiesel because of either 1. the possibility of temperature swing-induced leakage at the clamping areas, or 2. possible stripped teeth on a motor-driven, spring-loaded air management valve integral with the throttle body.
We believe that's a fair assessment because 1. No matter how many diagnostic trouble trees a tech completes, sometimes he just has to start thinking past his nose and let his black magic experience take over, and 2. this is the first application of this powertrain in a U.S.-spec Liberty so there are practically no past service issues to draw on. Plus, the Check Engine light is staying off, which likely means they nailed it.
The EGR valve apparently was never a real issue, but was replaced twice because the engine management system kept spitting out codes that led Manhattan Jeep down that line of diagnostics. Hopefully, they'll know better next time.
True, we're not strapped for a daily driver the way the typical Jeep Liberty CRD owner might have been under the same circumstances. So it's easier for us to say this was a well-handled, professional service experience. But we also didn't get any special treatment. Sometimes fixing modern cars just isn't that straightforward.--Ken Juran


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:41 pm 
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The more I ponder this situation, I'm skeptical about how many TRUE failed EGR valves are being replaced by techs and not being mistaken for the Intake Throttle Valve. Both the EGR Valve and the Intake Throttle Valve have been mistaken by techs in their characterisations of "replacing the EGR Valve".

We have seen the Intake Throttle Valve that feeds CAC from the intercooler have issues with the plastic gears and getting oily soot on the butterfly valve from the CAC.

One other thing to note is that the plastic gears used to operate the butterfly valve are awfully close to the engine and the EGR heat pipe feeding the exhaust gases to the EGR. So one wonders that "plastic gears + heat = P0401 code" as the plastic gears then don't operate freely. Look how close that shiny EGR exhasut pipe is to those gears.
By the way that shiny EGR exhaust pipe is mated to the round orifice on the EGR Valve pictured earlier in this post.
That's what's bringing those exhaust gases to the EGR valve.

Image

_________________
2005 Black CRD Limited w/105,000 miles
Mann Provent 200, Airbox Mod, ORM Mod
New 545RFE, TC & Redesigned pump @ 25,020 miles
New EGR Flow Control Valve @ 25,020 miles
New Transfer Case input/output seals @ 32,787 miles
SEGR Kit @ 52,000 miles
SunCoast TC and Transgo Shift Kit @ 52,000 miles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:11 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:
SpecialAgent,

Disabling the EGR is not difficult in itself. Options include:

... a lot of things, from simple to impossible ...

I certainly don't know my way around the engine, but I read L.O.S.T. every day (and stayed in a Holiday Inn once ;-) ). I thought that doing the relatively simple EHM modification effectively disables the EGR 's involvment in the engine. Or not? Or is there air/exhaust coming into the EGR from another place?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:53 pm 
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KenJennings wrote:
I certainly don't know my way around the engine, but I read L.O.S.T. every day (and stayed in a Holiday Inn once ;-) ). I thought that doing the relatively simple EHM modification effectively disables the EGR 's involvment in the engine. Or not? Or is there air/exhaust coming into the EGR from another place?


The EHM is for not allowing the CCV blowby to enter into the compressor side of the turbo and then passing into the intercooler.

The fresh air is coming from the output of the intercooler and into the throttle body intake that is shown in this post. The exhaust gases are piped in from the engine exhaust into the EGR valve.

_________________
2005 Black CRD Limited w/105,000 miles
Mann Provent 200, Airbox Mod, ORM Mod
New 545RFE, TC & Redesigned pump @ 25,020 miles
New EGR Flow Control Valve @ 25,020 miles
New Transfer Case input/output seals @ 32,787 miles
SEGR Kit @ 52,000 miles
SunCoast TC and Transgo Shift Kit @ 52,000 miles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:11 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
How about feeding cold fresh air to the EGR thru a hose for cooling...like for brake ducts in racing?

My thought of cooling the valve was to eliminate the exhaust gas flow, replacing it with fresh air, thus no heat or soot to gunk things up. Just allow the EGR to function as designed, only supply fresh air to the valve.

Ponder this idea: How about drawing a fresh air supply feed from the lid of the airbox, before the MAF. This should cause the MAF to detect a slight flow/pressure differential when the valve opens, immitating normal conditions. Any thoughts???

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:59 am 
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As much as I'm in favor of lobbying the EPA, I also support the work-around fix.

I think we'd need a positive pressure source of air to get some flow...or a way to fool/bypass the sensor.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:03 am 
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If the problem with egr valve failure is soot buildup, then couldn't we just clean up a failed one and reinstall it, thereby saving money each time one fails?


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