New Customer Satisfaction Recall - F37

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:09 am

Changing the torque curve will be a legally fuzzy area. If you want to get technical, it will be likely that the engine still can deliver 295 ft-lbs, just managed differently by the TCM. I have owned several commercial vehicles where this type of reflash has been done. Most of the time it refines the torque delivery during shifting and improves smoothness. Yes, you will likely feel the difference some in driveability, especially if you prefer the hard/thump upshift feel that gives you the sensation of high performance. Would not be surprised to find the F31 reflash already has this logic change (some have described as the "rubber-band" effect). I wouldn't jump to conclusions over the raw numbers. Get the repair work done and drive it for awhile before you pass judgement.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:16 am

Well, those of us on this board are certainly pretty technical, so I think it would be helpful if DC could elaborate on how exactly they are changing the power output of our vehicles. Many of us purchased this Diesel specifically for towing abilites and IF they are reducing the max torque output of the engine, I think we deserve to know the details of this adjustment before we just take our vehicle in and have it done.

Flying J · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:19 am

I applaud Chrysler for stepping up to the plate to do something before a lawsuit...That being said, I am a little concerned about THIS response.

1) I agree with other posters - use adequate parts that will handle the torque - don't derate the engine to match the parts.

2) I live in the Sierra's and bought the CRD to tow a travel trailer up steep passes. I want to know how much is a 'small reduction in engine torque'. I can't afford to give up any.

Chrysler has a history of derating a vehicle after purchase - anyone else remember the Dakota R/T towing fiasco?

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/re ... 152928.DOC
http://www.davidontheweb.com/RT/rtabout.htm

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:58 am

no-blue-screen wrote:

Well, those of us on this board are certainly pretty technical, so I think it would be helpful if DC could elaborate on how exactly they are changing the power output of our vehicles. Many of us purchased this Diesel specifically for towing abilites and IF they are reducing the max torque output of the engine, I think we deserve to know the details of this adjustment before we just take our vehicle in and have it done.

I agree that DC is being vague on the subject and in turn causing themselves more trouble by appearing evasive. It's also a difficult aspect to explain the average customer. Try to explain to the typical buyer that a torque "curve" is a potential output level, can vary depending on load, and is controlled by the transmission's computer (not the engine's). Would be like trying to teach calculus to a 3rd grader. The critical questions will be, does it work as represented and is it any more reliable with the fixes made? Ranger 1 is right, you would need to chassis-dyno one to achieve a measurable peak load to know. You would also need a one tested pre-recall as a benchmark for comparison. This would be essential to build any kind of sound legal case.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:29 pm

The Dodge Cummins I drive for work has a flat spot in the power right before redline. This is also where it shifts at full throttle. I figured the computer is reducing output as the engine nears the redline, but maybe the trans is calling for reduced torque? Just wondering if this is what this latest reflash might be like.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:40 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

A couple of us have had the torque reduction flash (earlier this year) and you can feel the difference. It also stays in much higher rpm ranges when accelerating. for much longer than it used to. The best description I've seen on how it behaves is from DZL_LOU on the thread where he discusses how his new transmission feels in comparison. Especially the section where he describes the difference in accelerating accross an intersection.

It appears to come down to either putting in heavier duty TC's, or changing the programming to reduce torque and put a new standard tc in the CRD. Looks like they chose the 2nd option.

Yep, DC is all about cost-cutting these days, standard parts for everything. A unique TC just for our limited-run diesel goes against the corporate grain.

From what I've heard, you can get a heck of a deal on an '06 Cummins 6 speed right now. Owe less than $5K on the Crd and still less than 15K miles, this recall might be the final straw that makes me say "screw it".

Now for the $35K question - is the Grand Cherokee CRD with the MB V6 going to use the same weak-kneeded TC/tranny combo, such that eventually they're going to have to derate that engine as well? If so, DC may as well pack it in now and forget about selling any diesels other than Cummins pickups.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:47 pm

One would think they would put the MB tranny behind the MB V6 as that is what they did for Euro models.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

I was in for service yesterday and they reflashed the crd at the same time. I noticed a difference as soon as I pulled out of the lot. It pulls less and does rev higher and longer. I think eventually the after-market manufacturers will market a bullet proof torque converter for the crd just as they do for the big 3 light duty diesels. A new torque converter along with some custom programming that increases HP and torque along with tweaking the EGR will make this a great vehicle.

dumptruck · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:02 pm

If all the parts in the trans. are the same why are some CRD's not involed, like mine. Most have had the same TSB's.
Greg

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:20 pm

midwest wrote:

I was in for service yesterday and they reflashed the crd at the same time. I noticed a difference as soon as I pulled out of the lot. It pulls less and does rev higher and longer. I think eventually the after-market manufacturers will market a bullet proof torque converter for the crd just as they do for the big 3 light duty diesels. A new torque converter along with some custom programming that increases HP and torque along with tweaking the EGR will make this a great vehicle.

Don't know about that - a limited run out of production vehicle, only 15K built - the big boys in the aftermarket world may not see much profit in going after a limited market such as this.

On top of that, between an aftermarket TC and an add-on module, you'd be talking somewhere around $1500 - $2000 out of MY pocket, just to return the vehicle to the way it was when I bought it from DC? :roll:

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:29 pm

For those like me who aren't yet having any trans problems, why not wait and see what happens? There may be a revision to this soon. If it doesn't include any upgraded parts like the pump, they can keep their recall until I have problems. I assume there will eventually be a letter going out on this, but I still don't have a ball joint letter. I assume it is because mine was a leftover 05 with a late in service date. Half inclined to get my ECM cloned before I get flashed against my will.

cerich · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:47 pm

I'm surprised how many seem to think they are going to R&R the TC with the same part. No way, all it would do is cause DC to pay 5.5-6.5 hours to the dealers plus parts and not solve the issue. In my earlier post you'll see that DC has pre positioned just under 700 TC's for the CRD in Atlanta alone, that effort means a new design.

bugnout · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:49 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

For those like me who aren't yet having any trans problems, why not wait and see what happens? There may be a revision to this soon. If it doesn't include any upgraded parts like the pump, they can keep their recall until I have problems.

My thoughts exactly, my CRD is running great, no issues, so why let them touch it. Oh yea, this isn't a recall is it, its a Customer Satisfaction Notification. :wink:

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:51 pm

cerich wrote:

I'm surprised how many seem to think they are going to R&R the TC with the same part. No way, all it would do is cause DC to pay 5.5-6.5 hours to the dealers plus parts and not solve the issue. In my earlier post you'll see that DC has pre positioned just under 700 TC's for the CRD in Atlanta alone, that effort means a new design.

I'd say you're probably right. I think there may well be a redesign of the TC, but what is strange is that the front pump is not mentioned. There are known problems there and a redesigned pump to address those problems. Why not kill two birds with one stone? I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they are putting back the same converters either. They could be hoping that the detune will be enough to get them out of warranty.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Now for the $35K question - is the Grand Cherokee CRD with the MB V6 going to use the same weak-kneeded TC/tranny combo, such that eventually they're going to have to derate that engine as well? If so, DC may as well pack it in now and forget about selling any diesels other than Cummins pickups.

I wondered the same thing (briefly) until I thought about who would be servicing and or repairing the GC CDI - the same dealerships who serviced our Liberty CRD's. Unless the GC CDI turns out to be so solid right from the factory that they never need anything more than oil changes from the dealer, it's a crap shoot. We won't know how good the GC CDI is until a year or two passes once they come out.

The truth is, the CRD has a great engine, with a reputation badly and undeservedly tarnished by a cheap $10 factory CCV valve, and really bad business decision on an inadequate TC. I really believe if they hadn't cut costs so badly in these 2 areas, we wouldn't be here discussing this sad story today. But we are, and their handling of the situation since early 2005 is sub-par.

That being said, I've already had the power detuned, still have the crappy rev happy TCM flash, so I'm going to get this latest recall performed, then determine how well it works. I don't see how it could get any worse than it is now on mine. If it improves the performance, I'll post it here.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

retmil46 wrote:

midwest wrote:

I was in for service yesterday and they reflashed the crd at the same time. I noticed a difference as soon as I pulled out of the lot. It pulls less and does rev higher and longer. I think eventually the after-market manufacturers will market a bullet proof torque converter for the crd just as they do for the big 3 light duty diesels. A new torque converter along with some custom programming that increases HP and torque along with tweaking the EGR will make this a great vehicle.

Don't know about that - a limited run out of production vehicle, only 15K built - the big boys in the aftermarket world may not see much profit in going after a limited market such as this.

On top of that, between an aftermarket TC and an add-on module, you'd be talking somewhere around $1500 - $2000 out of MY pocket, just to return the vehicle to the way it was when I bought it from DC? :roll:

Sad but probably true. Although I think aftermarket programs/tuning will unleash lots more power.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

bugnout wrote:

Goglio704 wrote:

For those like me who aren't yet having any trans problems, why not wait and see what happens? There may be a revision to this soon. If it doesn't include any upgraded parts like the pump, they can keep their recall until I have problems.

My thoughts exactly, my CRD is running great, no issues, so why let them touch it. Oh yea, this isn't a recall is it, its a Customer Satisfaction Notification. :wink:

I too have had no transmission problems other than the initial TSB. Rest assured, if the dealer gets their hands on your CRD for any reason, they will most likely reflash it.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

cerich wrote:

I'm surprised how many seem to think they are going to R&R the TC with the same part. No way, all it would do is cause DC to pay 5.5-6.5 hours to the dealers plus parts and not solve the issue. In my earlier post you'll see that DC has pre positioned just under 700 TC's for the CRD in Atlanta alone, that effort means a new design.

I think you're correct - but deriving from the power reduction part of the TSB, we are guessing that the new part probably has some upgraded clutch surfaces, a little heavier duty than most of the 05's OEM parts, but not a heavy duty TC strong enough to handle the original power curve programming. Sounds like a balance of cost and longevity. If DC would offer CRD owners an option to pay for a heavy duty TC and restore the original power programming, I'd take that option over the detuning and high revving nature of the flash I have now. You have to drive it to really understand how radically it changes nature of the CRD that we know. It drives more like a gasser now. Once you get used to the low rev, high torque of a diesel, having it rev in the 3K range at the drop of a hat doesn't feel right.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:17 pm

The MB V6 will most likely have the MB tranny since it was built with a 650 ft lb of torque, where the CRD tranny was built for about 350 or a little less if I remember correctly. I just do not see D/C putting a 375 ft lb torque diesel engine behind the 545RLE that just barely handles 275 ft lbs of torque of the VM diesel.

Taz · **Posted:** Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:59 pm

The Grand Cherokee CRD will most likely have the W5A580 transmission that they have been using in European CG CRD.

New Customer Satisfaction Recall - F37

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