New Customer Satisfaction Recall - F37

T^2 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:39 pm

midwest wrote:

I was in for service yesterday and they reflashed the crd at the same time. I noticed a difference as soon as I pulled out of the lot. It pulls less and does rev higher and longer.

I've seen a couples of post that reported similar results.

oldnavy wrote:

I checked one of my sources today and I am told by him that yes they will reduce the torque output by about 5% to 7% at most. The source was that I would probably see a small increase in MPG's and that is what has helped me decide on having the TCM & ECM reflashed. It does seem that we will not be getting an stronger TQ, the part # is a recall part # and and only used for tracking purposes. The CRD's not effected are all built after Jan '06 and have exactly the same TC as the '05 and early '06 models of FSN37. I say again the TC according to source will be same TC and not upgraded. He also stated that the average cusomer should not be able to tell any difference towing ability and that the only thing we should see is smoother shifting and more responsive engine...

oldnavy wrote:

The replacement TC's are the same as any TC currently in a CRD or on the dealer's parts shelf so my parts source tell me.

KJbob wrote:

…My service advisor told me the info the dealer is getting specifies a certain part number for the replacement torque converter. I'm getting the impression it's not just a copy of the torque converter that was installed at the factory…

CRD4ME wrote:

I spoke with the dealer today regarding the work involved, and parts to be used. The initial work calls for the TC to be replaced with the one used on the 4.7L gas engines in some Grand Cherokees and Durangos. This TC apparently is a bit smaller and therefore has a higher stall speed. They feel the difference in stall speed should offset the reduction in torque programmed in the TCM/ECM...

retmil46 wrote:

One thing I've noticed on this thread - everyone that has talked to a dealer or service advisor has related a DIFFERENT version of what this recall is supposed to entail. :?:

I've L.O.S.T. track of how many different variations there are by now.

About the only thing I know with any kind of certainty from dealing with this beast over the last year or so - the dealers and service personnel, at least in this area of the country, are the LAST to know just what is going on with a TSB or recall.

One gent at work related that the service advisor at his dealership told him that if during the recall, they inspected the original TC and it looked good to them, they would simply reinstall the original TC and just reprogram the vehicle! :shock:

….

Bovie wrote:

Well my Dealer just gave me a call. They said that they had just got off the phone with chrysler. He said it took over an hour for chrysler to explain what exactly they were supposed to my car. He said that it will get the TC for sure but they may also have to replace the pump in the transmission….

MrMopar64 wrote:

Howdy y'all,

I spoke to some contacts and got the low down on this F37 Service Campaign.

The TC is indeed new and should have a new P/N. If the one you're getting installed is the same P/N as the new one, something isn't right. The TC has been redesigned with beefier internal components. From an NVH standpoint it's worse, but for service/reliability it's better.

TCM flash is to change the shift points and pressures to keep the clutch packs and TC from slipping as much. In town shifting patterns will be somewhat different, WOT characteristics should be unnoticeably different.

ECM software should not be changing as a result of this. WOT power and torque characteristics are remaining unchanged from OEM (160hp/295ft-lb). If a difference is felt, it'll be due to the TCM software.

That's all I have for now, thought you'd like to know.

Might not sound too bad if true. But from what I can see (see above), People got a lot of "sources", with a lot of stories, and an whole lot of contradictions.

Frankly, I don't know what to make of it yet. I don't think there's anyway to be certain as to what the He** is going on.

Time may tell who's "source" is full of B.S. and who's is not, and what story is a bunch of hot air and what is what.

Perhaps the only way we'll ever be able to tell what's going on is from a portrait that's gets painted by dyno before and after test.

Marlon_JBT wrote:

MrMopar64 wrote:

Howdy y'all,

I spoke to some contacts and got the low down on this F37 Service Campaign.

The TC is indeed new and should have a new P/N. If the one you're getting installed is the same P/N as the new one, something isn't right. The TC has been redesigned with beefier internal components. From an NVH standpoint it's worse, but for service/reliability it's better.

TCM flash is to change the shift points and pressures to keep the clutch packs and TC from slipping as much. In town shifting patterns will be somewhat different, WOT characteristics should be unnoticeably different.

ECM software should not be changing as a result of this. WOT power and torque characteristics are remaining unchanged from OEM (160hp/295ft-lb). If a difference is felt, it'll be due to the TCM software.

That's all I have for now, thought you'd like to know.

This makes me feel much better.

Really?

I wish I could say the same thing, but after reading all this crap.... well I can't say I'm with you yet...

T^2 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:52 pm

kjfishman wrote:

...I called Chrysler today to test the water and asked for a buy back based on what I have isn't what I paid for, as you may guess the answer was no...

That comes as no surprise. If this ever gets litigated, I'd say there might be a fair chance that he will be saying "Yes" after the courts get done with him (via DCX). I’d like to see that if it ever happens…

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:03 pm

If they don't send you a recall notice by registered mail - they can't prove they sent a notice and would be hard pressed to deny warranty based on that. I've never even gotten a LBJ notice by standard mail, let alone registered.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:19 pm

Reworked TC and higher shift points...?...has me worried a bit. That means they probably raised the stall speed of the TC. Raising the stall speed on a torque monster that makes peak torque at 1800 rpm is not the way to go for performance. It "effectively" decreases torque/hp at the rear wheels...ie 0-60 times ect. The upgraded clutch pack...?...to handle the increased slipping that will have to occur. Increased mileage...?...maybe...maybe not. You want a torque type engine to hook up quickly just a bit below peak rpm ( that is why a manual tranny would be nice ). Think about using a manual and letting the clutch slip more than you normally would...easier on drivetrain maybe but not good for TC/TRANNY/TRANNYFLUID because of increased heat.

A lot of variables to look at...would really like to drive a "New and Improved" KJ back to back with an "Old Style" KJ. That would be a novel idea. If this has been the norm for the Euro CRD KJs, I wish we could get some input from those owners...Aussies too!!

Now, if you don't complain about the tranny and bring your KJ in for service, is the dealer required to apply the "37" whether you ask for it or not. Also, if you refuse to have the "37" applied is your warranty going to be affected down the road. Since this is a "Customer"Saticsfaction" type work order, does that make it optional? If this customer, me, is currently satisfied, can I elect out of the "37" for the time being?

dog_party · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:35 pm

I had my KJ in last week and they didn't perform either of the jobs that are supposed to be done on my Jeep (LBJ and "drop my torque"). It probably depends on the dealership, but I am pretty confident that my service bay won't throw this "fix" on my truck without asking me (or me telling them). Other dealerships might behave differently though.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Raising the stall speed on a torque monster that makes peak torque at 1800 rpm is not the way to go for performance. It "effectively" decreases torque/hp at the rear wheels...ie 0-60 times ect. The upgraded clutch pack...?...to handle the increased slipping that will have to occur. Increased mileage...?...not if the above is the case. You want a torque type engine to hook up quickly just a bit below peak rpm ( that is why a manual tranny would be nice ). Think about using a manual and letting the clutch slip more than you normally would...easier on drivetrain maybe but not good for TC/TRANNY/TRANNYFLUID because of increased heat.

EXACTLY - when does raising the stall speed on a diesel engine TC help? The VM R428 makes it peak torque around 1800 rpm - I'm guessing that a stall speed of 1600 rpm max would be in the ball park. If this information is true, it would seem to do little more than guarantee higher rpms and avoid the low rpm lugging that diesels are very good at. It would also keep that tranny pump moving more fluid.

As someone already posted, too many conflicting reports of what this F37 really does - we might be better of calling a diesel tranny shop, give them the torque/hp figures for the VM R428 and ask them what the optimum stall speed would be for that application. I think we have a better chance of getting the correct stall speed information going that route.

T^2 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:41 pm

DarbyWalters wrote:

Reworked TC and higher shift points...?...has me worried a bit. That means they probably raised the stall speed of the TC...

According to CRDME's "source", a higher stall is indeed the order or the day:

CRD4ME wrote:

I spoke with the dealer today regarding the work involved, and parts to be used. The initial work calls for the TC to be replaced with the one used on the 4.7L gas engines in some Grand Cherokees and Durangos. This TC apparently is a bit smaller and therefore has a higher stall speed. They feel the difference in stall speed should offset the reduction in torque programmed in the TCM/ECM.

DarbyWalters wrote:

...Raising the stall speed on a torque monster that makes peak torque at 1800 rpm is not the way to go for performance. It "effectively" decreases torque/hp at the rear wheels...ie 0-60 times ect. The upgraded clutch pack...?...to handle the increased slipping that will have to occur. Increased mileage...?...maybe...maybe not. You want a torque type engine to hook up quickly just a bit below peak rpm ( that is why a manual tranny would be nice ). Think about using a manual and letting the clutch slip more than you normally would...easier on drivetrain maybe but not good for TC/TRANNY/TRANNYFLUID because of increased heat.

A lot of variables to look at...would really like to drive a "New and Improved" KJ back to back with an "Old Style" KJ. That would be a novel idea. If this has been the norm for the Euro CRD KJs, I wish we could get some input from those owners...Aussies too!!

Now, if you don't complain about the tranny and bring your KJ in for service, is the dealer required to apply the "37" whether you ask for it or not...

From what I've read so far - the answer is Yes.

DarbyWalters wrote:

...Also, if you refuse to have the "37" applied is your warranty going to be affected down the road...

From what I've read so far - the answers is if you don't have it done then your warranty will be voided.

DarbyWalters wrote:

...Since this is a "Customer"Saticsfaction" type work order, does that make it optional?...

From what I've read - It may say "Customer Satisfaction Notice" on the Jeep website, but it says "Recall" in DCX system. That being the case, they - the dealers - consider it to be a recall the must be performed. From what I've read - the word from DCX itself says that it's a recall that must be performed.

DarbyWalters wrote:

...If this customer, me, is currently satisfied, can I elect out of the "37" for the time being?

Again from what I've read... The answer is No.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:00 pm

This is just like watching the news. Never the whole story, but plenty of spin. :roll:

Napheus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm **Posts:** 57

Joe Romas wrote:

kb61751 wrote:

Mine was built 5-20-2006 and is not included.

Yours would be one of the very last US spec ones made

My date is also 5-20-2006. I thought there was someone who had a 5-23-2006 date somewhere.

Napheus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm **Posts:** 57

From all these sources, there are just things that don't jive. If they are replacing the TC with a new, improved, beefier part, then why the need to raise the stall speed? As previously stated, torque is being compromised by this attempt at a fix.

Also as stated earlier, I bought this vehicle based on what was advertised. I'm not enamored with the idea that it now must be detuned to stay in one piece. Being a new owner, I don't have the luxury of discerning between flashes. I know I enjoy it as it is now (less the shudder), but I certainly don't want to degrade any further. What are those of us with the last 5 months worth of the run supposed to do? This sucks.

I respectfully disagree with the logic being used about doing the older models first. If this is a problem then all of ours should be done. Who here hasn't been concerned about what damage could/has occurred while you have accumulated 30,000 miles? I've got 7,500 in 3 months, and I'm concerned about potential damage too. Does it make sense to target just about the entire run of CRDs except for the last 5 months worth? If DC is really being run by bean counters, then the newest ones should be targeted as well. The reason being if they get ours fixed before they degrade too much, the odds are DC won't have to spend the cash to replace our transmissions or other parts prematurely. If this is the case then DC has taken incompetence and ineptness to new levels.

MACKJ · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:14 am

[quote="DarbyWalters"]
A lot of variables to look at...would really like to drive a "New and Improved" KJ back to back with an "Old Style" KJ. That would be a novel idea. If this has been the norm for the Euro CRD KJs, I wish we could get some input from those owners...Aussies too!!

I have been watching this thread with great interest. My CRD is on the list for the "Customer Satisfaction Notice"- recall but I doubt whether I will get a letter from DC for at least a couple of months as we always find out way ahead via this forum.
I like to work with facts so I couldn't agree more... we need before and after dyno tests and perhaps some tranny expert's input pre and post "the new and improved TC".
I have not had any major tranny issues, the occasional lumpy shift crawling in traffic, and have not seen any major problems on the Oz forums. I will certainly be resisting de-rating a vehicle to cover up what looks like a poor design TC and, if they are replacing the TC, then it would take very little extra time to replace the suspect gear pump as well. Pigs loaded and ready to fly!
Hopefully we will have some hard evidence soon.

cerich · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:46 am

if dc decides to void warranty work because f37 isn't done all it does is give you a case, what they sent to the cust. is NOT a recall, they can put what they want in their system but by not sending us a recall notice they are also keeping away from having to list a recall with the govt. Even with all otr complaints the highway safty has not even started an investigation according to them.

They speak out of both sides of their mouth on this...

kb61751 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:35 am

I would like to know, just what kind of TC, transmission, etc I have in my CRD, since its not on the recall list for anything or even a tsb. Nothing listed on the Jeep web site. So does that mean they don't care about my Jeep, or does it have the latest (fixes) TC, transmission, etc.. in it already? I am not looking to get it fixed, it runs fine (now), just want to know what I have......

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:06 am

kb61751 wrote:

I would like to know, just what kind of TC, transmission, etc I have in my CRD, since its not on the recall list for anything or even a tsb. Nothing listed on the Jeep web site. So does that mean they don't care about my Jeep, or does it have the latest (fixes) TC, transmission, etc.. in it already? I am not looking to get it fixed, it runs fine (now), just want to know what I have......

I am in the same boat as you, actual physical components are the same. But I am starting to think that perhaps our programming might be different though. Hopefully time will tell.

seferis · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:21 am

I OWN A 2005 CRD RENEGADE BOUGHT ON JULY 2005 FORM GERMANY.
I HAD MY WHOLE TRANNY CHANGED WITH A NEW ONE, IN JULY 2006 (19.000MILES ). - CEL ON AND THEY TOLD ME, IT WAS THE TORQUE CONVERTER AND PUMP FAULT.-
I SAW IN THE JEEP SITE THAT I HAD TO COME WITH THE F37 AND YESTERDAY I MADE AN APPOINTMENT FOR TODAY.

FIRST I WAS TOLD THAT I DID'NT NEED TO CHANGE THE TC, BUT DO ONLY TCM REFLASH. BUT WHILE IN SERVICE THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY ORDERED A NEW TC (IT WILL COME IN ABOUT 10 DAYS), BECAUSE THE RECENTLY CHANGED IS NOT THE NEW TYPE. (THE COMPUTER THROWS IT OUT).

THEY ALSO INFORMED ME THAT THE REDUCTION IN THE TORQUE IS INSTANT ONLY DURING THE SHIFTING OF THE GEARS.

WHEN I DROVE IT BACK AT HOME I FELT THE DIFFERENCE DURING SHIFTING.
THE SHIFTING IS MORE SMOOTH, I DONT FEEL THE CHANGE IN THE GEARS. BUT THERE IS SMALL A DELAY LIKE A SLIDE WHEN I FOLLOW THE KICK DOWN PROCEDURE PUSHING THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL DOWN, AND THEN EVERYTHING OK. I ALSO LOST THE SHUDDER BETWEEN 60-75 MPH. I THINK I M SATISFIED WITH THE NEW BEHAVIOR OF MY JEEP AND ONLY WAIT FOR THE TC REPLACEMENT.

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:39 am

seferis wrote:

I OWN A 2005 CRD RENEGADE BOUGHT ON JULY 2005 FORM GERMANY.
I HAD MY WHOLE TRANNY CHANGED WITH A NEW ONE, IN JULY 2006 (19.000MILES ). - CEL ON AND THEY TOLD ME, IT WAS THE TORQUE CONVERTER AND PUMP FAULT.-
I SAW IN THE JEEP SITE THAT I HAD TO COME WITH THE F37 AND YESTERDAY I MADE AN APPOINTMENT FOR TODAY.

FIRST I WAS TOLD THAT I DID'NT NEED TO CHANGE THE TC, BUT DO ONLY TCM REFLASH. BUT WHILE IN SERVICE THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY ORDERED A NEW TC (IT WILL COME IN ABOUT 10 DAYS), BECAUSE THE RECENTLY CHANGED IS NOT THE NEW TYPE. (THE COMPUTER THROWS IT OUT).

THEY ALSO INFORMED ME THAT THE REDUCTION IN THE TORQUE IS INSTANT ONLY DURING THE SHIFTING OF THE GEARS.

WHEN I DROVE IT BACK AT HOME I FELT THE DIFFERENCE DURING SHIFTING.
THE SHIFTING IS MORE SMOOTH, I DONT FEEL THE CHANGE IN THE GEARS. BUT THERE IS SMALL A DELAY LIKE A SLIDE WHEN I FOLLOW THE KICK DOWN PROCEDURE PUSHING THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL DOWN, AND THEN EVERYTHING OK. I ALSO L.O.S.T. THE SHUDDER BETWEEN 60-75 MPH. I THINK I M SATISFIED WITH THE NEW BEHAVIOR OF MY JEEP AND ONLY WAIT FOR THE TC REPLACEMENT.

Thanks for the update seferis. Its good to know that the overseas models are included in this too. They are still selling them and that means they will have to support them. Gives me SOME hope

I really think I could be okay with reduced torque during shifting, as long as the stall speed is not raised.

KJbob · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:13 am

Goglio704 wrote:

This is just like watching the news. Never the whole story, but plenty of spin. :roll:

I guess the bottom line for me is that mine is going in for F37 on Monday. When I get it back, I'll see how it drives. If it drives like crap (compared to before F37), I'll dump the vehicle at my earliest convenience and probably not buy another Jeep product (probably not a Chysler product either) for a long, long time.

If, on the other hand, it drives OK then I'll think Chrysler was proactive in their approach continue on as a Jeep owner. When my CRD is all used up, I'll consider another Jeep for it's replacement.

I hope DCX understands how important their dealing with F37 is to the future of Chysler diesels in this country (maybe others too). If they screw this up (with their first diesel offering), consumers will look to other manufacturers for their diesel needs. DCX will be getting diesel competition from other manufacturers in the next few years.

I'm glad I have an extended warranty. :roll:

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:33 am

My build date is 01/2006 and the only thing listed on the Jeep site is the LBJ recall. No F37 for me.

Mine has that Delay too and I have had the latest TSB 18-023-06 and teh F31 recall.

alljeep · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:48 am

I dropped my Jeep off this morning and they gave me a print out of the F37 - I'm pretty sure it got this name because it truly is 37 pages long. I have not read it all and will update more later as I can not scan in 37 pages here at work, but at a minumum it states the TQ must be replaced.

It also gives some cheesy test, the noise test, to determine if you get a new pump. If the rattle sound or fault code is present, you get a new pump - otherwise - your stuck with your old crappy one. IF you are lucky and get a pump, then you also get an entire system flush including the transmission cooler for which A/C lines will be removed and A/C system purged - because - you also get a new integral A/C condenser/Transmission Oil Cooler, along with a new main sump filter and oir return filter.

MAJOR DIFFERENCE HERE ON WHAT YOU GET BASED ON SOME STUPID "CAN YOU HEAR A RATTLE SOUND" WHILE STANDING OUTSIDE THE JEEP - TEST.

Make no mistake, this recall will GUT my CRD. Transmission and transfer case will be pulled and put on a bench per the F37. If the pump is replaced, off comes the front grill, radiator support, and out comes the cooler and A/C condensor.

It also states to try to accomodate the customer and give them a loaner car - but since my dealership had not even read the F37, just printed it for me, no one gave me a car.

Oh yeah, they never really had the parts in stock, they lied. As I suspected - they are recall specific and have to be ordered, they will be in tomorrow afternoon for me.

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:58 am

I dont really know how recalls work, so I have to ask. If they recall a part, and then it breaks again, is it forever covered or are you just up a creek after that point.

New Customer Satisfaction Recall - F37

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