CV Angles

fdezone · **Posted:** Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:56 pm

I know we're always trying to address spring/ball joint contact, but what about the CV angles. Would it be feasible to maybe measure the CV angles to help determine maximum lift heights? Disregard if the your rig is pre-lowered, has spacers or replacement springs, is advertised as a 2", 2.5" or 3.0" lift, etc. I believe actual lift results or standard height measurements might be deceiving. In essence, at the present time, these are our two limiting factors, ball joint angle/spring contact and CV angles? Does that sound about right?

I wonder what types of data we'd get using a simple angle finder to see what types of angles different setups are creating. And possibly in the long run identifying what is and what is not acceptable. Does that make any sense? I mean CV angles can be too extreme, but what's extreme? What's that magic angle that if exceeded will reak havoc? What other factors play a role?

Maybe we could create a post install systems check of sorts to help identify potential problem areas. Check for suspension clearance issues while compressed/extended, take angle measurements, etc. Both with and without the sway bar if applicable. Maybe make it a sticky to try and be more proactive. There seems to be a lot of disparity among the Libbys.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:56 pm

Cv angles would be a good way to measure lift I guess. Most people do not have an angle finder though.. I dont..

When the Franken lift is new, it basically MAXES out the front suspension. Thats why everyone freaks out and takes the thing off and tries to give it back to AllJ. They never take it off road and flex it to break it in..

fdezone · **Posted:** Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:43 pm

Jeepjeepster wrote:

They never take it off road and flex it to break it in..

Well, what do you consider flexing it or breaking it in? For some, offroading might just be going mudd'n or simply throwing it in 4WD and going down some bumpy fire road. For others it might just be driving in snow. Everyone's different. Some folks might not disconnect the swaybar or cycle the suspension as hard. Some might go offroading every other weekend while others might only go quarterly. What's expected during this "break-in" period?

Time installed or mileage accrued might provide a more consistent basis for this "break-in" period.

Spike6901 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:59 am

Personally, due to wheelin' experience in the KJ with my 2.5" lift, I would rather be more like 2" of lift and have more droop up front or go with some other type of full 4" kit that dosen't seem to exhist yet. My CV angles are just fine but there is hardly any downard travel and a ton of upward so I have toped it out about 100 times.

Jeepnut · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:29 am

you can pick up an angle finder at a local tool place like harbor frieght or other cheap tool place for $10 or less and they also work great when switching to a CV drive shaft for setting pinion angles, front axle pads for spring overs or a base starting point when doing a coil over so that you get the correct steering geometry up front.

detroit_doc · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:52 am

Spike6901 wrote:

Personally, due to wheelin' experience in the KJ with my 2.5" lift, I would rather be more like 2" of lift and have more droop up front or go with some other type of full 4" kit that dosen't seem to exhist yet. My CV angles are just fine but there is hardly any downard travel and a ton of upward so I have toped it out about 100 times.

Actually I think this is really dangerous on the road. My Frankelift had almost zero suspension sag. This made it behave really poorly on-road. The point of a suspension is to allow the wheels to follow surface. When you're driving at 60 MPH and hit some rough pavement without any droop left in the suspension the tires can actually lose contact with the road. I only had my Frankenlift on for a short period of time, but I had a couple of squirrelly moments over the pot-holed pavement here in Michigan.

I don't want to get into the engineering argument again, but I think any real suspension engineer would be amazed by a suspension that was designed with no sag.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:29 am

Do the longer upper arms change the geometry enough to allow for more downward travel? If not, it sounds like the parts to achieve 2.5" of lift and maintain downward travel simply don't exist yet. Seems to me the upper and lower arms would need to be longer. Sounds nice - and expensive. Weird how often they go together isn't it. :wink:

4wdParakeet · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:31 am

What are you talking about no downward travel. Have you guys not seen the pics of Frankenlifted rigs fronts flexed out.

Parakeet

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:51 am

I have seen some pretty good flex pics, but I have also heard more than one owner of the Frankenlift say that the longer upper arms are a must. Personally, I'm just gathering info for mods that are probably at least a year off.

Universeman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:01 pm

I tried installing an OTT lift on my CRD but ran into issues with the bottom of the strut comming into contact with the CV on the left side (I beleive this is a CRD only issue, could someone post a shot similar to this one of the clearence between the strut and CV at full drop from a gas Liberty for compairison?)

so to me my angles don't appear that severe but I'm pushing the limit as far as contact with my upper ball joint and my CV boot but I still have plenty of down travel, I would venture a guess that I have slightly more up travel then down travel but it seams to be plenty of travel both ways.

fdezone · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:56 pm

Geez Universeman, what do you got in there, like 5 washers? And can you see how having those CV angles and boots bunched up might cause some friction leading to torn boots, etc?

corwyyn · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:02 pm

Universeman wrote:

could someone post a shot similar to this one of the clearence between the strut and CV at full drop from a gas Liberty for compairison?)

Here ya go. This is my Daystar 2.5" lift with no clevis, still plenty of room at full droop.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:03 pm

fdezone wrote:

Geez Universeman, what do you got in there, like 5 washers?

Haha. I think thats why your clevis is hitting your cv boot.

ohh, and fdezone, I consider this flexing:

fdezone · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:08 pm

Yeah, I like the Aussie. He thinks out of the box and I really respect him for doing his own thing. He makes his mods and tests 'em. His Libby works!

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:22 pm

The conduit washers are not helping Universeman's situation in that pic, but if you look closer you'll see that the shaft is shorter. It's a CRD thing - you wouldn't understand. :wink:

Spike6901 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:19 pm

Yes, upper control arms would help BUT it dosen't help when your shocks top out. I just don't understand why Rusty's front shocks are only slightly longer than the stock ones. By slightly I mean very slightly. It they were an inch longer, it would make a big difference.

Universeman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:31 pm

corwyyn wrote:

Universeman wrote:

could someone post a shot similar to this one of the clearence between the strut and CV at full drop from a gas Liberty for compairison?)

Here ya go. This is my Daystar 2.5" lift with no clevis, still plenty of room at full droop.

I guess I dident mention its the left side I have issues with, the right side has the same ammount of clearence on the CRD

Universeman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:21 pm

fdezone wrote:

Geez Universeman, what do you got in there, like 5 washers? And can you see how having those CV angles and boots bunched up might cause some friction leading to torn boots, etc?

Here's the rub, I still want more lift in the front, I just put in a set of OME HDs in the rear and now the front looks low and I was thinking of sticking in a Rusty's upper strut spacer for another .5” of lift. Now correct me if I'm wrong but didn’t this thread start with the question as to what’s too extreme and I seam to be pushing that envelope but DC threw us CRD guys a curve ball with the wacked out front diff/CV thing, I understand that the whole diff is .5" lower but the left CV is also clearly shorter. I also wanted to point out that I'm running extended bump-stops so I'm not running the risk of bottoming out my strut either, although I asked all-Js about that and was told that the daystar spacer they use in the CRD frankenlift compresses the spring so much that the spring itself becomes the bump stop which would explain the lack of down travel in a frankenlifted Liberty.

I did try to install the terraflex 2” budget boost kit which was an OTT lift and it took me a lot of trial and error to figure out what was going on and why it wouldn’t fit and I finnaly figured out that there is a lot less clearance between the bottom of the strut and the CV boot as well as the shaft being shorter on the CRD and if it looks close with my crazy 5 nut clevis lift imagine that strut an 1 3/4" further down, that’s how it was with that ott spacer on top of it.

NU ARTY BOY · **Posted:** Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:46 pm

Jeepjeepster wrote:

...When the Franken lift is new, it basically MAXES out the front suspension. Thats why everyone freaks out and takes the thing off and tries to give it back to AllJ. They never take it off road and flex it to break it in..

Bro, I have almost 2K miles on my Frankenlift and I've pounded the snot out of the front - all in trying to get the front springs to settle. Its not happening. Right now my KJ looks like a Baja 1000 truck. And I now have 2 blown CV boots that may or not be repairable.

Its gotten to the point that I might just put the OE stuff back on, sell the KJ, and wait for a new Unlimited Rubicon. Total frustration.....

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:34 pm

NU ARTY BOY wrote:

Jeepjeepster wrote:

...When the Franken lift is new, it basically MAXES out the front suspension. Thats why everyone freaks out and takes the thing off and tries to give it back to AllJ. They never take it off road and flex it to break it in..

Bro, I have almost 2K miles on my Frankenlift and I've pounded the snot out of the front - all in trying to get the front springs to settle. Its not happening. Right now my KJ looks like a Baja 1000 truck. And I now have 2 blown CV boots that may or not be repairable.

Its gotten to the point that I might just put the OE stuff back on, sell the KJ, and wait for a new Unlimited Rubicon. Total frustration.....

Do you have HD springs or Medium front springs?

CV Angles

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