I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't see how a failure of one unit can cause a failure to the other....excepting the possibility of debris contamination.

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2006 Libery Sport CRD, Lt Kakhi, nicely equipped
*****GDE Hot Tune at 38,879 miles
*****Stock TC.....for the time being!!

The debris is the key because of the circulatory nature of the system. The pump (a bolt in part of the trans) can cause failure of the lockup clutch in the TC. That debris can cause the TC to start gutting itself and then all that debris spreads out into the transmission as a whole. The point being it is a loop which will feed back on itself once a problem starts. Very hard to determine which is the chicken and which is the egg sometimes in a situation like that.

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

Complicating this problem is the filter on the cooler return line. Plug the cooler or the filter with cuttings and you oil starve the transmission. This is just like the engine, a sound component hooked to ancillary support systems that cause mechanical failures.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Does anyone know where the fluid goes after it leaves the return line spin-on filter? Does it perform other functions or does it drop back into the pan? If it drops back into the pan it would seem we could remove the spin-on filter.

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My Jeep Liberty page

ORM, air filter mod, and less restrictive exhaust has increased my 'everyday' driving 3 mpg.

Yes, it is pumped out to the external line which feeds the transmission cooler, from there it returns to the sump bay on the transmission.

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

Unfortunately that won't work because the filter has a check-valve function that keeps the fluid in the torque converter when the engine is off.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Whenever I hear people complain about the crd I think of the show" The Dog Whisperer" Yeah the dogs aren't perfect but look at the owners! The guy usually ends up adjusting the owners more than the dog. The only thing that disappoints me is the trans/torque converter problems. Every other problem I've had was not exactly a surprise. If you did your homework before buying you would know this.

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2005 sport crd-SOLD No regrets

Actually, I did my homework and trans problems on a DC product are no surprise at all. In fact, I went with an 05 to get the longer warranty on the trans. Little did I know that in order to keep warranty coverage on the trans, I would have to let them detune the package to protect the trans. Total B.S.

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

Our family drove a 300SD for several years. We also drove a 240D and a 6.2 Suburban 4x4 for several years. I operated these on a daily basis, so I know a tiny bit about operating a diesel. Granted, not as much as some of you. Funny, I never had problems with those, except when taking the 300SD to the MB dealer for work-- which they often screwed up. An independent shop solved that.

So which of these problems, which we have complained the most about-- are operator error as opposed to bad engineering/quality control?:

-- the whole F37 thread.
-- oil was leaking and "I just had to get a new rear main" at 15,000 miles.
-- "oh my engine just L.O.S.T. oil pressure at 5,000 miles on the engine"
-- have to get a new motor at 8,000 miles, engine came apart.
--air in the fuel line constantly on brand new vehicles.
--EGR valves failing, flow control failing
--Clean the MAF sensor every 5000-6000 miles (but not mentioned in the maintenance manual).
--Engine going to limp mode and having to be restarted.
--Factory can't put the right tranny filters in
--Ball joints can separate at 20,000 miles of use while going down the highway and all have to be recalled

These CRD's are new. The old 240, 300 or Suburban never once had to be reprimed because air was in the fuel line-- despite being 10 and 20 years old. The 240 never threw a code and had over 300,000 miles on it when it was put down the road in good shape. We did not have to clean a MAF sensor every oil change on any of these vehicles. While all of these were gutless off the line-- they never went into limp mode when you pushed the go pedal. These vehicles only needed regular maintenance, which was slightly more involved than with gassers, but which was not unexpected-- and it never involved replacing defective OEM parts.

So seriously, educate us poor fools as to what operator error is causing all this, so that we may avoid it in the future. It is sad to me that “operator error” is used as some kind of insult to anyone reporting problems, but never is any proof of what the “operator error” actually is provided. I don't think that having to spend $700+ dollars on the torque converter alone (probably $2000+ on the whole tranny) on fixing DC's F37 mistake puts anyone in a good mood to listen about how this things problems are the result of operator error.

Well said.

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

Owner's hindsight is 20/20. When I purchased mine at the beginning of September 2005 there were EGR & glowplug failure reported with a reflash fix that appeared to be working. The oil in the CAC issue appeared to be isolated the closed crankcase vent (thus managable) and the torque converter issues hadn't started. It took about 4 months of ownership experience for me to realize this product was in trouble. I could not have imagined pouring oil out of CAC hoses or dealing with clogged sensors, then be told this is "normal" and I would have to live with this performance. Then my transmission issues started with the endless list of TSB's eventually leading to a recall. Had I know this, I would have traded my old truck for a new Silverado and been done with it.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Your answers:

As I posted trans problems were a dissapointment. That covers f37 and related trans/torque converter/derate issues.

Ball joints will always be an issue on this vehicle. It's the design, not the ball joint that is bad. Since they have been made this way since 2002 I'll assume you knew about it.

Oil pick up falling off and a broken valve keeper is an assembly problem and covered under warranty. 2 catastraphic failures out of 11,000+ engines doesn't signal the end of the world for me.

Egr and flow control failures are a documented problem with diesel engines. They were a problem then and they are a problem now. Please name me an egr equipped diesel that doesn't have egr problems. (Hint- you can't) I'll also assume you knew this and still bought the crd.

Cleaning the maf every 5000-6000 miles??? Don't know where you got that one. I assume you meant the map/iat sensor. Some report it very dirty and some not. Some report drivability improvments after cleaning, some not. More of a fuel quality issue I suspect. If it doesn't log a code it's not really a problem.

Air in the fuel line. I don't have this problem and I suspect it is not a problem. If you really had an air leak in your fuel system it would show up and stay until fixed. The shudder is not a fuel system problem I feel. I had the shudder and it was fixed with a new ecm.

Engine going into limp mode is a programming issue. It's actually meant to protect the drivetrain from the retards out there.
I haven't experienced this so I cannot comment. Have you??

The new rear main seal was the tech's fault as he damaged it while r&r ing the trans. Read the post. I won't tell you how many rear main seals I put in humves. Give them time, they will leak.

The reason your 240 never threw a code was because it didn't have the technology to do so. You can have your 20 year old diesel's. They sucked in every way except economy and reliability( except the 6.2) If you think the 6.2/6.5 was a great diesel engine you really do know nothing about diesel engines. It was one of the worst diesel engines made and had some really good inj pump problems( gm recalled them because of so many low milage failures) and are really famous for blowing head gaskets and cracking the heads. Not to mention the glow plugs and their cold starting ability.

In summary, things change and diesel's have changed. Not all for the good either. If you love your old diesels so much go buy one. It's the only way you will be happy. If you want to drive a crd be ready to hop on the learning curve like the rest of us. Quit complaining and start fixing. The crd was not meant for everyone, especially people who think modern diesels are those same dirty,slow,non cold starting but reliable diesels of the past. This was an experiment by d/c and I knew that. I still bought one and I like it. I've had problems and some have not been fixed. I still like my crd. It is a one-of-a-kind vehicle with one-of-a-kind issues. Add lack of dealer diesel knowledge, which was just as bad 20 years ago you said, and you end up where we are now. I'm not suprised by this. If you did your homework you wouldn't be either.

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2005 sport crd-SOLD No regrets

Really? Is that a fact? Then why do TC failures occur without setting a code? If a TC fails without a code, is it not really a problem? If I follow your logic, my TC grenading isn't really a problem, because it never set a code before it failed. If your statement is limited to MAP sensors, it still fails any rational reasoning. According to one of my FSM's, the MAP sensor reading has more affect on engine performance than any other single input sensor. Yet clearly, they can be coated with soot, provide inaccurate temperature readings and degrade performance, yet not set a code. By your definition, that's not really a problem.

LOL

Are you by chance a Chrysler 5 Star Service Advisor?

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

I am sure that you know much more about diesels than this software engineer, and I did not post solely as a response to yours, and did not mean it to sound that way. What I am saying is that for the last year-- whenever someone reports a problem-- it is always perceived by many to be some “operator error” until proven otherwise. This is no longer helpful. It is obvious to everyone that this thing has quality control and cheapskate engineering issues. It does not seem appropriate to blame that on the operator. It really starts to get annoying when you listen to this while you are fixing various problems out of pocket on a vehicle still in warranty and yet something else starts acting up and you need help.

As for limp mode, several different people on this site have reported that the engine goes into limp mode while driving-- having to be restarted to regain power. I have not experienced this. However, I have had the traction control cut the power at an inopportune moment while making a U-turn, when a tire let loose. Many thought something like this was the cause and wrote this up to operator error as well-- some somewhat derogatively. But MrMopar even reported that this engine has gone into limp mode outside of the vehicle on a test bench and indicates the cause here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... ht=#142068 . This was and is a serious issue that has a fix, and was not an operator error, as it was perceived. It could have or may yet cause someone to get sideswiped or rear ended, regardless-- it has nothing to do with retards being heavy on the throttle. My point by replying to this is that we need to dispose of the ad homoniem “retard”/ “operator error” remarks.

The rest of your responses largely point to the source of the problem-- quality control problems or engineering issues-- none of them proven to be operator errors. It should not be construed as operator error that one expects a new vehicle to work. It also should not be construed that diesel customers don't want reliable and economical, but that they would rather be made into beta testers-- because the technology is “cool”. One of the main points of a diesel is that it is supposed to be more efficient and reliable. If the new technology is not that-- than what good is it? I can get fast with a gasser. With repairs and downtime... this thing has shown to be neither reliable or cost efficient. So it gets 26 mpg? Just how can we cost justify its maintenance and downtime for the repairs? If the repairs don't stop-- we logically cannot, but because we have an emotional attachment to the vehicle-- we try to very hard. I wonder if this is leading everyone into acting in some kind of jihad against anyone who points out serious issues with our sacred cow. It is almost like the LOST CRD forum is some kind of cult or Amway or something. If yours works great... Mine mainly works and I am happy it has fewer problems that many on this site, but I don't doubt that other folk are having issues that are not their fault.

I want the current issues fixed... but at some point I can't leak any more money into the thing. At some point it has to become reliable. So how much cash do I have to depart with before that happens? I do not feel good about spending this cash for something I already paid for-- something that should work... something I bought a possibly worthless extended warranty for. But I suppose I will.. as I am hoplessly succored into the evil diesel Jeep cult now. But I don't blame anyone for being P.O.

By the way-- I never said the 6.2 was a great engine-- but I had less trouble with its power-train than with this thing. Which was kinda my point. It was slow as a dog and the glow plugs took forever, but it ran fine and I did not have to tear apart the powertrain to rework the tranny or the torque converter. I would not have bought one new as gutless and mediocore as it was-- it was bought 10 years old at an auction for a song. We got our money out of it.

You mean two catastrophic failures reported by members on this board? All CRD owners don't post here. Two major failures in the limited population here is significant.

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Thanks,
Ken Jennings
2006 KJ Limited 4x4 CRD, Option Pkg G, Lt. Khaki, Built 1 Feb 2006
Tow Package for myself, EVIC TPM
Side Curtain Airbags for my daughter
http://www.kenjennings.cc/crd/dieselexp.html

Let me try this again,

All modern diesels have so much electronic crap added to them to make them more quite,efficient,easier to start,cleaner,and have gas engine hp that you will have problems. Not just stupid little stuff the average Joe can fix in his garage. The crd has all of these new age diesel good benefits with all of the problems too. Welcome to the EPA side of diesel engines. VW has their issues also. GET USED TO IT OR SELL IT. It will take some time to sort the crd out. Maybe years. Maybe it really is a piece of junk. Who really knows?? I plan on being there at the end to find out and I was prepared for this.(except for the trans issues, now that pisses me off!) Owning a crd is like being part of a cult. It's a diesel thing and most people don't understand. Compounding the matter is previous diesel owners who owned whatever 20 year old diesel they had and expect to get all the rewards of new diesel tech without any problems. NOT GONNA HAPPEN AND IS GONE FOR GOOD 3/4 of the posts are people complaining how bad they got it and how the crd is just junk. I'm tired of it and you accomplish nothing. Now you know why diesels will never catch on in the usa. If I was a car manufacturer and read this website and all the whining that goes on I would never bring a diesel to the market. Maybe we should have a seperate whining section just so everyone can vent together all on the same page. I come here for information and ideas. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

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2005 sport crd-SOLD No regrets

T/C failure is a mechanical failure hence no code. I would've figured you known that. Gee my conn rod broke and I have no code... I have no time for smart asses.

If your not getting a map code the sensor is operating in range. Could it be more efficient if I cleaned it every tank full?? Yes, but not enough for me to lose sleep over. It's your time, do what you want with it.

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2005 sport crd-SOLD No regrets

Onthehunt, I couldn't agree with you more on the topic of older generation of Diesels. There is no comparison as they are apples and oranges but I did like thier simplicity and no matter how hard you drove it, they just kept going. I love the TDI and new generation of diesel for the record.

But... you sound like a dealer when you state if there's no code, no problem, your demonstrating your knowledge loud and clear. This is funny, real funny, you did say the exact same thing they said and when I countered it, they said "drive it, till it's KAPUT, then we'll know whats wrong", is this for real or what, LOL...The chrysler standard for the OBD software is on SPEC, and that means bare minimun to comply with this standard. I have my own version of VAG-COM for my VW's and it's comprehensive, the mg's, duty cycle and EGR can be turned on or off how I see fit but havn't found one yet that will interface with the jeep and do any good, matter of fact do anything. . I have de-sludged my fair share of intakes over the years and know a thing or two on how this type of engine and systems should function. Its clear the dealers hate this engine and I don't blame them, just look at the lack of training and the level of software and tools they have to work with. Some of us here went into this knowing there would be bugs, I've owned VW's for years, that has to say a lot for my tolerance. I could always fix them and perform timing belt changes and whatever they needed. This particular vehicle has me worried and I'm not happy and it will be for sale.
On the lighter side, if you keep up with the insults, this forum will eat you up and spit you out...their a tough crowd.....Peace

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2006 Touareg, current
2006 CRD Ltd, current (it's days are numbered...)
2005 Passat 2.0TDI, current
2000 Golf TDI
1991 Jetta Turbo Diesel (great car)
1986 Golf Diesel
1982 Westfalia Diesel
1979 Rabbit Diesel

I guess you'll just have to learn to ignore yourself then.

What did you expect for a response when you babble incoherently, get called on it and then respond with more of the same nonsense? Until engine management systems have enough sensors to adequately cover every failure situation, no good mechanic would say, "if it doesn't set a code its not really a problem." Until then, you appear to be just another mechanic who uses fault codes (or lack thereof) as a substitute for good troubleshooting skills. Good grief. If your posts tell the story of how you troubleshoot diesel fault codes, it speaks volumes as to the state of the industry. Fortunately, not all mechanics posses the illogic you appear to.

As to solutions, or as you so eloquently put it, "Fix it or sell it", quite a few here contribute to not only fixing the CRD shortcomings, almost all at their own expense, but also sharing that information freely. I don't see you contributing much except to install an Ebay Predator module, then lecturing others on how bad it is to give DC a reason to void warranties by using out of spec biofuel. That's really helpful. I think I see a trend here.

While you're whining about people getting upset with the CRD issues, others are actively working on solutions, solutions they shouldn't have to even think about. That doesn't mean they like what DC did with their handling of the drive-line issue or the other issues. Until you contribute a useful solution, don't bother CRD owners (with real issues) on your ideas of how to deal with them.

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

Lets keep in mind 99% of people that bought the CRD didnt buy it for a auto improvement project, myself included. We bought it to have a fully functioning reliable vehicle. Not everyone wants to tear their diesel engine apart every 5000 miles just to keep it running. I paid $29,000 to have reliable vehicle, not one that sits in the shop for 80 days nor to have a hobby. I have plenty of other hobbies and redesigning diesel engines isnt one of them.

For anyone that thinks buying a subpar engineered POS is acceptable is living on a different planet. I do not have a problem doing general maintenance on my CRD, but I'll be damned if I am going to spend my own money re-engineering a $30,000 vehicle. That is completely unacceptable and gross incompetence on DCXs part.

Never will I, nor 99% of people that bought a CRD spend $3000 to buy a custom TC to fix they TC issue. You have to be kidding me. I think I speak for the general population of CRD owners that think re-engineering this vehicle is not our responsibility. Not to mention I shouldnt have to spend my time or money draining CACS, installing Provents, cleaning MAPs, MAFs or whatever else. These issues need to be fixed by DCX. I just want a vehicle that runs the way its suppose to and doesnt spend 3 months in the shop.