Who Wants A Better Fuel Filter Thats Cheaper To Replace?

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

I am not really offended old navy (but be careful when you start your car)

My logic was that my neighbor did have an easy way to drain any water out of the system. I never saw any water come out, but I don't think I saw him do it more than once, or twice. I also believe that he said "on occasion" he would get water out via the drain.
My point is that if I am going to be trading a filter with water ID technology for one without I would only make the trade if there was an easy way for me to check via the thumb knob as I would have no way of knowing (without the water in fuel system light) if there was water UNTIL the situation got bad enough to effect engine performance.

If you can't figure the logic in that, then next time I will use a crayon font for you and type smaller words

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

vtdog wrote:

I am not really offended old navy (but be careful when you start your car)

My logic was that my neighbor did have an easy way to drain any water out of the system. I never saw any water come out, but I don' think I saw him do it more than once, or twice. I also believe that he said "on occasion" he would get water out via the drain.
My point is that if I am going to be trading a filter with water ID technology for one without I would only make the trade if there was an easy way for me to check via the thumb knob as I would have no way of knowing (without the water in fuel system light) if therw was water UNTIL the situation got bad enough to effect engine performance.

If you can't figure the logic in that, then next time I will use a crayon font for you and tytoe smaller words

The problem with the water sensor is that its has to have a lot of water in it to work. By that time its going to be to late anyway. And if you do take on a load of water you will have it through everything before you can do anything about it anyway.

Greg

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:40 pm

Does this CAT filter have a heater? IIRC this is important with the common rail system.

Would personally be interested in a replacement filter system as long as it has the features of the factory system (primer pump, heater, WIF, and whatever other function the last wiring harness supports) but not until the warranty has expired. If it's a matter of saving a few bucks on filters, it's not worth it as aftermarket replacement filters should soon be available. If it's for a mechanical reliability improvement over the leaky factory system, would be worth the investment.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:09 am

Is this a whole new filter head or just a filter?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

RFCRD wrote:

Does this CAT filter have a heater? IIRC this is important with the common rail system.

Would personally be interested in a replacement filter system as long as it has the features of the factory system (primer pump, heater, WIF, and whatever other function the last wiring harness supports) but not until the warranty has expired. If it's a matter of saving a few bucks on filters, it's not worth it as aftermarket replacement filters should soon be available. If it's for a mechanical reliability improvement over the leaky factory system, would be worth the investment.

Here is a link to a video of a CAT filter replacement of a stock TDI fuel filter. This one is not electrically heated and it doesn't have a primer pump, but it does show the CAT filter in some detail. Not for slow dialup links. There are probably more models than this one.

http://www.cincitdi.com/richc/cat2filter.html

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:11 am

The WIF light is triggered when water bridges the gap between the two contacts on the probe. No water = no light. So if the probe is hanging out in open air, unless you douche it down when washing the Jeep (or in Oldnavy's case, when his better half washes the Jeep :wink:

), the light will never trip. If you're really paranoid, once it's removed from the filter, give it a good coating of silicone dielectric grease and tystrap a plastic bag over it.

From the sound of it, we're talking about the filter CARTRIDGE, not the entire assy - using a CAT filter element with the existing filter head - so you'll still have the priming pump, fuel temp sensor, and fuel heater.

And if you're really concerned about knowing when you have water in the fuel, why not just get something like a Racor 10 micron prefilter/water sep unit, with a clear bowl on the bottom so you can simply SEE when it's accumulating water and drain it out. Added benefit would be the Racor would catch the big chunks and make either the factory or the CAT filter element last that much longer. And you can put the prefilter in a spot where it's a lot easier to change than the factory setup.

I'm still in for one of the CAT filters. I'd rather have one of those as my last line of defense than that expensive OEM POS.

Boilermaker · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:12 am

oldnavy wrote:

Me I would like to get rid of the OEM filter and the water sensor. Once the sensor is gone it would be a lot easier to change the filter topside, as that is only difficult thing about changing the filter is the removing and reinstalling the sensor.

I haven't looked under the bonnet (read hood in US) of an 05 CRD but in my case I just remove the wiring plug to the WIF sensor, remove the inlet and outlet hoses, two bolts holding the filter/separator assembly to the firewall, lift it out and change the element on the bench. All done topside. BTW never found water. FWIW in the old days I remember we had to park (overnight) our diesel trucks with a full tank to reduce condensation.
Good discussion

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

We are talking filter replacement only. The filter head has all the goodys and their is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Their are many options ans we will be looking at them. OldNavys CRD is the test vehicle and we will be looking at this weekend.

Greg

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:59 am

For what it is worth, below is a picture of a Cat filter after about 15,000 miles of LSD Fuel in wife's '02 Jetta. The fuel was mostly B2 diesel with some ocassional regular diesel. As can be seen it is just about 1/3 used up, so it should easy make 30,000 miles or more.

With an adapter made to use the Cat filter, it should be easy to just unscrew the filter and bring it out topside without removing all the fuel hoses and the mount from the firewall since there is no WIF gizmo to unplug and mess with. What you think?

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:21 am

You can get the factory filter from wholesalemopar for about $27. I am not trying to deter any work on a different filter, but I will probably not make any changes of this sort to mine. The cost savings is minimal and I don't like loosing my WIF sensor and factory WS capability.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

no-blue-screen wrote:

You can get the factory filter from wholesalemopar for about $27. I am not trying to deter any work on a different filter, but I will probably not make any changes of this sort to mine. The cost savings is minimal and I don't like loosing my WIF sensor and factory WS capability.

Good thing about the good old US of A you have that right to choose what you want for what ever reason you want. You might get it for $27 but what about shipping? With the Cat you more than likely have a dealer close by.

Greg

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:54 am

I have a WIX fuel filter setup that I used to run on another vehicle. No water detection capability. After it was first installed I was pretty serious about draining it, but lost the habit when I repeatedly didn't find any water. After about a year+ of not checking it, the filter sprang a leak in the bottom where it had rusted through - from a little bit of water of course. :roll:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:24 am

Goglio704 wrote:

I have a WIX fuel filter setup that I used to run on another vehicle. No water detection capability. After it was first installed I was pretty serious about draining it, but L.O.S.T. the habit when I repeatedly didn't find any water. After about a year+ of not checking it, the filter sprang a leak in the bottom where it had rusted through - from a little bit of water of course. :roll:

Your little bit of water most likely was from condensation build up in the filter and fuel tank over time and that just replacing a filter or draining would have prevent the problem.

It is funny how just a few drops of water mixed with the crossive effect of diesel, gas, or other petro fuels can eat through metal fuel tanks. That one reason why mfg's have gone to plastic for fuel containers, fuel tanks on cars and plastic lined large fuel tanks.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:27 am

LanduytG wrote:

no-blue-screen wrote:

You can get the factory filter from wholesalemopar for about $27. I am not trying to deter any work on a different filter, but I will probably not make any changes of this sort to mine. The cost savings is minimal and I don't like loosing my WIF sensor and factory WS capability.

Good thing about the good old US of A you have that right to choose what you want for what ever reason you want. You might get it for $27 but what about shipping? With the Cat you more than likely have a dealer close by.

Greg

Yeah, and I have to pay 5% sales tax locally. IMO I am loosing more than I am gaining by doing away with the factory filter. The WS is there for a reason....just because some don't have water in there every time they check isn't a reason to do away with it all together. What will it cost to add an after-market water seperation system?

Has anyone here ever had water get into their fuel system? Major wear and damage will result. Is this free to fix? No, it will be expensive. Like I said before...the water separation is there from the factory FOR A REASON. I just don't see how it makes sense to do away with the factory filter and then have to add pre-filtration and water separation to the whole system.

What is really needed is an after-market filter that is a drop-in (or spin-on in this case) replacement for the OEM filter.

If I am wrong please tell me so...but please provide factual data as to why.

What data is available to support the claim that the OEM filtration is inadequate?

Not trying to turn up the flames, but if the OEM filtration is not adequate then let's put that data out here so that everyone can make an informed decision.

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

First off, there is no "water separator" in our fuel filters, period. The only thing that exists is a drain at the bottom of our filters, which can be used to check and/or drain settled water. There is no magic mechanism or filter media inside a 30 dollar filter that can separate the water molecules from the rest of the fuel and deposit them neatly in the drainage area. Water accumulates at the bottom because it settles there. There is barely ANY flow through the filter, so, heavier objects settle to the bottom. (also why ON's filter was only 1/3 dirty, the visible crap just settled toward the bottom)

As many people have attested and I too can share their experience, proper fuel almost guarantees you will never have water settling inside your fuel filter. Secondly, as mentioned, if your fuel is that contaminated, a fuel filter isn't going to save your engine.

Now, back to the magical water separator. The CAT filter will do EXACTLY the same thing as the OEM filter: allow water to settle at the bottom. You will loose the ability to drain the filter. However, fromm y viewpoint, draining the filter of non-existant water is pretty much futile. At point where there might be less than a drop of water could be at 40,000 miles, at which point, I'm assuming, we'd be changing our filters anyway...so, for me, the drain at the bottom (or the misnomer "water separator") is useless.

On the other hand, the CAT is much cheaper than the VW OEM alternative, and when I switched to it, was 12 bucks a pop. Not as cheap anymore, clearly, but still better than a $30+ fuel filter from VW. I'm not entirely sure the extra filtration is necessary, but it definitely isn't going to hurt anything.

Its a great filter, for sure, CAT makes the best. Personal opinion wether it will make any difference, but don't kid yourself that the CAT filter is missing a "feature" that the OEM has.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:49 am

cevans wrote:

First off, there is no "water separator" in our fuel filters, period. The only thing that exists is a drain at the bottom of our filters, which can be used to check and/or drain settled water. There is no magic mechanism or filter media inside a 30 dollar filter that can separate the water molecules from the rest of the fuel and deposit them neatly in the drainage area. Water accumulates at the bottom because it settles there. There is barely ANY flow through the filter, so, heavier objects settle to the bottom. (also why ON's filter was only 1/3 dirty, the visible crap just settled toward the bottom)

As many people have attested and I too can share their experience, proper fuel almost guarantees you will never have water settling inside your fuel filter. Secondly, as mentioned, if your fuel is that contaminated, a fuel filter isn't going to save your engine.

Now, back to the magical water separator. The CAT filter will do EXACTLY the same thing as the OEM filter: allow water to settle at the bottom. You will loose the ability to drain the filter. However, fromm y viewpoint, draining the filter of non-existant water is pretty much futile. At point where there might be less than a drop of water could be at 40,000 miles, at which point, I'm assuming, we'd be changing our filters anyway...so, for me, the drain at the bottom (or the misnomer "water separator") is useless.

On the other hand, the CAT is much cheaper than the VW OEM alternative, and when I switched to it, was 12 bucks a pop. Not as cheap anymore, clearly, but still better than a $30+ fuel filter from VW. I'm not entirely sure the extra filtration is necessary, but it definitely isn't going to hurt anything.

Its a great filter, for sure, CAT makes the best. Personal opinion wether it will make any difference, but don't kid yourself that the CAT filter is missing a "feature" that the OEM has.

But it is missing a "feature"..it doesn't have an attachment for the WIF light. Fuel source with Diesel has always been a little bit of an issue. More so in remote areas...but if the light comes on, then you drain the water, then it comes back on, then one would question the fuel source. It might settle to the bottom of the CAT filter, but what indication do you have that it is or isn't present? At least with the factory filter you have some type of "heads-up" that water is there.

I am not just going to assume that everyone who has handled the fuel before it is put in my tank did so properly. I prefer not to fly by the seat of my pants :lol:

especially since basically everyone I deal with these day is incompetent at their job....it is refreshing to visit these boards and see that there are still intelligent people out there in the world.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

Quote:

At least with the factory filter you have some type of "heads-up" that water is there.

As I said before if you saw how much water has to be in the filter before the light goes off you would see that its to late anyway. By the time that much water enters the filter you will have frozen the filter up already if its winter time.

Greg

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:51 am

cevans wrote:

First off, there is no "water separator" in our fuel filters, period. The only thing that exists is a drain at the bottom of our filters, which can be used to check and/or drain settled water. There is no magic mechanism or filter media inside a 30 dollar filter that can separate the water molecules from the rest of the fuel and deposit them neatly in the drainage area. Water accumulates at the bottom because it settles there. There is barely ANY flow through the filter, so, heavier objects settle to the bottom. (also why ON's filter was only 1/3 dirty, the visible crap just settled toward the bottom)

As many people have attested and I too can share their experience, proper fuel almost guarantees you will never have water settling inside your fuel filter. Secondly, as mentioned, if your fuel is that contaminated, a fuel filter isn't going to save your engine.

Now, back to the magical water separator. The CAT filter will do EXACTLY the same thing as the OEM filter: allow water to settle at the bottom. You will loose the ability to drain the filter. However, fromm y viewpoint, draining the filter of non-existant water is pretty much futile. At point where there might be less than a drop of water could be at 40,000 miles, at which point, I'm assuming, we'd be changing our filters anyway...so, for me, the drain at the bottom (or the misnomer "water separator") is useless.

On the other hand, the CAT is much cheaper than the VW OEM alternative, and when I switched to it, was 12 bucks a pop. Not as cheap anymore, clearly, but still better than a $30+ fuel filter from VW. I'm not entirely sure the extra filtration is necessary, but it definitely isn't going to hurt anything.

Its a great filter, for sure, CAT makes the best. Personal opinion wether it will make any difference, but don't kid yourself that the CAT filter is missing a "feature" that the OEM has.

But that is why we have different size holes in the filter. The fuel goes in the smaller outside holes and out the larger middle hole. There is circulation. It's not a settling bulb like on an old AC tracter. The design does allow for water to "settle" though. But it's not like fuel runs over the top of this thing, and trash settles out by gravity. Little more to it than that.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:52 am

LanduytG wrote:

Quote:

At least with the factory filter you have some type of "heads-up" that water is there.

As I said before if you saw how much water has to be in the filter before the light goes off you would see that its to late anyway. By the time that much water enters the filter you will have frozen the filter up already if its winter time.

Greg

Now you've got me curious because I thought there was about 1.5" of water collection space below the filter media.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:07 pm

LanduytG wrote:

Quote:

At least with the factory filter you have some type of "heads-up" that water is there.

As I said before if you saw how much water has to be in the filter before the light goes off you would see that its to late anyway. By the time that much water enters the filter you will have frozen the filter up already if its winter time.

Greg

I have not, but apparently you have. Would you care to share the information with us? I think it would be very helpful to the discussion.

It just seems awful careless to me to just do away with the system even if it isn't the most efficient....in this case I feel something is better than nothing. At least I will know if that I have water in the fuel...and hopefully it won't be too late. I have noticed posts where the light has come on and people had to drain theirs. Not many, but one or two.

Who Wants A Better Fuel Filter Thats Cheaper To Replace?

Who is online