Who Wants A Better Fuel Filter Thats Cheaper To Replace?

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:49 pm

I don't know why there would be more particles after a filter than before it. Is it possible that the filter was jostled and accumulated debris was dislodged? Is it possible that Old Navy's tank is crapped up and added to the particle count? I assume the unfiltered sample was taken at the pump and not from the tank? I don't know, and I wasn't really trying to solve that mystery, I was just saying that the filter media doesn't seem to be paper. It looked like some sort of synthetic weave to me. I guess it could still shed even if it is a synthetic. I didn't take pics of mine, but I think somebody posted pics of a cut open filter a while back. I think your tests show that the OEM filtration could be improved considerably (whatever the media), and I like that idea.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

Quote:

As you can see the particle counts went up on the 4 and 6 micron counts. After seeing this I got in contact with a lubrication engineer by the name of George Morrison. George has a lot of experience with fuel analysis and I asked him wh we had more particles out of the filter than out of the pump. He said he has seen this many times. What’s going on is the filter media he said must be paper and when water comes in contact with the paper that is begins to degrade and fall apart which causes the particle count to go up. As you can see the water was 708 ppm out of the filter and the pump was only 70 ppm which explains why we are seeing a rise in particle count. What we will do now is take another sample from the old filter just to verify what we already have and then take one after a new filter is put on.

This explains way we saw a higher particle count. The water will cause the paper to disolve. George said this is a real tell tail sign of a paper filter. Now granted it might not be 100% paper but enought to have issues. I have done many a samples and I always use a triple dump and flush. Thats where you fill the sample bottle half half way cap it and shack it. Then dump it out and do again and again. Same procedur was used at the pump and the pump had a 30 micron filter on it. By using this method of sampling you can be asusred of a good sample.

Greg

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:13 pm

oldnavy wrote:

LanduytG wrote:

I'm kind of curious what do you think it is? I will take George's many years of experience when it comes analyising (sp) filters. When he has seen this happen many times its hard to urgue the point.

Greg

Isn't George about the #1 in the country when looking for a fuel/oil scientist?

Haven't been following the discussion that close....but did George see the filter? Seems to me that he was just commenting on the test results based on others input. Also, based on my imperfect recall, wasn't the first sample taken from the dealer pump not from the input to the Liberty filter? Lots of potential points of contamination between the filler and the filter I would think.

I would be up for a better filter. Would this be in addition to the OEM? Not sure I want to eliminate the OEM and the heater.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:51 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

Haven't been following the discussion that close....but did George see the filter? Seems to me that he was just commenting on the test results based on others input. Also, based on my imperfect recall, wasn't the first sample taken from the dealer pump not from the input to the Liberty filter? Lots of potential points of contamination between the filler and the filter I would think.

I would be up for a better filter. Would this be in addition to the OEM? Not sure I want to eliminate the OEM and the heater.

We took two samples, one from the clean side of my filter and one from the pump where I by the fuel. This is the proper way to check a fuel delivery system, any other way would skew the test results. You only take a sample from the vehicle tank if you are checking for contaminates in the vehicles fuel tank such as microbes.

The OEM filter is crap as can be seen with the fuel sample testing and the OEM heater will be retained.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

Everything will stay in play except the WIF sensor. You will not loose the heater.

Greg

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:44 pm

I guess I'm missing something, but it seems like a sample needs to be taken immediately before the filter and immediately after it in order to know the effect of the filter. If the fuel at the dispensing pump is representative of what is being fed to the filter, where did the water come from?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:50 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

I guess I'm missing something, but it seems like a sample needs to be taken immediately before the filter and immediately after it in order to know the effect of the filter. If the fuel at the dispensing pump is representative of what is being fed to the filter, where did the water come from?

I'll give you 3 guess and the first 2 don't coun't.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:02 pm

I guuess that was not called for on my part. It is most likely condensation in my tank, may be moisture hang over from when I was using B10 or the wet climate and high humidity.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:04 pm

I don't have to guess really. The water would have to be from condensation or a loose fuel cap. My point is that along with the water, there may be other junk in your tank. The particle count coming out of the filter could have been higher because of what was actually going in to the filter. Something of a moot point I know because the really relevant fact is that too much junk is getting past the filter - regardless of its source.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:42 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

I don't have to guess really. The water would have to be from condensation or a loose fuel cap. My point is that along with the water, there may be other junk in your tank. The particle count coming out of the filter could have been higher because of what was actually going in to the filter. Something of a moot point I know because the really relevant fact is that too much junk is getting past the filter - regardless of its source.

Not too likely with the trash in tank due to plastic tank and newess of vehicle, I had been running with a locking gas cap, but had taken it off few days before Greg came by. I wanted to try and make it work with the retainer and just hadn't got to doing that yet.

Correct the point is moot as you say, just too much junk getting past the filter.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:31 am

Well, until Greg can start making kits to switch over to the Cat 2 micron filter, I may have found a substitute that is substantially better than the OEM filter and should fit directly on the OEM mounting head without modification.

All you have to do to get one is drop by your local New Holland Farm Equipment dealer. :shock:

Went to the Fleetguard/Cummins website and looked thru their online catalog supplement for fuel filters and water seps, copying down the P/N's for the ones with large enough dimensions and the correct thread/gasket size (about 30 to 40 of them). Then went to the Wix website and saw which ones crossed over to a Wix P/N, and used their spec sheet to see what the micron and other ratings were.

One, Fleetguard FS19680 / Cummins 2830997, crossed over to Wix 33765. Listed as being used on New Holland tractors Models TS110A and TS130A with Cummins 4.5 L and 6.7 L turbo engines. M16 X 1.5 thread, glass filter media, 4 to 6 gpm, beta ratio B75 = 5 (98.7% efficient at 5 microns), fuel/water separator with drain.

Checked at O'Reillys today. It's a special order, and they sent an inquiry in today to see if any were available. Should have an answer back on Monday.

Went to a New Holland website, and found the parts list for these two model tractors. New Holland P/N for the filter is 87803187, sender (I'm assuming wif sensor/drain) 504063255, complete fuel filter assy kit 504063253.

Double checked on the Wix website, the New Holland P/N crossed back to the same Wix number, 33765.

Not as good as the Cat filter, but a bloody far sight better than the OEM filter, and potentially something we can use without any mods until Greg is ready to start supplying Cat Conversion kits. Can't say for sure until someone can get ahold of one and see if it fits.

Pretty freaking sad that a farm tractor has a better fuel filter than our Jeeps. :evil:

Feel like I'm back on the boat playing RPPO, digging thru drawings and specs to find parts to jury-rig a piece of equipment because the supposedly correct parts won't work or are unavailable. When I was on one rather old fast boat in Norfolk, Ace Hardware could have changed their motto to "the place with all the parts to keep your nuclear submarine running" from all the business we gave them. Looks like it was good training for owning a CRD. :roll:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:38 am

One other goodie from the Wix website. The spec sheet for their replacement for the OEM filter (33647) doesn't list a micron rating (imagine that) and lists the filter media as paper.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:00 am

I spent many a year as a P&E (Planning & Estimating) type, everything from nuke, sub-safe, MIRC's and electronic cal to gun/firecontrol repairs.

Guess I will see if I can get one of these (Wix 33765) today on order from O'Reillys while I wait for the adaptor for 2 micron Cat from Greg.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:38 am

retmil46 wrote:

Pretty freaking sad that a farm tractor has a better fuel filter than our Jeeps. :evil:

Does this really surprise you given the other spec equipment issues with this vehicle?

Interesting side note, Jeep mailed me two free tickets to the Cleveland Autoshow so I went yesterday. Went to the Jeep display area looking for a GC CRD to check a few plumbing details such as this (yes, I was the possessed quack with a grease rag & 5/16 nutdriver in my coat pocket, 18 months of a CRD made me this way). They didn't have a CRD on the floor and the V-6 CRD engine was not included in their engine display area.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:41 am

oldnavy wrote:

I spent many a year as a P&E (Planning & Estimating) type, everything from nuke, sub-safe, MIRC's and electronic cal to gun/firecontrol repairs.

Guess I will see if I can get one of these (Wix 33765) today on order from O'Reillys while I wait for the adaptor for 2 micron Car from Greg.

If O'Reillys can't get the Wix version (it is for farm equipment, not a road going vehicle, and special order), it should be a standard stocked item at a New Holland dealer, especially with you being out in big-time farm country.

Since it's a Cummins engine in these beasts, I'd lay odds that even with a New Holland P/N and label, what you're actually getting is a Cummins/Fleetguard filter.

I googled "New Holland Tractor Fuel Filters", and one of the hits was their main website with a dealer locator and parts list by model. Nice exploded drawings and detailed parts listing, right down to individual bolts with thread size and pitch.

Must be a sizeable tractor, one of those beasts with the enclosed cab and such, what with a 6.7 L turbo Cummins. Probably would make my grandfather's old Allis-Chalmers look like a toy by comparison.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:38 pm

retmil46 wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

I spent many a year as a P&E (Planning & Estimating) type, everything from nuke, sub-safe, MIRC's and electronic cal to gun/firecontrol repairs.

Guess I will see if I can get one of these (Wix 33765) today on order from O'Reillys while I wait for the adaptor for 2 micron Car from Greg.

If O'Reillys can't get the Wix version (it is for farm equipment, not a road going vehicle, and special order), it should be a standard stocked item at a New Holland dealer, especially with you being out in big-time farm country.

Since it's a Cummins engine in these beasts, I'd lay odds that even with a New Holland P/N and label, what you're actually getting is a Cummins/Fleetguard filter.

I googled "New Holland Tractor Fuel Filters", and one of the hits was their main website with a dealer locator and parts list by model. Nice exploded drawings and detailed parts listing, right down to individual bolts with thread size and pitch.

Must be a sizeable tractor, one of those beasts with the enclosed cab and such, what with a 6.7 L turbo Cummins. Probably would make my grandfather's old Allis-Chalmers look like a toy by comparison.

I called the O'Reilly's just now, they will check tomorrow to see if they can get the filter. Monday I will call the local farm supply stores and get one located, one other place to try is local OTR truck center since they are open 24/7. I guess I'll give them a try.

Just did, no luck. The guy at the truck center laughed and said I was wasting my time looking for a filter with water sensor port. He said the sensors are not worth crap and all you need is a filter with a drain or just change them regular. That is when I told him I was going to switch over to a Cat 2 micron filter next month when my adaptor got here. His comment was smart move, just remember to change them about every 30,000 miles or less if your buying crappy fuel on regular basis.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:40 pm

Missed something on my notes from Fleetguard. Besides the FS19680, there's also the FS19774.

If you type in the New Holland number on Fleetguard's cross reference, it pops up with the FS19774. On the data sheet, lists as a replacement for the same Cummins P/N, with a note that for the European market to use the FS19680.

If you type in the Wix P/N, it says you can use either the FS19680 or FS19774 as a replacement.

Pics of the two Fleetguard versions show just a water drain on the bottom. Apparently, if you have a wif sensor on the vehicle, you can remove the drain valve and screw in the wif instead, or just leave the drain valve installed. Don't know if the Wix or New Holland versions come with a drain valve or plug, or just an open port for the sensor.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

retmil46 wrote:

Missed something on my notes from Fleetguard. Besides the FS19680, there's also the FS19774.

If you type in the New Holland number on Fleetguard's cross reference, it pops up with the FS19774. On the data sheet, lists as a replacement for the same Cummins P/N, with a note that for the European market to use the FS19680.

If you type in the Wix P/N, it says you can use either the FS19680 or FS19774 as a replacement.

Pics of the two Fleetguard versions show just a water drain on the bottom. Apparently, if you have a wif sensor on the vehicle, you can remove the drain valve and screw in the wif instead, or just leave the drain valve installed. Don't know if the Wix or New Holland versions come with a drain valve or plug, or just an open port for the sensor.

Drains on most filters can't be removed, and the chances of the thread being the same are slim.

Greg

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:21 pm

oldnavy wrote:

Just did, no luck. The guy at the truck center laughed and said I was wasting my time looking for a filter with water sensor port. He said the sensors are not worth crap and all you need is a filter with a drain or just change them regular. That is when I told him I was going to switch over to a Cat 2 micron filter next month when my adaptor got here. His comment was smart move, just remember to change them about every 30,000 miles or less if your buying crappy fuel on regular basis.

Does this engine do weird things if the WIF is left unplugged? Should be able to tape-back the harness/connector to keep it clean & dry and just store the WIF sensor in the toolbox in case it's needed? Then just spin a CAT or another make filter that meets spec onto a thread adaptor? This will make my NAPA guy happy.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:46 pm

RFCRD wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

Just did, no luck. The guy at the truck center laughed and said I was wasting my time looking for a filter with water sensor port. He said the sensors are not worth crap and all you need is a filter with a drain or just change them regular. That is when I told him I was going to switch over to a Cat 2 micron filter next month when my adaptor got here. His comment was smart move, just remember to change them about every 30,000 miles or less if your buying crappy fuel on regular basis.

Does this engine do weird things if the WIF is left unplugged? Should be able to tape-back the harness/connector to keep it clean & dry and just store the WIF sensor in the toolbox in case it's needed? Then just spin a CAT or another make filter that meets spec onto a thread adaptor? This will make my NAPA guy happy.

So far it hasn't as I have had it off since Thursday evening with a small plastic ziplock bag zip tied over it is all and it has been in the rain Friday night, couple of times Saturday and this morning without any problems. If all goes well with long term run w/o WIF, then I will cut the wires to the plug and do a permanent fix on the wire ends.

It will make your NAPA guy happy, not to mention save you about $15 every filter change. :wink:

Who Wants A Better Fuel Filter Thats Cheaper To Replace?

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