I called DC and was told that the F37 is NOT a recall but a customer satisfation action...I did ask about warranty issues and was told (nothing in writing) I was right, not getting it done would only affect drivability - they just didn't tell me it would never drive the same again.

The LBJ is a NHTSB safety recall and therefore not dodge-able (pun inteded). But if you opt out of the F37 and a transmission does fail, it will be a matter of discussion about who pay$ I'm sure. If you can just sidestep the issue when you go in for other maintenance and "forget" to come back, then they probably won't send the Sheriff after you.

All of this is IMHO...and worth what you paid for it. But, in my rearview mirror look at this whole mess, I would hold out as long as humanly possible. I have had my share of grief over this F37. My CRD "bull" is now a steer...no putting it back like it was.

Could we pool our $$ and by Jeep from DC? New thread I guess.

_________________
Mike

----------------------
His: 06 Atlantic Blue CRD
OEM Tow Pkg
T&H SS Bullbar
PIAA Driving Lamps
-----------------------
Her's: 09 Prius (no kidding)

Yea, we're all calling it a recall, but we know what it is. Sorry your CRD was casterated. Mine still thinks of itself as being intact.

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

Mine was just done last thursday and it wasn't on backorder then.

_________________
Ryan
2006 Ford F-250 PSD CC FX4
**GONE**
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
SAMCO Hoses//GDE Tune//PML Trans Pan//TransGo HD Shift Kit//MBRP Exhaust

1986 2R Mustang SVO

Peter, how's your hwy mileage? I'm getting 14-16mpg in the city AFTER F37, and I got the new TC. I'm not at all happy about this. For some reason though, highway mileage is fine...33-35mgp. I have no clue what's going on...I'll be taking it to the dealer at the end of the week.

Cheers,
Duey

_________________
2K9 Space Grey 335d Sport
2K1 Galaxy Blue Jetta TDI 5-sp

Like I said in other post - the CSN is a "recommended" service. How can they mandate (under the threat of voiding warranties) that you allow them to perform services, or warranty work, that does not return the vehicle back to original specification? I don't think that there is any question that the CSN will not return the vehicle back to original specifications because it basically states that it won't (re: "The repair involves a small reduction in engine torque to enhance torque converter and transmission durability.").

Some here say that they've been told (hearsay) that they - DCX - are only manipulating torque during or around the shift points. If that were true then why would DCX have felt compelled to put the above sentence in the notice? After all, you should still be able to meet specifications if all you’re doing is manipulating torque around shift points. If you're still meeting specifications then why would you put that statement/sentence in the document? Common sense suggest that this document/notice was carefully crafted (IOW: ran through the bean-counter and legal departments mills). They most likely put that sentence in the notice for a reason. It seems logical to me that they put that sentence in the document to cover their stupid.

Now can DCX void your warranty if you refuse to have the CSN done? I'm not a lawyer, but my bet is that they can not. I suspect, and therefore believe, that they can not force you to accept, or force you to allow them to do, work that will not return the vehicle back to original specifications. I suspect if you refuse the CSN and have any issues while your vehicle is still under warranty, then DCX is still obligated to perform the repairs. I've read post that state, that when pressed, DCX will admit this. But then again that is just hearsay.

You can choose to have the CSN work done. That may serve you well. But by allowing the CSN to be done you are by default agreeing to it's terms. Those terms are that in exchange for a (dubious) fix that will (so they say) enhance TC and transmission reliability - you agreeing to allow DCX to do warranty work that may not return the vehicle to original specifications (will return the vehicle to you with reduce torque - or a reduced performance specification). This pretty much eliminates DCX's liability in the near term. You might be hard pressed after the fact trying to sue DCX (if you have allowed the CSN to be done) because you are now not getting what you paid for in terms of performance specifications. After all it wasn't a mandatory recall. It was a "recommended" service offer that you choose to allow them to do, and by doing so you agreed - by default - to the conditions of that offer.

Again, having the CSN work done may serve you well. Then again you may end up having TC problems again in the future. That's a real possibility. If DCX has to reduce the torque so that this newly installed torque converter might survive (for how long?), then this suggest that DCX is simply replacing the old part for another part that again isn't adequate for this application. Why put another inferior TC in there as a fix? We'll it would certainly be cheaper if they used a TC that they already have in inventory (or that is in inventory and only needs minor modification) and if it gets the vehicle past it's warranty period - well even better. That route would definitely be cheaper the redesigning or outsourcing a TC that was really up for the job. Having this CSN done may be a measure (that they have swindled you into) that simply allows DCX to kick the can down the road long enough so that DCX can escape or minimize further liability (sorry your warranty has expired).

I can’t believe that DCX has the nerve to call this thing a Customer Satisfaction Notice. Then again…. Yes I can.

If my above speculations (about the purpose of the CSN) are indeed true, then I think that DCX should be sued. I suspect though, that it is likely that the bean counter mill has factored into this equation the small number of buyers of this product and the likelihood that this small number would produce an individual (or individuals) that would bring suit. Unfortunately the bean counter might be right.

As for myself - I’ll take my chance and will refuse this CSN. I will also prevent any further “flashes” from being performed on my vehicle.

You are claiming that the replacement TC is inferior, but what if it were not with the torque reduction? What if it were a better part, and together with the reduced torque, they are in deed saying..."Sorry guys we screwed up. We put to much of a rocket engine in front of your sled. Here is a fix. Sorry, but we now have it right." What if??? It seems to me, that if you admitt that DCX has an inferior part in there, and you don't reduce the cause, isn't it inevitable that at some point the thing will break? Why make it break? Why not try for a fix that sounds reasonable?

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

This "logic" gave me a good chuckle. While this is an amusing thought, it certainly doesn't hold up to any serious logical inspection. DC sells and delivers vehicles every day that have more torque than the CRD. Why aren't they routinely detuned?

If it were an appropriate part (TC), it would handle the 295 ft-lbs of torque as promised, sold and originally delivered. Addressing reliability issues by reducing existing power levels cannot be legally performed without explicit permission of the owners. Rocket engine? Give me a break. The dodge Hemi with the same tranny has more torque than this. Does that make the Hemi engine a warp drive? Will they have to endure a "we fixed it" detune also? Do Toyota truck customers have a detune flash? Is this standard industry practice?

It's too late to legally detune, once you advertise and sell it at one specification, then detune it without permission when someone else owns it. Not when there are TC's available that will handle the R428 engine torque and more. With current diesel TC technology available to handle from 400 to 1200 ft-lbs of torque, detuning for 295 ft-lbs is not the only or legally sound choice available, but it is the lowest cost option to DC. That's not appropriate when it fails to meet original power levels. That's not acceptable, not legally, nor by common sense, nor by good customer service. BTW, the 545RFE shipped with the 4.7L V8, and came with 295 ft-lbs on the standard engine, 325 on the HO engine. No detuning required there. No detuning required on the Hemi equipped Dodge truck. That argument won't hold water for any viewpoint except to excuse what DC did to their customers personal property, without their permission.

"Here is a fix. Sorry, but we now have it right." Not until it delivers original power levels and performance. Not when it drives with noticeably degraded performance. For those who have noticeable power loss, much higher shifting far above the peak torque range, in comparison to how it used to operate, its not right. For those who experienced no power loss, they shouldn't care one way or the other, unless the "fix" fails prematurely or fuel economy suffers.

We know that they took the less expensive route by detuning instead of using a TC that can handle the R428 as advertised and delivered in 2005. We know they detuned by customer experience of loss of performance and their own printed admission. We know there are TC's that can handle torque loads much higher than the CRD engine. Detuning was not DC's only option.

I'm going to assume that you are simply arguing for the sake of debate, since by your own admission you didn't experience any noticeable power loss and therefore have absolutely no idea of what those who did are experiencing. From that viewpoint, you are debating a subject with which you have no personal loss or vested interest. While it may entertain you to debate, many of those with the issue are seeking a solution, rather than a possible explanation of how to live with degraded performance.

Several of us are working on our own solution, to the point where we are willing to spend several thousand dollars of our own money on getting our tranny's and TC's to handle the R428 power and torque as delivered in early 2005. You don't spend that kind of money on a slight power loss. If the power level was anywhere near original, this thread wouldn't exist. This isn't a debate to us about a subject we read on a forum, but didn't experience. This is a serious matter to us.


Enjoy your CRD.

_________________
2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

Please...

You can't be serious...

Perhaps you are...

It is implicit that the TC is inferior, or inadequate for this application, by the mere fact that the installation of said TC requires a reduction in torque (and therefore a change in the original performance specification.) These original specifications, by the way, are what were sold, bought, and paid for. There is no question that an adequate TC could be provided and installed that would allow the original specifications to be maintained. In this case however, it is quite apparent that DCX has decided on an approach that is most advantageous to them even though they've done a masterful job of selling it as being about "customer satisfaction." If you want to buy into that, then be my guest. I prefer to live in reality.

What you suggest is analogous to selling the government a radar that is supposed be able to track 10 multiple targets, and then saying after delivery of, and payment for, said radar - “Oops, sorry, we made a mistake and the radar we sold you can only detect weather." I can say that if you tried to pull that - the least of your problems would be about getting paid. Your only solution to such a self inflicted predicament would be to actually produce what you originally sold or face the consequences.

If you want to spend your time being an apologist for DCX, then go ahead, knock yourself out. But I for one don't find any merit in your argument.

In the land of "What if" anything is possible, right? Talking about "ifs"...

if DCX was more responsive to customer inquiries,
if DCX was more transparent about their remedies to our problems,
if the list of service bulletins and recalls for our CRDs wasn’t so long,
if DCX wasn't in trouble for the mounting Lemon Law proceedings,
if DCX hadn't been sued successfully for a similar situation with the Dakota R/T,
if our own experience with DCX was to change,

... perhaps we would be more amenable to such discussions. However, we are not getting answers to our questions. We are left to our own devices to figure out what DCX will do. We love the CRDs we have, and we want answers so that all of those other manufactures don't look compelling since their customers are not so familiar with the service managers at their dealers. In short, we need some convincing that DCX cares about the 11,000+ folks that invested in their innovative idea to have a diesel Jeep in the US. Isn’t that reasonable?

_________________
Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Reply to DnaDiesel who posted ,Peter, how's your hwy mileage? I'm getting 14-16mpg in the city AFTER F37, and I got the new TC. I'm not at all happy about this. For some reason though, highway mileage is fine...33-35mgp. I have no clue what's going on...I'll be taking it to the dealer at the end of the week.

A couple of weeks ago I did a 300 miles highway only trip and I got only 20 mpg , oops that would be Imperial gallons , wait that translates to about17-18 mpg (American glns), that is only half what you are getting ! The beast is absolutely incredibly thirsty.
Anyhow the CRD is still in the shop, just got a phonecall at work today that suddenly as by a strange coincidence a new torque convertor showed up on the dealers doorstep up this morning (this is the one that was yesterday a couple of weeks away?!?).
The ways of DCX are mysterious indeed..........and the saga continues.[/b]

_________________
It's got a CRD, sweet! (KJ Newbie since 2002!)
- KJ 14 mpg replaced with WK 28 mpg
- OEM hitch and OEM tow harness added
- Reese Pilot brake controller

BVCRD,
You want proof: Then why did DCX detune the CRD? They cut the Torque back on these beast. If they were so confident with the new TC then why turn down he torque? I think you work for DCX as a comic book writer. You sure jump to there defense very quickly.

_________________
O|||||||O

LOST #-169388
'79 CJ-5
32x11.50x15
304 V8

'08 Chevorlet HHR
Victory Red
Stock for now.

I'm sure they tuned down the torque so just in case they are wrong yet again, it doesn't happen a second time. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....... I am for real here. No comic book stuff. I am a Jeep Liberty enthusiast, not a Jeep Liberty Beeatcher. BTW, NADA probably moniters this site and your resale values are dropping. Now THAT was a joke. Not very funny huh?

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

Then why didn't they come out and say that? Of course, if they did, would a reasonable person remain skeptical?



"What if" DCX is just trying to not make it break for a little while longer? "What if" DCX knows they have a problem here that could potentially be very expensive to correct? "What if" DCX's answer to this issue is to come up with a fix that gets everyone through their factory warranty period? I know this sounds devious and short sighted but "what if"?



I'm sure F31 sounded reasonable at the time. I usually don't buy an extended warranty, but in this case I did. I have a strange feeling that I'm gonna need it.

_________________
2006 Liberty Limited CRD Bright Silver Metallic (NOW SOLD)
All Recalls Performed
100k extended warranty
Fumoto Oil Drain Valves (Oil Pan & Transfer Case)
V6 Airbox Mod
New Driveshaft, New EGR
2003 Wrangler Sport 4.0L, Bright Blue
2007 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited 4 Door, Red Rock Crystal Pearl WOW!!!

Perhaps. I hope not for both our sake. If it comes to some of the horror stories like I have read here, I'll dump it and go for the next set of troubles.

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

Well how about this "IF" If the new TC was proper for this application then they would have not needed to detune to "cancel out any future happenings"
Furthermore DC is the only source that knows if the replacment is indeed better and they have not released any data period and that only compounds the matter
Your speculation is just that, speculation

_________________
Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)

Oooooooooooooo.....Those Germans are at it again....
I bet in the DC company directory you'll find names like... Goehring (CEO North American Operations), Von Rippentrop (Sales & Marketing), Geobbles (Warranty/Service Operations)

_________________
05 KJ CRD Limited..
08 WK CRD Laredo
03 DR 2500 Cummins
13 Edge Limited AWD

Not really. I was told by a tech (DC man) that the tc is different. I have no reason to call him a liar.

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

Not a lover of the Gerrys, but I do know that Napolean, started off with the best of intensions, but sadly, they went astray.

_________________
2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

So much for your "What if it's a better part" argument. I guess you can never loose an argument if you argue both sides.



Are you for real? C'mon, customer feedback, both positive and negative, is a critical element of a product's improvement process.




How does that tin foil hat fit?

_________________
2006 Liberty Limited CRD Bright Silver Metallic (NOW SOLD)
All Recalls Performed
100k extended warranty
Fumoto Oil Drain Valves (Oil Pan & Transfer Case)
V6 Airbox Mod
New Driveshaft, New EGR
2003 Wrangler Sport 4.0L, Bright Blue
2007 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited 4 Door, Red Rock Crystal Pearl WOW!!!

Awwwwwww....I was just spoofin' a little.....
But I think Mr. BVCRD you are right on the money on your assements.
You appear to be a fair honest man. Even the most Evil of Companies (And I am NOT calling DC evil) deserve a chance to remedy faulty equipment
as best they see fit. AND not everyone will be satisfied. Few ever are.

_________________
05 KJ CRD Limited..
08 WK CRD Laredo
03 DR 2500 Cummins
13 Edge Limited AWD