I have recently purchased a 05' crd sport upon all the allocades and write ups its seemed the right tool to do the job. After finding out about all of the problems with this vehicle I am very bummed out. How in the hell dose a vehicle go thru product developnment like this one and make it to market? I guess It did'nt.
I have yet to receive shippment of my vehicle so I don't know how it was befor the F-37 reflash/tc replacement. I shure hope they replaced the cooler and pump. I could not get the service manger at Moore nissan/jeep of ST LO MS to confirm that they took that action when they performed the update I pulled up the records from my local jeep DC service dept and was shocked egr rewoked x2, ball joints, electrical sensors.
I am right along with you guys I think there should be some legal action to set things right for the dupped consumer. No Japanese auto maker would ever try to put this crap over on the GP.Shame on DC.
Great concept bad execution. I belive CRD libberty is also being sold in the european market, What are they doing for gear boxes and is there a mannual box available in the european exports. flatfender

Yes, they have the manual gears. Look at it this way, those items have been repaired. Ball joint may always be an issue every 30,000 miles or so. The egr and other issues may be gone for good. Don't lose any sleep until you have a sleepless night.

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2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

Your right about that I will try to keep an optomistic view on it at this point.
But man if we could get the gears that would be the end of the problem.
Has any body pursued this option?
Even if you cack a gear box you can usally limp out on one of the remaining gears.I have freind going to England next month he said he would look into it on that end. lets cross our fingers.
Back in the early 80's mazda had their little b2200 truck with a small diesel and a 5 speed behind it I drove the crap out of it thru high school and then my Dad gave it to my uncle who put it to its grave in Idaho with over 500,000 on the OD and no major problems ever. Txs for the pep up BVCRD.

48 willys CJ2A
05 khaki sport CRD
LBJ
F-37
Egr x 2 + sensors
lexus is300 sport cross
F-150 supercrew

There are several threads in this forum on the subject. The lack of a manual transmission option is not a marketability issue and has nothing to do with technical issues such as durability or reliability. It's due to emissions, specifically NOx. DCX has been playing a balancing-act with US emission standards to even sell this vehicle in N. America.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Well, the saga continues. I called the dealer service manager at the end of the day on Friday and he indicated that he had heard from the district service manager. While he doubted that the original ECM configuration would be restored, there was something that the district service manager had in mind. He should call me on Monday. Hopefully, this doesn't turn into a game of delay and denial .

So far, my family has been without the Jeep since last Wednesday (four days and counting). The dealer has refused a loaner and DCX has refused to restore my ECM. Adding insult to injury, the DCX customer service representative said that DCX would expect me to handle any post-ECM flashing issues with my CRD under warranty repairs – shifting the blame to the dealer as if it was the dealer's fault that my CRD was now lethargic!?!

Other CRD owners have suggested that DCX is attempting to get all CRDs to have the ECM flash with the new software that reduces the torque of the engine so that the corporation has reduced risk of TC repairs. This is plausible and has merit when the owner chooses the solution. However, in my case, this is not reasonable since I did not agree to the flash or authorize any alteration of my vehicle. Hence, I feel this is a violation of my rights as the owner of the vehicle. I’m still hopeful that DCX will see the folly in their posture and comes clean.

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

I must say that I agree with your point of view.

I look at it like this - you are the owner of the vehicle and therefore it is YOUR property and not DCX's. No work should be done to YOUR vehicle (property) without your expressed consent. It is you that has the right to decide what work is done to YOUR vehicle (property) and what is not.

For myself I say - DCX can have the final say in making these decisions when they either buy the vehicle and put their name on the title, or at least take over making the monthly payments.

Now there is a sticky part to taking this position. Under some circumstances, refusing some repairs may lead to the warranty being voided. I'm not a lawyer or an expert in these matters, so I'm only speculating here. I suspect that DCX could only void a warranty for refusing things like actual real mandatory recalls (which this CSN does not appear to be). They may also be able to do it if the customer refuses to have a failed item repaired under warranty, especially if that item ends up causing the failure of other parts. Then again if the customer is able to prove that the proposed warranty repair would not return the vehicle to original specification, then it may be possible that the customer has grounds to refuse such work - without voiding the warranty agreement - until an adequate repair is offered.

Me personally - I'd just as soon tell DCX to take their warranty and STICK IT before I'd let them shove something down my throat that I didn't want.

Here is the opening sentence of the F37 CSN:



The fact that they are "recommending" that this work be done implies that having this work done is optional. You should be able to refuse this work without impact to the warranty agreement. I've seen post where when pressed on this issue, DCX has admitted that refusing this work will not void the warranty. Of course post on these boards is nothing more than hearsay.

The text of the CSN also states that "The repair involves a small reduction in engine torque to enhance torque converter and transmission durability." My take on this is that you do not have to have this work done. However, if you choose to have it done then by default you are agreeing to this reduction in torque and in affect you are agreeing to allow DCX to do warranty work that may not return the vehicle to original specification. I suspect this may be why they called it a (recommended) "Customer Satisfaction Notice" and not a (mandatory) recall. By going this route DCX can get away with affecting a substandard fix that will get the vehicle passed the warranty period and at the same time allow DCX to avoid any warranty or other legal issues because you agreed to have this CSN done.

I'm up for the 30k service. The only reason I'm considering taking it back to the dealer for this service is because I have a drivers door wind noise issue that I want fixed under warranty. Baring warranty jobs, I would just as soon have this local shop right down the street do whatever maintenance work that needs to be done. The folks at this shop are more than capable, and would be more than happy, to do the service work on this diesel at more reasonable rates. If and when I take the vehicle into the dealer for this service, I will be having a discussion with them about not attempting to perform any service that requires the reflash of any module (ECM, TCM or otherwise). If they can not comply with my wishes then I will take my business elsewhere.

Currently I do not have any issues with my CRD. I would like to keep it that way. I want to prevent any more monkey’ing around with the vehicle. In essence I'm taking the stand that "if it ain't broke - don't fix it." As I see it now - further monkey’ing around is just as likely to make things worse, or create problems where there wasn't any before. I don't believe the F37 CSN to be anything more than a half-assed fix that simply get's DCX passed the warranty period. I would just a soon drive it as is. If the TC fails before the warranty period expires then I may consider having the dealer fix it. If DCX refuses the warranty work because I refused to accept the conditions of the CSN and have the work done, then I may consider consulting a lawyer. Should I have a TC problem arise while the vehicle is still under warranty and the only fix that DCX will offer is the same half-assed fix one offered in the CSN, then I may just go ahead an tell them to stick their warranty up their you know what and get an aftermarket TC that is actually adequate for the job.

I would rather pay for an adequate aftermarket TC than allow irreversible reprogramming of the ECM/TCM that will result in reduced performance and have a negative impact on the overall character and driving experience of the vehicle.

The folks here that have already had the CSN may never have another problem with their vehicle. Then again their new TC may only make it past the warranty. If that happens then all that was served here was eliminating DCX's liability and saddling the customer with irreversible TCM/ECM programming that neuters the vehicle. The customer may still have to avail themselves of an aftermarket TC but will also have the inferior TCM/ECM programming to deal with. No, there is no technical reason why the modules couldn't be reflashed (at least not that I'm aware of), but you'll not get your hands on the pre-F37 loads to reflash them with. You'll have to look to the aftermarket to solve the programming issues as well.

All in all, when it comes to the F37 CSN, I say no thanks - even if I have to pay out of pocket some day for a new TC.

If this was an ordinary car/vehicle that I could simply swap for something else - I would think about it. As is - I don't see anything out there that can fill this niche like the CRD. I really like the vehicle and if I have to pay a few bucks out of pocket to make it the way I want it then I just may do that. Unless of course something else comes along that can replace it.

No problem. I know some on here have a real gripe, but no need to get the ole blood pressure up unless you have to.

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2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

Hi T^2,

Thanks for the thorough and effective response. I couldn't have said it any better. I too have a plan B that includes a post warranty aftermarket TC and pump when some of the symptoms start to come. I like the sound of the Suncoast solution. So far, I have had no strong indications that my TC is in trouble (we are pretty easy drivers and haven't used it to haul anything beyond a couple of appliances on our small trailer that we have purchased).

There have been a couple of folks that implied in their post that I'm being a bit negative about the F37's ECM flash. I was beginning to wonder if I was too stongly opinioned for this forum to outline my perspectives. However, your message restores my faith in the forum that we are here to encourage and help one another. Thanks again!

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

sbohner,

I agree with your position too. I have not had the F37 or trans problems, and I would be torqued if they modified my vehicle without my consent. I wish you luck. I have to wonder if they can botch the F37 flash in some way that results in a drastic reduction in power. Most posts on the subject are polar opposites. Either the poster can't tell any difference, or it is a totally different, gutless wonder after the F37.

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

No, you are definately on the right track. This is no different than a year ago when I had to explain to a couple of DCX representatives the difference between "normal" and "acceptable." We now have to define the difference between "it works" and "this is the product you represented and sold to me in 9/05." This was a classic case of bait & switch and a legal case should be built against DCX. No appologies necessary and I wouldn't drop the issue. Look what happened to Honda over a minor odometer error. This is a winable case.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Hi Goglio704,

Thanks for the supportive post. While my CRD is not really gutless, it is substantially effected by the ECM flash. I would not be confident if I had to tow a trailer with a load anywhere near the advertised limit. So, in some sense, I'm in-between the two groups.

My situation may be a function of not having the entire F37 routine applied to my CRD or there may be something to do with the adaptive learning mechanism; I don't know -- the DCX and dealer folks are not too transparent on this issue as of yet.

Needless to say, I am not too keen on continuing down this trek and would like to go back to the fork in the road where I didn't have any flashes on my vehicle.

Again, thanks for the encouragement!

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Thanks RFCRD for the encouragement. I just started another thread called "WARNING: New ECM Flashes appear to Reduce Engine Performance" (http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=18046) to warn others of the ECM reflash situation and to discuss how one can respond.

Hopefully, this will be helpful.

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Because of the recalls and the wording on the TSBs that come out for flashing (perform if vehicle is in for service), this would indicate that it is possible for the dealer to flash you anytime you show up. IMO, the only way to avoid being flashed is to avoid the dealer altogether. Even if you tell them not to do anything without calling you...chances are they will do it anyway. It is an unfortunate situation, but I think you are going to get the blame game at this point. DCX is telling you that flash issues should be handled by the dealer and the dealer is going to tell you that there are no issues because the flash is performing as designed. Like I said in your other thread....I don't agree with what has happened here. I don't want to discourage you, but I would be really surprised if you have anything to show for your efforts other than a few free oil changes.

Now this begs the question...could this be considered a safety issue? Reducing the torque is clearly causing the vehicle to behave differently and feel like it has less power. The F37 recall states that it is a "small reduction in torque" but doesn't give any details beyond that. This is really left open to interpetation though...because what one would consider to be small another may consider to be significant. Another thing I don't agree with is that this F37 is listed as a customer satisfaction recall and it seems to be causing more dis-satisfaction among CRD owners and according to what I have read if the recall isn't performed, it could have an affect on warranty claims. If it truly is for customer satisfaction, then the customer should be able to opt-out of this campaign if they don't want to be flashed. DCX needs to fix this problem the right way, and I think we can all agree this isn't the right way.

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06.5 Jetta TDI PKG 2 - Silver/Anth

Hi no-blue-screen,

Unlike safety equipment (e.g., brakes), making the case for reduced torque being a safety issue would take some examples of actual accidents where the root cause could be traced to the behavior of the engine under risky conditions. This would be hard in and of itself. However, as a logical argument accompanying a series of more substantial issues such as misrepresentation of performance and evidence of poor design trade-off selections could bring the case into the realm of plausibility. Basically, it can be shown that DCX’s (validation and verification) quality process somehow missed that a poor design trade-off choice (one that engineering students would get points deducted for on design).

While the idea of component reuse is desirable across product lines, it must be accompanied by a relevant testing process that targets specific tests where the performance requirements/constraints are not the same. In this case, the TC has a significantly different range of performance (designed for gasoline engines) than the output of the diesel component. While programming the TCM can accommodate some of these differences, clearly these were substantial in the case of the Chrysler’s Automatic transmission and the VM Motori unit. Possibly, in the interest of a rapid time to market (launching a diesel in the burgeoning market) or some deficiency in the design quality control, the design trade-off selected may not have been sufficiently tested.

What ever brought about the deficiency is probably not as bad as the response that we are now experiencing.

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Well stated sbohner. What we really need is someone who hasn't had the F37 or F31 flash to put theirs on a dyno before and after the F37. This would tell the tale of what has been done to our CRDs with the flash.

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06.5 Jetta TDI PKG 2 - Silver/Anth

After some discussion with other CRD folks in the know, I realized that I haven't accounted for an important variable in this ECM flash. When they flashed my ECM, did this mean that the adaptive learning mechanism in the TCM detect this and start reprofiling my driving.

This may be something else that could cause the dramatic poor performance in my CRD. I think to be fair, I should take this vehicle on a longer drive than the 25 miles I gave it in the original test drive to be sure of the symptoms and to examine any other changes (e.g., fuel mileage).

I have a trip to Washington DC this Friday and another to Baltimore next week. Perhaps it would be good to take the CRD on the trip instead of my comfort vehicle (I may get some "feedback" from the colleagues that are traveling with me on Friday if we make this change ). Perhaps next week would be better.

What do you think of my reasoning here? Am I wasting my time, or is this a good opportunity to clarify further my position?

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Sounds like a plan. Would disconnecting the battery, and pulling on the headlights reset the learning curve?

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2006 Sport CRD

Could the Aztecs have known, that in 2012 after a 4 year experiment, our country would cease to exist?

sbohner, if you feel like going a little further....I am in Laurel, MD and I can let you drive mine to see if you notice any difference. I know the computer has to readapt anytime you either flash it or disconnect the battery for 15-20 mins or more. Anytime I clean sensors and whatnot, I disconnect the negative battery terminal for 20 mins and then reconnect when I am done so the computer can adjust. The only downside to doing this is that you have to reset the clock.

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06.5 Jetta TDI PKG 2 - Silver/Anth

Thanks again no-blue-screen,

I have some folks with me this time... perhaps on another trip since I go up there frequently.

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Steel Blue 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD
Mopar Skid Plates/GDE Programmer/Fumoto Oil Valve
80K+ miles & still smiling

Sold: Silver 06 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

Who knows...maybe we can arrange a mini GTG sometime. I never see any other CRDs on the road around here....but I know there are a couple around that are members here.

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06.5 Jetta TDI PKG 2 - Silver/Anth