Aftermarket CRD TC/Tranny/TCM Info

BVCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:38 pm

Pablo wrote:

That Torque Converter diesel lady had was a beta-- its was expected that it would have bugs. They have ironed them out. The converter is good at power levels of up to 2000 foot pounds and has a 150,000 mile warranty at that power level. It should last along time. It is not a "conventional" torque converter but has its own unique design with significant differences designed to reduce the usage of fluid coupling, you can check their web page for more info. I am almost sold on it as no one has posted any comments derogatory of it and the lower the load on the fluid the better.

Here is where I am having a problem, I talked to the dealer and tried to get them to use an after-market torque converter that I provided instead of theirs for F37. No luck. They will only do F37 with their POS converter. Since mine is going out, I am either going to have to pay to get the whole thing done elsewhere (lines and inter-cooler replaced, fluid and filters, and pump) or get F37 done and then pay to get someone else to swap the torque converter out with a torque converter that I bought after-market.

Would it even be ok to have the dealer do the F37 work (including POS torque converter install) and then install another after-market torque converter right after it is done, or would the new pump's seal be damaged in the switch-- requiring another pump (seal) for the after-market torque converter?

I am trying to find a way to minimize my cost in this. I don't mind paying for an aftermarket converter, but I should not have to pay to fix something under warranty on my currently stock powertrain.

Well, they paid out of pocket damages for those that had bad LBJ and chose to replace them before the recall went out. The F37 as you know isn't a recall. The dealer's hands are tied in what DCX will let them do or fund. Just my thought, but I think you are going to have to eat all of this replacement on your own if you do it outside of DCX parts. Law suits may prove different, but that is a ways off yet.

cerich · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:34 pm

resd F37 it says at the end if you have had the work already done submit to DC for payment.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:40 pm

cerich wrote:

resd F37 it says at the end if you have had the work already done submit to DC for payment.

Well there you go. Does it say you need to have documentation that there were problems before hand, or will they buy everyone a ATS?

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

I have accepted DC's stupidity, but what I am trying to figure out is this:

Is it more economical to get an aftermarket torque converter installed right after having F37 done, or will I need to replace the pump (seal) again to keep it from leaking? How does the new seal work? That is my question, as I don't know how it works. If I have to get the pump done twice, I might as well pay to have the whole thing done at a tranny shop. Otherwise, let the dealer do F37 so I don't have to pay for the intercooler and pump (and labor to install them) and have the tranny shop just swap the converters out (ok, take the core and send it off to be built, then put it back in). I was hoping the dealer would just install mine and save me all labor cost, but that was too much to hope for.

So, this is what I am wondering-- if I can save money by having the dealer do F37 and then just get the torque converter swapped right after? I have given up on trying to avoid the flash, as it seems any time the dealer nazi's get your vehicle they are going to flash the piss out of it regardless of what you want anyway.

T^2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:16 pm

Pablo wrote:

That Torque Converter diesel lady had was a beta-- its was expected that it would have bugs. They have ironed them out. The converter is good at power levels of up to 2000 foot pounds and has a 150,000 mile warranty at that power level. It should last along time. It is not a "conventional" torque converter but has its own unique design with significant differences designed to reduce the usage of fluid coupling, you can check their web page for more info. I am almost sold on it as no one has posted any comments derogatory of it and the lower the load on the fluid the better.

Here is where I am having a problem, I talked to the dealer and tried to get them to use an after-market torque converter that I provided instead of theirs for F37. No luck. They will only do F37 with their POS converter. Since mine is going out, I am either going to have to pay to get the whole thing done elsewhere (lines and inter-cooler replaced, fluid and filters, and pump) or get F37 done and then pay to get someone else to swap the torque converter out with a torque converter that I bought after-market.

Would it even be ok to have the dealer do the F37 work (including POS torque converter install) and then install another after-market torque converter right after it is done, or would the new pump's seal be damaged in the switch-- requiring another pump (seal) for the after-market torque converter?

I am trying to find a way to minimize my cost in this. I don't mind paying for an aftermarket converter, but I should not have to pay to fix something under warranty on my currently stock powertrain.

Here are some thoughts...

It sounds to me that you don't have issues with the reprogramming that will be done to your ECM/TCM (and the reduction in torque that it entails) when they do the F37 CSN to your vehicle. If I were in your shoes and was going to go ahead and have the F37 work done, then I don't think that I would be in any big hurry to replace the newly installed TC - especially if your vehicle is still under warranty. Who knows - you may never have another problem with the F37 installed TC. It may survive just fine thanks to the reduction in torque brought about by the ECM/TCM reprogramming. If any future problems occur with you TC (or any other item for that matter), or any other CSN/Recalls come down the pipe, you're warranty is still good and you are still covered. If the new TC only survives long enough to get you beyond the warranty, then you're going to have to pay out of pocket anyway. I’m not sure there is much advantage in getting a monster/bullet-proof/aftermarket TC installed after the fact in this case.

Now if you have issues with the torque reduction that will occur if they do the F37 CSN, then that's another story.

I wonder if a backup could be made of your current ECM/TCM firmware. If it could, that might allow you to go ahead and have the dealer do the F37 work (and net you a newly designed pump etc.) and then restore the ECM/TCM back to original after the fact. You could then get your aftermarket TC installed and would be good to go - with no reduction in torque. Of course you would have to consider cost, impact on warranty, the likelihood that you might have further problems and need the warranty down the road, etc.

INMotion apears to offer "cloning" services for you ECM. What they can do with a TCM - I don't know. I don't know if they can just simply do backups and restorations, or if you have to purchase a second ECM and TCM. I don’t know what the cost of this would be, but if it is cheap enough - in comparison to what you might gain in terms of getting DCX to foot the bill (via the F37 CSN) for the installation of the newly designed pump, plumbing, etc. - then it might be worth looking into.

You would have to do the calculus and see what made the most sense to you in terms of dollars and warranty issues.

For me... I'm not having any problems with my CRD and I do have issues with the torque reduction. So for the moment my answer to the F37 CSN offer is "No Thanks." It appears that some decent aftermarket TC’s are available, or are coming available. If I should start to have problems with the TC, then I may just go ahead and go with one of these aftermarket solutions. That way I don’t have to deal with the DCX torque reducing re-flash. The other benefit is that an aftermarket solution would also allow for some “tuning” down to road (should I take an interest) that neither the current nor post F37 TC’s would likely be able to handle.

What about the warranty? Well I’m not sure DCX could void the warranty if I went ahead and replaced their failed POS TC, with an aftermarket part (and keep the original ECM/TCM programming). I’d have to look into the Magnuson-Moss warranty act to get further insight on that question. If such a move on my part would indeed void the warranty – I would probably still go ahead and do it anyway. First, I don’t think much of DCX’s warranty anyhow - if the F37 CSN is any indication of DCX’s approach to solving problems. Of course it’s a gamble, but I’m betting that I won’t have any other ridiculously expensive issues creep up within 7 years or 70,000 miles. Anything that occurs after that point is on my dime anyway.

That's my thoughts...

T^2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:24 pm

cerich wrote:

resd F37 it says at the end if you have had the work already done submit to DC for payment.

I think that clause would only apply to work that was done before the F37 CSN offer became available.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

T^2 wrote:

Here are some thoughts...

It sounds to me that you don't have issues with the reprogramming that will be done to your ECM/TCM (and the reduction in torque that it entails) when they do the F37 CSN to your vehicle.

I have many issues with that and it annoys me to put it mildly, but saving $1000+ dollars of labor and $400 dollars on parts besides the torque converter is starting to change my mind about it. I am hopeful that getting it chipped later will negate the negatives.

T^2 wrote:

If I were in your shoes and was going to go ahead and have the F37 work done, then I don't think that I would be in any big hurry to replace the newly installed TC - especially if your vehicle is still under warranty. Who knows - you may never have another problem with the F37 installed TC. It may survive just fine thanks to the reduction in torque brought about by the ECM/TCM reprogramming. If any future problems occur with you TC (or any other item for that matter), or any other CSN/Recalls come down the pipe, you're warranty is still good and you are still covered. If the new TC only survives long enough to get you beyond the warranty, then you're going to have to pay out of pocket anyway. I’m not sure there is much advantage in getting a monster/bullet-proof/aftermarket TC installed after the fact in this case.

I would be of the same opinion, except I have been wheeling this thing and that is when the first converter started to die (in 2Low), and I am still stock (no chip and no lift). I don't want to break another one out there in the boonies. After I lift and soon enough, chip this (Inmotion) -- I don't think the stock TC is going to give me a warm fuzzy. Plus if it goes out-- then it may plug filters, overheat the tranny and take it out too. So I am leaning towards fixing it now, so I can enjoy it with less to worry about. The lower stall and higher torque multiplication factor are also benefits.

T^2 wrote:

Now if you have issues with the torque reduction that will occur if they do the F37 CSN, then that's another story.

I wonder if a backup could be made of your current ECM/TCM firmware. If it could, that might allow you to go ahead and have the dealer do the F37 work (and net you a newly designed pump etc.) and then restore the ECM/TCM back to original after the fact. You could then get your aftermarket TC installed and would be good to go - with no reduction in torque. Of course you would have to consider cost, impact on warranty, the likelihood that you might have further problems and need the warranty down the road, etc.

INMotion apears to offer "cloning" services for you ECM. What they can do with a TCM - I don't know. I don't know if they can just simply do backups and restorations, or if you have to purchase a second ECM and TCM. I don’t know what the cost of this would be, but if it is cheap enough - in comparison to what you might gain in terms of getting DCX to foot the bill (via the F37 CSN) for the installation of the newly designed pump, plumbing, etc. - then it might be worth looking into.

That would be awesome, for a variety of reasons. While they can do that with the ECM, I just talked to InMotion and that is not currently the case with the TCM, at least not that he knew of. The TCM is Chrysler, not Bosh- so it is encoded and Greek to them. Maybe they could if I bought another TCM and transferred the data over, but that is another expense.

T^2 wrote:

You would have to do the calculus and see what made the most sense to you in terms of dollars and warranty issues.

For me... I'm not having any problems with my CRD and I do have issues with the torque reduction. So for the moment my answer to the F37 CSN offer is "No Thanks." It appears that some decent aftermarket TC’s are available, or are coming available. If I should start to have problems with the TC, then I may just go ahead and go with one of these aftermarket solutions. That way I don’t have to deal with the DCX torque reducing re-flash. The other benefit is that an aftermarket solution would also allow for some “tuning” down to road (should I take an interest) that neither the current nor post F37 TC’s would likely be able to handle.

What about the warranty? Well I’m not sure DCX could void the warranty if I went ahead and replaced their failed POS TC, with an aftermarket part (and keep the original ECM/TCM programming). I’d have to look into the Magnuson-Moss warranty act to get further insight on that question. If such a move on my part would indeed void the warranty – I would probably still go ahead and do it anyway. First, I don’t think much of DCX’s warranty anyhow - if the F37 CSN is any indication of DCX’s approach to solving problems. Of course it’s a gamble, but I’m betting that I won’t have any other ridiculously expensive issues creep up within 7 years or 70,000 miles. Anything that occurs after that point is on my dime anyway.

That's my thoughts...

Agree with most of them, except as noted above. Like you, I am no longer interested in DC's "warranty". The aftermarket converters also come with their own warranty. The difference is, I don't think I will need to use the aftermarket warranty-- I know I will need DC's on this part.

hatchetman · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:47 pm

Could you find someone who is pre F37 flash and use that module(TCM) to copy? :evil:

T^2 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:01 pm

hatchetman wrote:

Could you find someone who is pre F37 flash and use that module(TCM) to copy? :evil:

I believe he's pre F37 (has not had the CSN worked done). He could use his own TCM module for duplication. The problem is how do you clone it - or who can you find that can clone it? Pablo said that the TCM was encoded. If by encoded he means encrypted, then it may not be possible to clone the module. DCX may be the only folks that could do such a thing...

AZScout · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:22 pm

This is the reason why inMotion couldnt chip our TCM. It is a Chrysler TCM and no one has decoded it as of yet. As a point of reference, I was told that when InMotion had to decode a Mercedes TCM, it took 3 months of 12 hour days to get it done. For 12,000 CRD's, of which maybe 1,000 are on the board and maybe 10% of those people looking to chip, the cost benefit is just not there for the R&R.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:25 am

Anyone have any more news on Suncoast? Been meaning to call myself, but what's going on at work and trying to close a deal on some land has kind of overridden everything else.

Once all this strike and shutdown crap is resolved, it'll be time to do some tranny surgery, provided Suncoast feels they have the new TC design nailed down.

crdmike · **Joined:** Tue May 16, 2006 7:25 pm **Posts:** 138

Ron and I have been playing phone tag and he's not as responsive with email as he used to be so I don't know the scoop but I get the feeling we're in midst of RD.

prairiedog · **Joined:** Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:35 pm **Posts:** 15

crdmike wrote:

Ron and I have been playing phone tag and he's not as responsive with email as he used to be so I don't know the scoop but I get the feeling we're in midst of RD.

RD? does that mean redesign?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I spoke with Ron of Suncoast this afternoon. They have finished their CRD TC product and some of the minor parts they use to build them are on order and arriving next week. Ron said the borrowed CRD he uses to test in shows improvement - it wants to bark the tires at 1700 rpm. He said it has a billet steel cover, 70% heavier clutch material and a redesigned metal stator instead of the factory plastic one.

He said the difference in driving the CRD with the factory TC and theirs is that the factory TC feels rather sloppy and revs much higher before moving off the line. The new TC starts engaging much faster. He has not tested it on a dyno or for numbers. He also mentioned that he has seen the new tranny pump and it is a much better design than the old one, in his opinion, especially in the gear area. His exact words were "its a much, much better design than the old one." He also said that he had not priced the tranny pumps yet from DC, so I guess it's a given that Suncoast doesn't sell them yet.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

Ranger1 wrote:

He also mentioned that he has seen the new tranny pump and it is a much better design than the old one, in his opinion, especially in the gear area. His exact words were "its a much, much better design than the old one." He also said that he had not priced the tranny pumps yet from DC, so I guess it's a given that Suncoast doesn't sell them yet.

That is really good news. Thanks.

valoflyby · **Posted:** Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:33 pm

Can I get a point of clarification?

The "new pump" that Ron was talking about... is that Suncoast's provided pump, or is the new DCX pump a better version that what they had originally installed?

Thanks,

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Jeep/Chryslers new pump design. Suncoast doesn't sell a pump for the 545RFE.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

This has been a good thread. A few folks here deserve a big thanks for pushing this project forward. It's great to see SunCoast step up to the plate. A few comments:

I'm a firm beleive in the "do it once, do it right" ideal. For trannys that means get it rebuild once. Just to drop a tranny and open it up cost a good bit of money, so DON'T skimp on the mods. Most of the time just doing a valve body and TC aren't enough. Granted, most of the folks here aren't after a lot of hp, but having a trans over build should ensure a long trouble free life. I encourage you guys not to think of TC replacements or fixes, but think of the whole tranny. It cost more up front, but it's worth it. At least now, we have (or will have) a good alternative to the crappy stock unit.

It was mentioned earlier a singe disc is good for about 400ft.lbs torque. DTT has some 800hp trucks with a single disc. A single is more that enough to the Libby

I'm suprised ATS took on a CRD project. Obviously that gal had an inside line. ATS's philosophy on autos is to lock the TC as soon as possible and shift thru the gears locked. Their TCs are a little looser that some others but (in the trucks) they will set them up to lock the TC at 25mph as stay locked. I don't like this idea (but that's just me) and their tranny's do need billet shafts to take the stress of all that locked shifting. That may explain some of the above comments about their tranny set up.

Anyway, we will surely keep our CRD beyond the stock tranny life. Thanks goodness there are some options out there now.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:33 pm

Is Suncoast going to make a pump for those who didn't get the new one? it was an optional install and if your trans was okay- then you just got the TC and Flash.

Or does anyone else make a good pump?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon May 07, 2007 7:45 pm

Well, apparently some of us have been buying Suncoast's new TC already.

When my local tranny guru called this past week to inquire about getting one, Ron was already out of stock! Ranger1 had checked a few weeks back, and Ron had stated that he was getting the parts to build some for stock, but he's sold out already.

Ranger1 and myself will be getting this done to ours in the near future, both of us at the local tranny shop I use. Ranger1 should be getting his done this week, mine in a couple of weeks after a trip to TX.

Both of us are opting to forego the heavy duty clutch packs - we're going with the Suncoast TC, the new pump, and the Transgo shift kit. All told plus labor we're looking at roughly $1800.

Aftermarket CRD TC/Tranny/TCM Info

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