That sounds like a good idea to me, too.

_________________
-Vicki-
'02 Renegade - "Forest Ops" Edition Locked, not stock and ready to roll.
ARB bumper, Super Skink Sliders, OME/Rancho lift, Treadwright Wardens 245/75/16, Skid Row engine skid, Mopar Skids, JBA 4.5 UCAs, 4.10s and Detroit lockers Coming soon: new winch, ?????

Alright here are my views. First off I concur with Ted 100%, more rules and regulations is not the answer.

1) You are setting up the potential for even more problems than you look to solve. You have no clearly defined criteria for determining club/non-club runs. You have a person you "believe" is capable of adequate recovery and good leadership. This is not clearly defined, because you have no quantitative criteria to evaluate these members. So if you are going to have certain club members as the criteria for a sanctioned club run, then you need to set up a training/testing program to verify the appointed member's ability to host club runs

All you accomplish by defining official club runs and non-club runs is create more liability for yourself if you don't have hard, fast, written, independently approved requirements. When you set-up members that you "believe" are capable you place all the liability upon yourself, because it was your determination. What credentials and experience do you have to make these decision? If you don't have any way of backing up your determination other than "I went on a few runs with him and he seems trustworthy" than you are just asking to be picked apart in any type of legal case.

Summary, if you are going to even set-up sanctioned/non-sanctioned runs by "approved members that have the capability of responsible trail leadership" then you better have some sort of training/testing/requirements for verification. Decisions based on "I feel" don't stand up very well in any legal case. Also, it would be best to adopt some standard off-road safety course that is developed by trained professional, otherwise you are asking for even more trouble.

2) The wavier is a good idea, but it doesn't clear you on all liability and can add even more liability. People are given waivers all the time before surgery, but it doesn't stop malpractice suites. You can still be held liable for perceived negligence. For example lets say I am spotting a driver, but look away for a second to talk with someone and the driver has an accident. I or the club can still be held responsible due to negligence, despite your waiver.

Thus we now need to develop strict rules and regulations that all members must obey when out on the trails. You need to set up rules that spotters must follow, drivers must follow, by-standers must follow. Thus the more rules you create, the more you need. It has the potential to become so bad that no one will want to four-wheel with the club.

You also can create more liability with the wavier and sanctioned club runs. Using a wavier and sanctioning mechanism you create a perceived body of knowledge and expertise. A new four-wheeler might assume the group/club will take on a certain level or responsibility. Don makes the example that on sanctioned runs there will be members that will be able to provide proper recovery. What if something goes wrong in a recovery? You just said that on sanctioned run there will be proper recovery, but something went wrong because a incorrect type of recovery was performed. Maybe we all need to take 4x4 recovery course.

3) Using such strong terms sanctioned/un-sanctioned or (non-club run) in the titles is going to discourage allot of new four-wheelers from a potential great experience. Try just tacking that tag OFFICIAL on to official club runs and leaving everything else alone.

4) Finally, please remove my name from the sanctioned club name list. First, because I don't agree with the policy and don't want to be associated with it in any way. Second, because I will be leaving Ohio very soon and will not be on LOST Midwest runs. Third, because I don't believe I should be a "sanctioned club sponsor," I have no proper recovery/4x4 training. I am just an amateur 4wheeler.


Personally I think people need to not be afraid to step outside the front door. There is risk in everything. More rules and regulations are not the answer.

If you want to make certain trail rides OFFICAL rides then that is fine. You do not need a reason. Just make them OFFICAL.

Find some trail rides and make them Official. Setting up a calendar is a good idea. Set-up 5-6 (or more/less) run a year as official. Maybe official runs have Henry's t-shirts, decals available, etc.

Trying to make a trail rides sanction because of safety/proper recovery is the wrong step. What safety requirements does the official sanction club ride provide that an non-club run does not? You have individuals sign a wavier that states LOST Midwest is not responsible for anything, but yet you make a promise of proper recovery/safety on official runs. It doesn't make sense.

If you want to make something official, just call it that. Have some rule like it needs to have LOST Midwest decals and t-shirt available for sale. It's your club. Trying to legitimize the official nature by having "members approved of proper recovery techniques" implies a certain level responsibility on the club/members. It is in direct counteraction of your wavier.

After leaving home this weekend for 3 days of 4 wheeling with friends that have wheeled together since the early 70s I see sort of where this started with the MIDWEST LOST President etc. It got me to thinking about this while riding around. They were trying in a way to protect new people coming in and the chapter. I think. I think if the chapter ever puts on an official run then OK list it as such otherwise let the rest of it go, no need to start listing everything on here Official/Unofficial or Sanctioned/Un sanctioned whatever. I think this was getting away from why we buy and play with our toys, it is suppose to be fun and away from the rules and regulations that we all deal with everyday. Yes we still have to obey speedlimits etc but not do away with the enjoyment of crawing up over a pile of rocks. This weekend had 7 of us 6 who have wheeled for years together, and one newby, we all looked out for him (and each other) just like we always did, the way I am sure that people on here do. No one was listed as someone that knew what they were doing and could be trusted, so we all had a great time! So no new rules unless the chapter has a sanctioned run with others coming along other than the LETS WHEEL!!!

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Alright, it took a roundabout way to get here, but I am now looking at this in a real different way.

Here's what I have taken from it:

1. Everyone assumes a run is unofficial unless stated that way. I figured the reverse, that everyone sees a run as official unless it was clear that it wasn't. This is way more logical now that it has been pointed out.

2. Not too many people want the reponisbility on thier shoulders of being an official trail guide. When I made up the list, I did so very lightly, not considering the fact that I was placing a lot of responsibility on folks without asking.

3. Folks from our neck of the woods seem comfortable keeping things informal most of the time, and don't really expect anyone else to take responsibility for thier actions.

So in the end, such a policy is really uneccessary, but what we will take from it is a better events calendar that plans things out longer ahead of time and can give people time to plan and join in.

Sorry this had to start in a way that got folks fired up and talking smack, but I hope that in the end everyone is satisfied that thier opinion was heard and will continue to be in the future.

_________________
2008 Unlimited Rubicon - 3.5" AEV/Nth lift - 35" MT/R with Kevlar - AEV Wheels - York OBA
2008 Patriot - Fuel Saver

Don,

This is just democracy in action. I think we all learned a lot, at least about how each other views the forum, and some of the issues associated with the legal system.

Jason

_________________
+
My opinions & advice are taken at your own risk.
+
2002 Patriot Blue KJ - Coming soon!
2006 Black LJ (Wrangler Unlimited), auto, custom skids, 3.5" Rubicon Express, Aussie D30, Rocker Guards & Cooper AT3 235x85r16
2009 Patriot Blue D2500, 5.7L Hemi, 4x4, Quad Cab
1967 Alberg 37' Masthead rigged Sloop

Yes Thanks Don for posting it so that all of us could post our thoughts on here. It has cleared the air somewhat.

Tom

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

KJ-BOL's comments may return later ....

_________________

The last post from KJ-BOL could be torn apart so many ways its not funny. Seems he has a plan but it will take everything in a new/different direction. All runs to be club runs, interesting thought but would it work, I am thinking not. Have training for proper recovery good idea but this seems to be constantly changing group so would that work...maybe? I just think the whole well I have wheeled with so and so 3 times now and Im on the list is garbage. This is suppose to be a group of friends geting together to enjoy a hobby, along the way if we can help new people enjoy it so be it. In 1972 when I started wheeling I was new and someone showed me the ropes, but we did not have classes, trainings, papers to sign, only officers of LOST to contact we wheeled and if we got into trouble we fiqured a way out all of this before straps etc lots of good old heavy log chains! Seems everyone now a days is getting away from the enjoyment of their hobbies, I for one want the good old days back! You dont need hired trained professionals to show someone where to strap you have people on here who have done it all before. Lets leave it alone unless you the BOARD OF LOST want to have a Sanctioned run otherwise lets go have fun, and maybe learn somehting in the process!

****Edited by pixeldzn to avoid a new flame war.****

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

KJ-BOL was just rambling. I have editied his post away and will let him rewrite it later. What he typed was a stream of thought and is stirring up a fire again that has already been put out and doesn't need to be restoked.

There are no plans to change anything at the moment. If any more come up, we will open them up for discussion just like this. It's much more productive than letting people be upset all the time.

_________________
2008 Unlimited Rubicon - 3.5" AEV/Nth lift - 35" MT/R with Kevlar - AEV Wheels - York OBA
2008 Patriot - Fuel Saver

I was on too much red bull & Caffeine & nicotine last night..... If i have upset anyone, it was not my intention - I truly apologize to everyone.
it goes to show how much I enjoy being a part of this group of friends - friends that enjoy the same hobby as I do and like Don said.... it was all for nothing - I re-read my post (cause i typed it outside the forum and saved it) and now I can see what was wrong with it. I don't think I was trying to stirr the pot more but just simply going back to what it is usually like..... just like tommudd said - let's just go and enjoy....
I've cut back a lot on the Red Bull and it is day now so I'm thinking better.....
Again.... for those who may have read my post last night and took offense on it, my apologies - not my intention whatsoever.

Henry

_________________

Red Bull is HIGHLY addicting!!

I think I speak for others as well as myself when I say that I would never do anything to further bring problems and or issues to L.O.S.T. or the midwest clan while out on a run....official or not. I know that I am COMPLETELY responsible for my actions out on the trail. I am a newb...those that know me know that I am new to this but I enjoy it VERY much and am learning a lot. I just want to thank you all for being able to unite with my fellow midwest liberty owners. I hope that we can keep this group going strong and hopefully more trips/group get- togethers will be planned in the future.

Henry...I have alot of respect for you as a member of L.O.S.T. and as a wheeler. Your knowledge and spotting skills at the run I attended last fall proved that you are definitly one to trust. I admired the way you handled the group and the lead. Two-Thumbs up as a trail guide/leader.

_________________
02' Frankenlifted White Sport on 31" TrXus M/Ts

89' 2 Dr. Khaki XJ- Waggy 44's, 4.88s, 35's, 3-link on 5.5" coils.

OK I have been asked to curb my posts and thoughts, maybe I do rant some but when things are being done or said that are wrong I have never been able to keep my mouth shut. I think that from now on the officers of this forum, if they want to run it as they say, need to read Roberts Rules of Order and since they do operate in Ohio also understand the Sunshine Laws. I get tired of hearing we want to, he wants to from Chicago land, if you want to make this a stronger organization incude everyone, and I thank Mr. President for doing so in this case.

THE END!!

and they all say Thank GOD!!

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

On that note, I am closing this thread. Thanks for everyone's input.

_________________
2008 Unlimited Rubicon - 3.5" AEV/Nth lift - 35" MT/R with Kevlar - AEV Wheels - York OBA
2008 Patriot - Fuel Saver