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 Post subject: Any Biodiesel Homebrewers?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:11 am 
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I have a lot of interest in starting up a Biodiesel co-op in the Ann Arbor Michigan area. Anyone interested?

Also, are there any practicing biodiesel hombrewers on the site. I would be interested in your experience. What process do you use, and what analysis if any do you do prior to putting it in the tank.

Thanks,

Kevin

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:45 am 
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I have been involved with brewing for about 2 ½ years now. Originally had the high dollar FuelMeister II but the valves keep giving us trouble. Now we have three converted electric hot water heaters with black iron piping / valves. We do the COMPLETE titration test on EVERY batch of WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) prior to brewing and we wash at least twice. The advantage we have is a good supply of free WVO and a huge race car shop where we can put all our equipment, storage for the WVO / refined B-100 and safe places for the methanol and KOH (potassium hydroxide). We brew in excess of 60 gallons a day after the final wash and it provides fuel for two CRD’s, 3 Sprinters and various diesel pickup tow vehicles. WE DO NOT AND NEVER WILL SELL FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION (too many regulations for us to follow).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:33 am 
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Bubba wrote:
I have been involved with brewing for about 2 ½ years now. Originally had the high dollar FuelMeister II but the valves keep giving us trouble. Now we have three converted electric hot water heaters with black iron piping / valves. We do the COMPLETE titration test on EVERY batch of WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) prior to brewing and we wash at least twice. The advantage we have is a good supply of free WVO and a huge race car shop where we can put all our equipment, storage for the WVO / refined B-100 and safe places for the methanol and KOH (potassium hydroxide). We brew in excess of 60 gallons a day after the final wash and it provides fuel for two CRD’s, 3 Sprinters and various diesel pickup tow vehicles. WE DO NOT AND NEVER WILL SELL FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION (too many regulations for us to follow).


Care to share some pics of your setup?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:41 am 
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I have been making my own B100 for about a year now, all i can say is the jeep loves it!

Im running the "appleseed processer" as well (water heater) I can make about 35 gal/wk and my cost per gallon is only $0.13!!!!


if you would like mor info this is the site i built mine from:

http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/

pluse learned most of my 'how to" from here as well. feel free to askme any quest you may have.

Good Luck!

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 Post subject: Caution.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:52 am 
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Obviously, I'm a big fan of Biodiesel. And I'm a big fan of independence and do-things yourself.

However, smarter people than me have said time and time again, these CRD run at HIGH pressures and temps, which leaves very little room for error. Personally, I only run commercially produced, ASTM tested biodiesel, and recommend that others also do the same on the CRD especially if you are going to run 100%. It sounds like Bubba's group has some experience and an strong attention to testing. That's the kind of operation you want if you are going to run 100%.

Even the commercial batches come in off-spec once and a while (I'm friends with the distributor). So you can imagine how hard it its to keep on-spec doing it youself in small batches.

Just a word of caution because I truly love my CRD. Otherwise, enjoy the freedom from price-gouging petroleum companies, overseas wackos, and stink!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:58 am 
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thanks for the the heads up...

i think im doing something right, ive got 48K+ on the jeep 37K of which are B-100 miles. I did send a sample to Houston for testing and i passed with an ASTM rating. (but that was $500 to do!!!)

Im also lucky in that i have one oil source that has very good oil. that they only use it 7-10 a day then they drain it, (high class jap place) I filter to 1.0 micron as im filling the heater and it flows just as fast as if was new, never used oil.

as far as making 25 gal i use 5 gal of methanol and 641 grams of Lye (KaOH) bring the oil up to 130 deg, mix in Methoxide blend for 1 hour let it set for 10 hours, drain off my 5 gal of glycerin (use it for soap, parts cleaner, drain cleaner, or in the garden) pour the bio into a wash tank, mist it with H2O for 4 hours repeat 3 times, then using a fish air pump i bubble it for 4 hours, then drain into a 0.05 micron filter which gets pumped right into my Jeep!

easy!

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Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:33 pm 
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Biodiesel-Processor ... dZViewItem

What do you guys think about something like this. Over priced?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:49 pm 
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dont do it!!!!

wast of $$$$$

mine only cost >$500!!! and one of the most imporant steps is to HEAT the OIL... The "pro" made ones dont do it. also if you Goggle fuel miser fires or BioDiesel fires you will see a lot of the $1500 ones burning down due to cheep plastic.

a waterheater is made to last a very long time, it already has all of the plumong you need, (read: NO MODS!!!) and it really is that easy to make. and the shopping list is there on the web link i posted.

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SAMCO SPORT Hoses
Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
Fumoto Drain Valve
EGR replaced at 50K
in service 8/31/04
Sold 7/21/10 125k miles
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:51 pm 
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so water heater is a better deal, I'll have to look into it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:10 pm 
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BCool wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Biodiesel-Processor-50g-batch-size-Cyclindroconical_W0QQitemZ260105609298QQihZ016QQcategoryZ26261QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What do you guys think about something like this. Over priced?


Looks like a nice product. The overpriced depends on how much your time and energy are worth to you. Here's the US plastics site for those vessels:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=20726&product%5Fid=3863

If it's a good product and the seller really does think that it's worth that, then he might be willing to sell instructions/parts lists for some fractional amount. I'd personally like to setup something like that but a grand+ for startup is more than I could justify for what would start as a hobby. I'd also much prefer to assemble it myself. After all, that's the best way to learn.

If you're a Co-Op, then it would be a quick way to get you up and running till you build a more permanent system designed as you want it (and you could probably re-sell the system to someone else it it's kept clean and in good repair).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:31 pm 
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skywarn wrote:
thanks for the the heads up...

i think im doing something right, ive got 48K+ on the jeep 37K of which are B-100 miles. I did send a sample to Houston for testing and i passed with an ASTM rating. (but that was $500 to do!!!)

Im also lucky in that i have one oil source that has very good oil. that they only use it 7-10 a day then they drain it, (high class jap place) I filter to 1.0 micron as im filling the heater and it flows just as fast as if was new, never used oil.

as far as making 25 gal i use 5 gal of methanol and 641 grams of Lye (KaOH) bring the oil up to 130 deg, mix in Methoxide blend for 1 hour let it set for 10 hours, drain off my 5 gal of glycerin (use it for soap, parts cleaner, drain cleaner, or in the garden) pour the bio into a wash tank, mist it with H2O for 4 hours repeat 3 times, then using a fish air pump i bubble it for 4 hours, then drain into a 0.05 micron filter which gets pumped right into my Jeep!

easy!


Skywarn, That sounds very lean on the catalyst. It looks like you're using about 6.8g/l of KOH, regardless of how the oil titrates? If so, I'm very surprised that you passed ASTM spec., and you may be aware that there is a new, tighter ASTM spec. The recommended base amount of catalyst is 7g/l of 100% purity KOH, plus whatever your titration indicates you should be using. I actually recommend a bit more than that as a base amount: 8g/l. All else being equal, you can push the reaction to higher completion with more catalyst which then should come out in the wash. Without sufficient catalyst, you will end up with lots of mono-, di- and triglycerides remaining in your fuel, which may or may not be detrimental to the engine/fuel pump in the long run.

FYI to everyone else, testing the fuel after processing is also important, and you probably don't always have to have it tested to ASTM spec: there are tests such as the PhLip test, etc. that help you evaluate the quality of your fuel. This is very different from the initial titration test of the vegetable oil. But when you purchase BD, make sure that the manufacturer tests using the ASTM method in an independent lab.

Making good quality biodiesel is not trivial. A local newspaper quoted one person as saying "If you can bake a cake, you can make biodiesel." My response would be, sure, if you can bake a cake you can make questionable-quality biodiesel while at the same time risk methanol poisoning or other hazards not usually associated with cake baking. The risks of running poor fuel in my Unimog's fuel system are minimal...I could run straight veggie oil in it. But in a high-pressure CRD system, having the wrong contaminants in the fuel could mean that things start failing at 40k miles.

As for the FoolMeister-type processors, I'd stay away from them: hot liquids containing caustics and methanol in large plastic containers at the limits of their temp rating seems inadvisable. For an out-of-box setup, the BioPro series appears well made.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:03 pm 
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Grei..

many good points.. ill will add one more...

i bought my car so i could do this, after i got started... i was hating life!!! i messed up so many batches... in which here is my point...

if you have a batch go bad you looking a t a min of 25 gal to dump... city drain could take it but its not advised, if you on a septic tank forget it! you would kill every good living think in there and have much bigger problems...

storage...

bio d is safe to store just if you were storeing 25 gal of your fav soda... big mess to clean up IF something happens but no big prob.

Methonal..... FLASH POINT 75 DEG..... and having 55 gallons sitting around.... well nuff said.

KoAH.... yep it burns.... have you seen the movie "fight Club"? that part is true... (ok not THAT bad but it does burn..)

Methoxide (metho + KoAH).... bad stuff, it gets really hot when you mix it, puts off a light smoke due to the heat which is so bad for you in so many ways...

so the point is, its easy and cheep to make, its not something you start then decide you not going to do, you must have the TIME and place to do it. and know you will have a spill at some point. do you have pets, kids?? how are they with chems sitting aound?

for the startters i would go full force with the "Dr Pepper" method. here is the link. at least you can make 10 oz tonight and see what it looks like!

http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/makingasmallbatch/

in fact rerad this site for all the info one would need.
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org

here is the "big" fourm (like this one)
http://www.forums.biodieselnow.com/

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SAMCO SPORT Hoses
Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
Fumoto Drain Valve
EGR replaced at 50K
in service 8/31/04
Sold 7/21/10 125k miles
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:23 pm 
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Is there no way to re-process a "bad" batch?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm 
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Jeger wrote:
Is there no way to re-process a "bad" batch?


Yes. There is some loss in yield, typically, because it is hard to tell how bad it is, among other things. But it is fairly simple. The tricky part is in telling that you have a bad batch in the first place, and often in telling why. Things can go wrong for different reasons, but usually it is under-reacted, after which reprocessing is possible. You add a bit of methanol and catalyst, and go.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:28 pm 
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Hi,

........... That's why I plan on running wvo in a two tank system. Forget all the processing.

Like it or not, modern diesels were designed to run on #2 fuel oil. IF we use a different feed stock, we have to make it behave like #2. Either change the feed stock [make bio-d] or change fuel delivery [use two tank wvo conversion] to make the oil behave like #2.

The libby has little space for a 2 tank wvo conversion. However, I haven't given up on converting it to wvo. Making bio-d is a time consuming process that you need to be prepared to do as skywarn has pointed out.

wvo or bio-d use - either way. NO war required.

Dad

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:34 pm 
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for a two tank system, The Grease Car . Com site has a CRD WVO tank you can put in your "trunk" and is set up as a false bottem look.

i know 4 people who are running this system in there truck. From what ive heard the customer support is very good. and the product is built very well.

but then we are back to the $$$ part... to convert to a duel tank sys your looking at $3,500!! PLUS, you have to make a mental note to start the car on Diesel, let tank #2 heat up to the 140 deg mark, switch tanks to WVO tank... drive...then when you get with in 5 min of where your going, switch back to diesel tank, purge WVO fuel lines, then turn car off.... and of you forget to switch tanks on a 70deg day... forget it... better get out the hair dryer.... :shock:

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05 CRD
3" Rough Country Lift
SAMCO SPORT Hoses
Magnaflow Muffler (12226)
CAT 2 Fuel Filter
Fumoto Drain Valve
EGR replaced at 50K
in service 8/31/04
Sold 7/21/10 125k miles
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:26 pm 
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DadsDiesel wrote:
Hi,

........... That's why I plan on running wvo in a two tank system. Forget all the processing.

Like it or not, modern diesels were designed to run on #2 fuel oil. IF we use a different feed stock, we have to make it behave like #2. Either change the feed stock [make bio-d] or change fuel delivery [use two tank wvo conversion] to make the oil behave like #2.

The libby has little space for a 2 tank wvo conversion. However, I haven't given up on converting it to wvo. Making bio-d is a time consuming process that you need to be prepared to do as skywarn has pointed out.

wvo or bio-d use - either way. NO war required.

Dad


Dad,

I think this misses some important points. There is a very substantial difference in fuel between heated WVO and unheated biodiesel. For starters, viscosity. If your pump is used to seeing low viscosity fuel like petro, even the higher viscosity of biodiesel is a bit of a stretch. WVO is much more viscous still, even when heated. Then there are the glycerides, which from what I understand flocculate under extreme pressures. WVO is also more prone to polymerization. Then there's the acidity in the form of free fatty acids, which are neutralized in the making of biodiesel (hence the need to titrate to determine the amount of catalyst to use).

Again, my Unimog could run WVO, with it's 1983 IDI heavy duty Bosch fuel system. But I would not put that in my Jeep CRD. Even under-reacted biodiesel (which has some glycerides, but isn't ALL glycerides) would be easier on it than WVO. I know there are people running SVO systems in newer vehicles, but I've heard many horror stories as a result. The horror stories I've heard associated with biodiesel are typically caused by low-grade commercial fuel in a poorly regulated market. That is changing, thank God.

But hey, it's your truck.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:04 pm 
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DadsDiesel wrote:
Hi,

........... That's why I plan on running wvo in a two tank system. Forget all the processing.

Like it or not, modern diesels were designed to run on #2 fuel oil. IF we use a different feed stock, we have to make it behave like #2. Either change the feed stock [make bio-d] or change fuel delivery [use two tank wvo conversion] to make the oil behave like #2.

Dad


Dad, have you found a way to account for the behavior of the electronic fuel injectors and the much more viscous veggie oil? I've seen MANY (albeit unsubstantiated) oppinions that newer common-rail designs are not well suited to WVO/SVO.

Dan

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:58 pm 
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do you have to wash the bio after seperating the glycerin by product? What do you do with all that dirty water after washing?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:40 pm 
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BCool wrote:
do you have to wash the bio after seperating the glycerin by product? What do you do with all that dirty water after washing?


Yes, you typically need to wash the fuel somehow once the glycerine is removed, because there may be contaminants such as ions from the catalyst, free glycerides, soaps (making soap is a side reaction, particularly if the oil has any water in it...and it will once you add the methanol because water is a side reaction of creating the esters...it's complex), and so forth. If you have an old diesel engine like a mid-80's Mercedes, just run it and you'll probably be fine for a very long time. If you have a picky fuel system, you'll want to clean these contaminants out somehow. There are several methods for doing so without water, but they are also nontrivial.

Disposal of the wash water is one difficulty...you also have to dispose of the glycerine properly. With methanol in is, it can be considered hazardous waste. The waste water disposal depends largely on which catalyst is used. Sodium hydroxide is not terribly good for most living things. Potassium hydroxide is a fertilizer.

Another factor that hasn't been discussed yet is time: how valuable is yours? Let's say that you can brew 40 gallons of oil at a time (assuming you have a 60 gallon water heater reactor that is already completely set up and ready to go...otherwise, add 2 days). If you have a good collection system, you'll spend half an hour or so getting the oil. It takes me about 3 hours to dewater the oil, then I wait another couple of hours while it comes back down to reaction temperature (130+F). Meanwhile, I titrate; 15 minutes or so. Then I transfer the oil into the reactor, and measure the quantity of oil so I know how much reactants to put in: 15 minutes. Then I mix the methoxide: 15 minutes. Then I start the reactor and pull in the methoxide: 10 minutes. Then I let the reactor run...that time will vary greatly according to how much water is in the oil, how good your mixing is, etc.: 1-3 hours, including time to pull samples for quality testing. Then you wait from 1-24 hours while the glycerine settles out, and drain that off...but that gets tricky at the interface: 30 minutes or so. Then you start washing. People who water wash often have 3 washes, each about an hour long or so, but this time can vary greatly, too.

Some of this is admittedly "start it and walk away" time, but a lot of it isn't if you're smart. For one thing, imagine having 50 gallons of methanol-contaminated oil spewing out of the system and into your garage/shop/kitchen/whereveryouhaveit. So you may want to stick around to make sure that everything goes well. All in all, I figure I spend about 6 hours per batch of dedicated on-site time to get really good fuel that I know is better than what comes out of a pump. That figure would stay the same no matter how large your batch is, as long as you scale the reactor, mixer, wash system, etc. So it pays to go big. If you only make 40 gallons at a time, say that's $120 worth of fuel. Is your time worth $20/hour? And that doesn't include the costs of energy, reactants, etc. So for this to be worthwhile, I think that most brewers need to have something other than cheap fuel in mind. The environment is certainly a good cause!

I don't want to discourage anyone from trying this: I just want to be realistic. There are lots of used reactors being sold by people who thought it was "like baking a cake" but found out the hard way that it isn't. I'd like to keep people from damaging a perfectly good vehicle or hurting themselves, and help them make informed choices. Supporting a commercial brewer is arguably an even better way of helping the environment in this capitalist society.

By the way, the days of being able to get free waste oil from restaurants are likely to be over soon. Rendering companies, who formerly charged restaurants for the privilege of having their oil removed, finally have gotten a clue that they're being undercut by home brewers of biodiesel and people running SVO. In many parts of the country, the rendering companies now either do this for free or pay a bit for the oil. In some parts of the country, the rendering companies have links to organized crime, and they are particularly sensitive to having private parties horn in on their territory.

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