Oil Company Biodiesel Politics

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:52 pm

For the biodiesel supporters, might want to check out this article on the NBB website.

http://nbb.grassroots.com/07Releases/renewable_diesel/

Basically, by exploiting a loophole in the '05 Energy Policy Act, an oil company can qualify for the same subsidies and tax credits as an independent biodiesel producer simply by mixing in some vegetable oil with the petroleum feedstock at their existing refineries.

Gawd, as if these guys weren't making enough money already. :roll:

AZScout · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:56 pm

It's probably a setup for a way to get rid of all independent biodiesel producers...cynic, I know, but it wouldn't surprise me. :roll:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:01 pm

Another article from the NBB site by Bloomberg, on the same subject.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=axUrtn.WhHsw

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:05 pm

AZScout wrote:

It's probably a setup for a way to get rid of all independent biodiesel producers...cynic, I know, but it wouldn't surprise me. :roll:

After reading both articles, I'd say it has that in mind, along with sucking up some more free money from the government.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:31 pm

I know this might soubd strange, but I actually think there might be some importance to widening the definitions to allow tax incentives to other "bio" fuels and artificial fuels. This will encourage start-up companies to more quickly exploit emerging research.

For instance, I personally work on research using fairly raw oils (processed, but not spec Biodiesel) blended with No. 2 for home heating furnace use. Won't work in engines, but is fine in furnaces AND makes the final fuel cheaper than straight petroleum (unlike biodiesel). Sounds like a great product? Sure, but without tax incenetives, who is going to lay out the money to make the stuff? And getting tax incentives takes YEARS...

However, this exact situation seems a bit like pilfering. Still, the NBB is kinda draconian and really territorial about these kind of tax incentives...in a way that reminds you of petroleum companies and other conglomerates. The NBB wants us to think that ONLY Biodiesel (ASTM Spec, soy based) is the only diesel substitute out there...and that just isn't what is in the cards for the future.

The NBB is doing good things, too, it isn't there primary mission to stiffle emerging technology. There are there to promote biodiesel, even to the extent of protecting biodiesel "turf". Sometimes, however, when you get as big as the big, bad guys....you start to sound like the big, bad guys!

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

The problem is there really isn't a 'good guy' here. One one side you have huge conglomerates such as Shell and BP. On the other side you have a different set of huge conglomerates, namely Archer-Daniels Midland and Monosato. There isn't a 'little guy' to root for at this point.

In my opinion, the money being spent needs to be spent on R&D, not subsidies. Current generation biofuels make little sense and may do more harm than help, but technologies like cellulose ethanol and algae based biodiesel offer the potential to actually solve our problems without destroying natural habitat and using vast quantities of drinking water.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

Reflex wrote:

The problem is there really isn't a 'good guy' here. One one side you have huge conglomerates such as Shell and BP. On the other side you have a different set of huge conglomerates, namely Archer-Daniels Midland and Monosato. There isn't a 'little guy' to root for at this point.

In my opinion, the money being spent needs to be spent on R&D, not subsidies. Current generation biofuels make little sense and may do more harm than help, but technologies like cellulose ethanol and algae based biodiesel offer the potential to actually solve our problems without destroying natural habitat and using vast quantities of drinking water.

Amen. If I have to hear any more from Ford about "corn" based ethanol being the future-- I am going to puke. We need better tech. Not just for fuels, but for solar and wind as well. That is where the money should be going.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:40 am

Pablo wrote:

Reflex wrote:

The problem is there really isn't a 'good guy' here. One one side you have huge conglomerates such as Shell and BP. On the other side you have a different set of huge conglomerates, namely Archer-Daniels Midland and Monosato. There isn't a 'little guy' to root for at this point.

In my opinion, the money being spent needs to be spent on R&D, not subsidies. Current generation biofuels make little sense and may do more harm than help, but technologies like cellulose ethanol and algae based biodiesel offer the potential to actually solve our problems without destroying natural habitat and using vast quantities of drinking water.

Amen. If I have to hear any more from Ford about "corn" based ethanol being the future-- I am going to puke. We need better tech. Not just for fuels, but for solar and wind as well. That is where the money should be going.

We actually have something like that started up here. A certain % of energy has to come from renewable energy. We have a huge wind farm out east of Ft. Collins and new bio plants are going in out east near my old stomping ground of Yuma, CO.

dgeist · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:22 am

Reflex wrote:

In my opinion, the money being spent needs to be spent on R&D, not subsidies. Current generation biofuels make little sense and may do more harm than help, but technologies like cellulose ethanol and algae based biodiesel offer the potential to actually solve our problems without destroying natural habitat and using vast quantities of drinking water.

Hooray for Algae

Seriously, I'd LOVE to find anybody that isn't either at the university of New Hampshire/MIT or on a private ranch in South Africa that knows anything about Algae-based bio production. It just seems so logical and yet so hard to find information on. I wonder if my neighbor back home with the algae covering their above-ground pool had a goldmine and didn't even know it...

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:05 am

Well after the court decision on April 2nd, even the EPA can be sued for not actively pursuing pollutant producing products and companies. What this means is that fines and complications for not adhering to guidlines will be more than a slap on the wrist. I hope that this does not "hinder" the development of small diesels for passnger cars and trucks by over reacting by some. It will open the doors for more nuclear power plants, solar power, ect.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

dgeist wrote:

Reflex wrote:

In my opinion, the money being spent needs to be spent on R&D, not subsidies. Current generation biofuels make little sense and may do more harm than help, but technologies like cellulose ethanol and algae based biodiesel offer the potential to actually solve our problems without destroying natural habitat and using vast quantities of drinking water.

Hooray for Algae

Seriously, I'd LOVE to find anybody that isn't either at the university of New Hampshire/MIT or on a private ranch in South Africa that knows anything about Algae-based bio production. It just seems so logical and yet so hard to find information on. I wonder if my neighbor back home with the algae covering their above-ground pool had a goldmine and didn't even know it...

The real beauty of algae is that it eats CO2 like crazy, and can fairly easily be placed in smokestacks and other CO2 emitting locations to reduce such emissions.

GilaMonster · **Posted:** Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:49 pm

dgeist wrote:

Reflex wrote:

In my opinion, the money being spent needs to be spent on R&D, not subsidies. Current generation biofuels make little sense and may do more harm than help, but technologies like cellulose ethanol and algae based biodiesel offer the potential to actually solve our problems without destroying natural habitat and using vast quantities of drinking water.

Hooray for Algae

Seriously, I'd LOVE to find anybody that isn't either at the university of New Hampshire/MIT or on a private ranch in South Africa that knows anything about Algae-based bio production. It just seems so logical and yet so hard to find information on. I wonder if my neighbor back home with the algae covering their above-ground pool had a goldmine and didn't even know it...

There is an effort here in Arizona:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287313/
http://www.biofuelsjournal.com/articles/PetroSun_to_Commence_Field_Testing_for_Algae_Based_Biodiesel_Production_in_Arizona______12_05_2006-39620.html

When enzyme technology becomes really affordable, biodiesel production from algae based stock may become a reality for common consumers.

valkraider · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:57 am

+1 on the HOORAY FOR ALGAE.

It is the future of biofuels.

+1 on the MEGA CORPORATIONS SUCK

They are destroying America. A good example is the recent pet food problems. If we had 50 American plants each making food locally for more regional distribution, and made by American workers we never would have had such a wide scale problem.

There is a serious issue with the supply chain when a single plant that is outside of our regulation can take out more than 100 brands of pet food..

We need to move back to smaller more local and regional production models. Return jobs to our localities. Reduce transportation requirements. Give the people who make the products a vested interest in the products they produce.

And return to communities that have real variety and unique traits. (What is the point of traveling anymore if all of the restaurants, stores, and coffee shops are the same across the whole country? Woo Hoo - Starbucks is the same in Albany New York as it is in Portland Oregon. Yay, I can eat at a Applebees in California and have the exact same experience as an Applebees in Georgia. Great. Wonderful. NOT )

Am I rambling now? Sorry...

Uhmm, where were we. Uh, Yeah - we have a real opportunity with biofuels to decentralize our fuel production infrastructure. Make it more resistant to natural catastrophes, weather, or terrorism.

Time to step up for the little guy.

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

The biggest thing hindering the biofuels nowadays is BIG OIL period...

Ethanol is a joke, especially when produced using corn. Did you know that at least one gallon of oil goes into producing one gallon of ethanol in America currently? Sure the BIG OIL companies will sell you corn ethanol and make a big deal of it along with domestic automakers, they're all making double the profit! Farmers and their lobbyists are certainly benefitting as well, but the America consumer doesn't :roll:

Ethanol production and distribution is starting to rear is ugly financial head after years of heavy government subsidies that are starting to bust and drive up the consumer price to where there are no benefits of buying E-85 or even 10% ethanol blended gasoline.

Hemp is the absolute most efficient product to use in the creation of ethanol and biodiesel. It creates more fuel per capita and the fuel that is created has more energy content than that of other means of production. But even industrial hemp is illegal in America, although it is becoming a serious cash crop in places like Canada and throughout Europe. But hemp = EEEEEEVIL in ultra-conservative America :roll:

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

valkraider wrote:

+1 on the HOORAY FOR ALGAE.
...

+1 on the MEGA CORPORATIONS SUCK...

They are destroying America. A good example is the recent pet food problems. If we had 50 American plants each making food locally for more regional distribution, and made by American workers we never would have had such a wide scale problem.

There is a serious issue with the supply chain when a single plant that is outside of our regulation can take out more than 100 brands of pet food...

Remember the Spinach fiasco? Three different brands of Spinach with e-colli... from one packaging house that packages like 80% of the Spinach in this country. Economies of scale are getting a little bit silly. I try to frequent the little guy when I can, but in new growth areas, it is hard. Everything is a big box store and every new shopping center is built by a major developer who sells space to other corporations.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Hero wrote:

The biggest thing hindering the biofuels nowadays is BIG OIL period...

Not really true. The oil corporations profit on the distribution of oil products, not on the production of them. Whether the product distributed is gasoline or diesel manufactured from middle eastern oil or ethanol and BD made from plants is irrelevant, they own the distribution infrastructure and will profit the same either way. This is a really common misconception, but if you look into who actually owns the oil fields, it is mostly governments that partner with oil corporations for extraction. They don't own the oil themselves, and frequently lose thier investments due to coups and nationalization of resources in nations.

Quote:

Ethanol is a joke, especially when produced using corn. Did you know that at least one gallon of oil goes into producing one gallon of ethanol in America currently? Sure the BIG OIL companies will sell you corn ethanol and make a big deal of it along with domestic automakers, they're all making double the profit! Farmers and their lobbyists are certainly benefitting as well, but the America consumer doesn't :roll:

Ethanol production and distribution is starting to rear is ugly financial head after years of heavy government subsidies that are starting to bust and drive up the consumer price to where there are no benefits of buying E-85 or even 10% ethanol blended gasoline.

This is true, as much or more energy is typically expended in ethanol and even BD production as is gained by burning them. Furthermore the water needed for thier production is tremendous(especially with ethanol) and the cropland required were we to expand our usage would mean major loss of natural habitat, in Brazil and southeast Asia the loss of forests are simply staggering.

Quote:

Hemp is the absolute most efficient product to use in the creation of ethanol and biodiesel. It creates more fuel per capita and the fuel that is created has more energy content than that of other means of production. But even industrial hemp is illegal in America, although it is becoming a serious cash crop in places like Canada and throughout Europe. But hemp = EEEEEEVIL in ultra-conservative America :roll:

I have never heard of hemp as a good energy source, however I highly doubt its competitive with switchgrass or miscanthus, both of which provide many times the energy density of corn or even sugar cane. The list is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fu ... production

chadhargis · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:01 am

Quote:

Hemp is the absolute most efficient product to use in the creation of ethanol and biodiesel.

Humm...I can grow my own fuel...that's it!

"Ah, yeah officer, I'm growing bio diesel. That smell? I don't know what that is? I'm just burning off some old plants bit by bit in this little pipe here." :lol:

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

Reflex wrote:

I have never heard of hemp as a good energy source, however I highly doubt its competitive with switchgrass or miscanthus, both of which provide many times the energy density of corn or even sugar cane. The list is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fu ... production

Perhaps I should have said hemp oil instead of hemp in and of itself. I've read several scientific studies that show hemp oil as being the absolute best means of producing ethanol and biodiesel out of an currently founded way of production and usage. I would have to do some digging to site those facts, forgive me for not being on the spot with the info at this time.

He is a site that talks about hemp based fuels, yes it is a hard advocate site. At the same time, any additional means of biofuel prodution is not to be overlooked (even if it is illegal currently).

http://www.hempcar.org/biofacts.shtml

IMHO, another large factor going against biodiesel specifically is the automotive industry. The primary focus nowadays is the creation of diesel systems which reduce emmissions of particulate matter and NOx. Well considering that BD creates no sulphuric emmissions, why not create engine and fuel systems which can fully accept BD while eliminating particulate emission reducers and focus on adding emission control systems for NOx (the real problem) in their place.

At this time, new age diesel tech is being created under the manufacturer's regulation that only small BD blends can be used in their engines. As long as diesel system manufacturers continue to disallow their products to use higher amounts of BD if not staight BD, then the progress of the fuel will never come full circle...

chadhargis · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:24 pm

I'm very interested in biodiesel. I have a few stations in my area that sell mostly B20. Surprisingly, it is 10 cents cheaper per gallon that petro diesel. The place I filled up last had a petro diesel pump right across from the biodiesel pump. Why would anyone put petro diesel in their tank and pay more to do it?

Isn't biodiesel supposed to be better for your engine. I know it is more environmentally friendly, but lets face it, I'm driving a small SUV. If I wanted to be bio friendly I'd be driving a hybrid or something. If biodiesel is better for the engine, and better for the environment, and costs less (in my case), then why in heavens name are we still using 100% petro diesel?? Just doesn't make sense to me.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:34 pm

chadhargis wrote:

I'm very interested in biodiesel. I have a few stations in my area that sell mostly B20. Surprisingly, it is 10 cents cheaper per gallon that petro diesel. The place I filled up last had a petro diesel pump right across from the biodiesel pump. Why would anyone put petro diesel in their tank and pay more to do it?

Isn't biodiesel supposed to be better for your engine. I know it is more environmentally friendly, but lets face it, I'm driving a small SUV. If I wanted to be bio friendly I'd be driving a hybrid or something. If biodiesel is better for the engine, and better for the environment, and costs less (in my case), then why in heavens name are we still using 100% petro diesel?? Just doesn't make sense to me.

The sad thing here is it is the same price as D2. I think they are gougers.

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