Shudder after WOT Fix

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 7:46 am

When the wife drove the Jeep into the garage yesterday (I was in the garage at the work bench) it just seem so much quiter and I didn't hear the Jeep until it got beside the open windows of the garage as it came down the drive way. Our garage is on the backside of the house and opens to the rear, the drive-way goes along the house and garage. Thing is I used to here the CRD as soon as it came into the sub-division while watching TV in the living room, yesterday I was in the garage and no TV or radio was on to hide the approach. I heard the Jeep on the gravel before I heard the engine, maybe the pic will help visualize the garage. I can't wait till she fires it up this morning when she leaves, maybe I was just not paying enough attention to the world around me yesterday.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:01 am

That is quite a "boulder field" you must negotiate everyday...no wonder you have a 4x4 :wink:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:10 am

Hey the chat (rock) was heck of a lot cheaper then concrete or blacktop for the driveway. :wink:

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 8:11 am

Nice place O-N. I miss all that green. We are still brown and white here.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 9:38 am

BVCRD wrote:

Nice place O-N. I miss all that green. We are still brown and white here.

This pic is about 4 years old, but it's still looks the same. It's all green here now, and a/c is running.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 9:56 am

oldnavy wrote:

BVCRD wrote:

Nice place O-N. I miss all that green. We are still brown and white here.

This pic is about 4 years old, but it's still looks the same. It's all green here now, and a/c is running.

We are just now staying in the 30's at night. Nice during the day though. 71 yesterday. Mama goes up to 10,200 feet everyday and it is still winter up there.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 11:00 am

It's 74 F ambient here and I just took a slow ride with the fuel heater plugged in. It was about 4 miles, not going over 35 mph. I then took some temperature readings using my IR thermometer. Fuel filter was 101 degrees. Fuel filter bracket where the heater is was 94 degrees and the fuel lines were, in 90 degres and out 98 degrees. The ABS pump assemblie in the same area as the EGR FCV was 88F. That would kind of indicate the egr assemblie is not causing the heat in the filter. The plastic engine cover was 111F. I've just unplugged the heater and will see what happens. Will I get a CEL? I've not gotten F31 yet so I can't clear codes myself.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 12:23 pm

oldnavy wrote:

When the wife drove the Jeep into the garage yesterday (I was in the garage at the work bench) it just seem so much quiter and I didn't hear the Jeep ..... I can't wait till she fires it up this morning when she leaves, maybe I was just not paying enough attention to the world around me yesterday.

Well, there could be a simple reason: different fuel. Remember that biodiesel definitely quites the motor, maybe they increased you biodiesel percentage recently with the warm weather.

... Or it could be the filter, seems a stretch...

....Or it could be that all of us are getting pretty old and the hearing is going!!! :lol:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 1:11 pm

BiodieselJeep.com wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

When the wife drove the Jeep into the garage yesterday (I was in the garage at the work bench) it just seem so much quiter and I didn't hear the Jeep ..... I can't wait till she fires it up this morning when she leaves, maybe I was just not paying enough attention to the world around me yesterday.

Well, there could be a simple reason: different fuel. Remember that biodiesel definitely quites the motor, maybe they increased you biodiesel percentage recently with the warm weather.

... Or it could be the filter, seems a stretch...

....Or it could be that all of us are getting pretty old and the hearing is going!!! :lol:

I haven't used biodiesel since switching to ULSD, so it is not that unless the BP station has started selling bioD.

I agree the filter seems a stretch, but I am not ruling it out just yet.

I not going to comment on aging, I am just 10 years younger then my dad was when he passed away.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Will I get a CEL? I've not gotten F31 yet so I can't clear codes myself.

Yes, it will set a code saying the voltage to the fuel heater is high, but it clears in 5 or 6 drive cycles.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 11:32 pm

Diesel fuel is also a coolant for your fuel system. The extemely hot fuel than is circulated back to your tank to start all over again. I would expect your filter to be hotter as outside temps get hotter. Your pressurized fuel goes through an engine operating at 180 degrees. 110 is far from too hot imho.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2007 11:36 pm

Just as another data point, driving around in stop and go for 1/2 an hour in 65F weather, the fuel filter measured about 90F with my non-contact thermometer when I pulled into the garage.

CHessMaster · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2007 1:01 am

FWIW, here is my recent experience.

I disconnected the heater connector, and noticed it is still wet with fuel and starting to get a little crispy (burned) in one of the connector cavity's.

Anyway, I drive about 30 miles and leave the Jeep sit outside all night (about 50 degrees F here). The next morning (about 65 degrees), I start it up and let it run for 15 seconds, then I put it in gear and it dies and absolutely will not restart. I plugged the heater back in and pump the primer about 20 times before I get any resistance. The thing then started right up, and I've had no problems all day long. I've never had any starting/stalling problems at all up to this point.

Any thoughts?

P.S. The filter block is going to be changed on Thursday to fix the leaking connector. I will try unplugging again and see if the same thing happens.

huxrules · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2007 2:44 am

In the common rail what is the pressure? While a liquid should be incompressible- any pressure increase should increase the temperature of the liquid. Could the fuel be boiling in the common rail (or in the injector). I cant believe that the fuel would boil in the filter- it would have to be like 400 degrees! But if it was too hot- when it went through the high pressure fuel pump it could boil in the common rail. Mine only seemed to buck when the engine was hot (ie I was ragging on it or had been heat soaking it during a long highway trip).

Just some thoughts.

Someone is going to make a fortune off of dummy plugs for the CRD.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2007 4:21 am

Rail psi is around 24,000 max. You would have to heat your fuel to around 400 degrees to get it to boil. Your filter head would start on fire before your fuel boiled. Not the problem. I think dc just made a bad batch of heaters that short out internally.

Jeger · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2007 5:13 am

Remember that as pressure goes up so does boiling point. Also true is the opposite. At lower pressures (vacuum) boiling point will lower. Just how much vacuum is the filter assembly under while at full throttle?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

CHessMaster wrote:

FWIW, here is my recent experience.

I disconnected the heater connector, and noticed it is still wet with fuel and starting to get a little crispy (burned) in one of the connector cavity's.

Anyway, I drive about 30 miles and leave the Jeep sit outside all night (about 50 degrees F here). The next morning (about 65 degrees), I start it up and let it run for 15 seconds, then I put it in gear and it dies and absolutely will not restart. I plugged the heater back in and pump the primer about 20 times before I get any resistance. The thing then started right up, and I've had no problems all day long. I've never had any starting/stalling problems at all up to this point.

Any thoughts?

P.S. The filter block is going to be changed on Thursday to fix the leaking connector. I will try unplugging again and see if the same thing happens.

If the fuel heater socket is wet with fuel, it's leaking from inside the heater element through the pins. On mine, it became progressively worse until it nearly caught fire, and would not run above 1300 rpm without stumbling, shaking, and excessive smoke. There appears to be a small percentage of the fuel heads that begin to leak fuel out of the heater socket over time. Mine never leaked at the gasket. I took the fuel head apart, installed a new gasket from an oil filter, and it still leaked from the fuel heater socket. What happens is when the engine is running, and pulling a vacuum on the fuel head, it won't leak fuel out. Shutting the engine off and pumping the primer handle will cause fuel to drain or even spray in some cases, out of the fuel socket. Mine eventually set a code P0093, large evaporative leak, but not before the engine stopped dead while driving down the street. It takes a fews minutes to get it restarted.

The CAT filter kit will not repair this kind of leak, unfortunately.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2007 7:32 am

onthehunt wrote:

Rail psi is around 24,000 max. You would have to heat your fuel to around 400 degrees to get it to boil. Your filter head would start on fire before your fuel boiled. Not the problem. I think dc just made a bad batch of heaters that short out internally.

I keep thinking something was wrong about the fuel being too hot, but you fingered it for me. I just could not get around the hot fuel thing, if we were talking gas engine then it would be different. That said I was wondering if it wasn't heat bugging the fuel could it be that it was just not enough fuel flow through the filter that caused some of the problems. I know that when you are fuel starving diesels in the past (this is my first common rail unit) the reaction would be bucking and stumbling, depending of how hard or fast the excelleration and off throttle was happening. The more I think about some of these problems I am more to the opinion that some have just gotten bad head units or heaters, or both.

All that said our CRD is just running so smooth and quite as to be almost gasser quite, and that says a lot when you consider this vehicle has basiclly has no engine sound deading material. It just may be that between the ULSD, ORM, EHM, and fuel filter mod, that we/I have finally overcome a lot of engineering mistakes of this vehicle.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

oldnavy wrote:

onthehunt wrote:

Rail psi is around 24,000 max. You would have to heat your fuel to around 400 degrees to get it to boil. Your filter head would start on fire before your fuel boiled. Not the problem. I think dc just made a bad batch of heaters that short out internally.

I keep thinking something was wrong about the fuel being too hot, but you fingered it for me. I just could not get around the hot fuel thing, if we were talking gas engine then it would be different. That said I was wondering if it wasn't heat bugging the fuel could it be that it was just not enough fuel flow through the filter that caused some of the problems. I know that when you are fuel starving diesels in the past (this is my first common rail unit) the reaction would be bucking and stumbling, depending of how hard or fast the excelleration and off throttle was happening. The more I think about some of these problems I am more to the opinion that some have just gotten bad head units or heaters, or both.

All that said our CRD is just running so smooth and quite as to be almost gasser quite, and that says a lot when you consider this vehicle has basiclly has no engine sound deading material. It just may be that between the ULSD, ORM, EHM, and fuel filter mod, that we/I have finally overcome a lot of engineering mistakes of this vehicle.

I looked up some of the numbers on the plastic spin-on fuel heater (PA66GF30), and it matches a nylon plastic in industry made for heat resistant plastic called Ultramid. This is rated at 479F or 248C. The fuel head is metal except for the fuel heater and primer pump handle. I think if the plastic spin-on filter is made of Ultramid, it could withstand temperatures of nearly 500F. The flashpoint of D2 is > 62C and the autoignition temperature is ~ 210C, well below that of Ultramid plastic. So the fuel head would not necessarily be on fire before the diesel boiled or burned, at least not the plastic fuel heater housing.

From the search results on BF66GF30:

The first adapter 1 may be made of resin or fiber reinforced resin with high Tg (glass transition point). And, in view of molding processability, glass fiber reinforced nylon such as 23wt% glass fiber reinforced nylon 12 (PA12GF23) and 30wt% glass fiber reinforced nylon 66 (PA66GF30) is preferably used. As understood from heat distortion temperature of various resin materials shown in Table 1 (Test Method: ASTM D648 1.85Mpa), heat distortion temperature of of PA66GF30 (the trade name Ultramid A3W6G from BASF) is 248 DEG C. Both has sufficient heat resistant property against temperature of internal fluid in a heater piping,

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2007 12:20 pm

Just wanted to pose an alternative hypothesis for why unplugging the connector might reduce the air in the filter assembly. Is there a split/crack/seal that could simply be being pried open with the connector inserted, and spring shut with it out? It would take a fair amount of heat to boil diesel (320F or so, IIRC). I'd expect the plastic or the heater itself to fail by that time.

PS - to the guy running RUG/WVO in his Libby: I'd love to hear a report back on your experiences after 50k miles or so. I sure wouldn't do that to any newer diesel engine and expect it to last a long time.

Shudder after WOT Fix

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