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 Post subject: Tire Pressure "oops" by dealer?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:19 pm 
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Ok, so I was reading the "Low Tire Pressure" post (posted by Jiberty), and noticed that many of you keep your tire pressure at/around 28-33psi. I have the factory Goodyear tires that came with my '03 Renegade, and the sidewall of the tire says the max. inflation is 44psi, however the sticker on the driver door says max. is 33psi. What's up with that? Is this an error by the dealer, or did they switch tires and not the label? I have kept my tires at 43psi since I bought it new and now have over 43,000 miles on the Libby, and probably have about 6,000 miles left on the tires. Up to this point I have not been off-road with it either. So what's the popular concensus here?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:23 pm 
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Hi,same here 2003 renny,stock tires. wondering?? :?:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:24 pm 
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I have always ran 35psi. I have 42,000 and a few off road miles on them and they still have about half life.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:27 pm 
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the pressure printed on the tire itself is the MAX tire pressure that the tire is rated for... definately NOT recommended to run your tires at this pressure (or even close to it) as you're more than likely over-inflated and will cause your tires to wear unevenly and ride rough... and possibly blow-out.

you should always use the tire pressures on the door label as your guide for tire inflation and go from there... this is Jeep's recommendation for ideal tire pressure for the stock tire size... depending on the size of the tire if you up-size, you can experiment with tire pressures to obtain optimal ride and tread wear.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:27 pm 
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Tire manufacturers set a max tire pressure on all tires. Vehicle manufacturers set a max tire pressure for the stock tires based on vehicle. And they don't always match.

IMO, it's always best to go by what the vehicle manufacturer says.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:52 pm 
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I've found that if I run my 245/75 Revos at less than 40psi, I get more wear on the sides, so I always run mine at 40 (except offroad, of course). The ride isn't as cushy, but it helps the tires wear more evenly, and improves fuel economy.

The vehicle manufacturer's recommendation is based on stock tires. You'll need to experiment a little to find the right pressure for your configuration, or contact the tire manufacturer directly. I think they base it on the weight of the vehicle.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:23 am 
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As far as I know, I have always ran my tires within 1 or 2 psi of the recommended max. inflation. I read a report in a car magazine once that actually stated that if you do not do this, you are at serious risk of underperformance and they actually recommended that 1 or 2 psi ABOVE the max. psi is 99% better and safer (not recommended however - for obvious reasons) than that much below it. This study actually came from the tire manufacturers and how they determine what kind of tire they put on or recommend for a specific vehicle. The article also stated how dangerous it was to put those HUGE rims on vehicles, like the 20" ones you see in the ghetto or on those wannabe "Fast and Furious" idiots (sorry if you're into that kind of thing, but it's not my cup 'o tea, and I think most of them sound rediculous with those "coffee-can mufflers - like a coninuous fart). Tire size and design are all scrutinized very carefully for the vehicle.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:03 am 
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Oops ... on the 20's I should probably take those off huh?? :shock:

Just kidding. Still riding stock. :-)r

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:41 am 
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From AAA:
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Tire Inflation Pressure
Improve fuel mileage by maintaining your car's tires at maximum pressure.

Four out of five cars and light trucks on the road at this minute are running on underinflated tires. If that seems surprising, buy an inexpensive tire pressure gauge and check the pressures of all four tires on your own vehicle. The chances are that one or more will be inflated to less than the maximum pressure molded into the tire sidewall.
The U.S. Department of Transportation says that most drivers can improve fuel mileage by at least two percent by keeping their vehicle tires at the maximum recommended pressures.

You can find the carmaker's recommended tire pressures in your owner's manual and on a tire decal or placard in the glove compartment or on the driver's door post, near a hinge.

Today, most vehicle manufacturers recommend pressures that are equal or close to the maximum pressure molded into the tire sidewall.

When you buy new tires, your best inflation pressure guideline is the maximum pressure molded into the tire sidewall.

Whether you find the recommended pressures on the vehicle, in your owner's manual, or on the tire sidewall, the recommendations are cold inflation pressures. This means that the pressure should be checked and adjusted when the tire is completely cold or after driving less than one mile. The pressure in a tire rises as the vehicle is driven. Never let air out of a hot tire to reduce pressure to a cold-inflation recommendation.

Several myths and misunderstandings work against proper tire maintenance. One myth is that the sidewalls of radial tires are supposed to bulge. That may have made a case in 1968 when radials were built with higher profiles and ran at 32-psi pressure. Today, with higher-pressure 50-, 60- and 70-series low-profile radials, that old myth is simply not true. More often than not, it becomes an excuse to ignore proper inflation pressure.

As tire profiles have gotten lower, inflation pressures have gotten higher. Until the early 1980s, most passenger car tires were inflated to a maximum pressure of 32 psi. Today, pressures in the low 40-psi range are common. Many light truck tires have their maximum load ratings at 50+ psi. With the older maximum pressures of 32 psi, it was common to inflate tires to the maximum for best handling, tire life, and gas mileage. With today's higher pressures, your best guide is to follow the manufacturer's recommendations on a late-model vehicle's tire data placard. If you go higher than the carmaker's specs, hold it to no more than 4 psi and do not exceed the tire's maximum pressure rating.

All you need to check your tire pressures is a simple pencil-type pressure gauge that you can buy for $3 to $6 at any auto parts store. Don't rely on the pressure gauges on service station air hoses. They are notoriously inaccurate (not to mention hard to read). When you buy a pressure gauge, get one that measures up to 50 pounds per square inch (psi) in 1-psi increments. If you have a light- or medium-duty truck or SUV, you may want a gauge that reads up to 80 or 100 psi.

To check tire pressures:
• Remove the valve stem cap from each tire.
• Firmly press the pressure gauge squarely onto the valve stem. Do not press too hard or force the valve stem sideways, or air will escape. If you hear the hiss of air escaping from the tire as you check the pressure, reposition the gauge to eliminate this leakage.
• Remove the gauge and read the tire pressure on the gauge stem.
• Add air to the tire as needed. If you add too much air, press the core of the valve stem briefly with your fingernail or the tip of the gauge stem to release pressure. Then recheck the pressure and continue to add or release air as needed.
• Install the valve stem cap.
• Check the pressure of all other tires, including the full-size spare if your vehicle has one.
• If your car has a small, temporary spare tire, it may require a special inflator to be used when installed.

So, does this confuse the issue even more or what?!

This from the STS Tire & Auto Center page:
Quote:
Do You Know About...?

Inflation Pressure

Improper tire inflation pressure is one of the leading causes of premature tire wear. It can also change the way your vehicle handles. The most common problem is underinflation. Changes in climate can also effect tire inflation pressure. For each 10 degree change in temperature, inflation pressure is affected by 1 PSI. Underinflation can cause premature wear at the shoulder of the tire and increased rolling resistance. Driving with an inflation pressure of just 5 PSI below the recommended levels can reduce fuel economy by as much as 2% and reduce treadlife by up to 25%.

Inflation pressure can also cause dramatic changes in vehicle handling performance. Have you ever heard your tires squeal while cornering? They were probably trying to tell you that you need to have their air pressure checked. When tires squeal, they are breaking traction with the road surface. While this may sound like fun to some folks, lost traction is not often considered a safe handling attribute.

The best advice is to check your inflation pressure monthly (weekly if possible).
Follow the recommendation on the vehicle placard on the driver's side door or in your owner's manual. There is a maximum inflation level marked on each tire. Very rarely does the maximum inflation level coincide with the recommended level.
Tires inflated to the maximum inflation level are often overinflated. This can cause premature center wear of the tire and it makes the tires more susceptible to road hazards.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:44 pm 
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I'll up you one on Confusions :shock:
Tire Pressure Hints
Tire inflation pressure may have gained greater awareness in the public's mind in the last two years, but it has always been a priority for the enthusiast. Obviously, when going to an autocross or track day, tire pressures are one of the items that will be checked and set by anyone who is at all serious. Most manufacturers recommend checking tire pressures weekly or monthly but, like flossing one's teeth, checking tire pressures on a daily driver is one of those things that is very easy to forever do "tomorrow."

Driving in an ordinary manner may not reveal even a completely flat tire on a light car with today's high-performance, low-profile structures. A visual check with a walk-around of the car at least each morning is the easiest and most basic way of preventing trouble. A flat tire will be obvious, though simply sagging pressures will be considerably less so. On one project car around the office, I noticed a rear tire looked a bit low and guessed it had 12 psi. It turned out to be completely flat and, while the original puncture was repairable, driving on it had made the expensive tire scrap. Neither driver nor passengers had detected anything amiss. Similar misfortune has befallen several other cars, so it's definitely worth taking some precautions.


Even tires in perfect condition lose air over time and should be checked periodically. It may be easier to remember if you buy a quality gauge and keep it in the glovebox rather than in your toolbox. A quality, trustworthy gauge makes it more pleasant than with the uncertainty of the gas station's beater, though in european car's tire-pressure-gauge test (July 2000), four randomly selected gas station air hose pressure gauges were checked, and none was in error to a degree that would lead to a dangerous condition. Since then, the Porsche(R)-approved gauge we chose as our favorite has been seen all over the place, from The Tire Rack to local auto parts stores, at very affordable prices.
Some people aren't sure where to set their tire pressures. The one thing that is certain is that the maximum inflation pressure on the sidewall is not the right one to use. The vehicle manufacturer's recommendation is always a good starting point. It will be somewhere in the car. This used to be a sticker in the driver's door jamb, but more and more it's located on the back of the gas filler door. If that fails, the information should be in the owner's manual. Sometimes, there will be a range specified, or two different recommendations, depending on load. Anywhere between these numbers should be safe.

Changing the tire size or going to a plus-size fitment will change the required inflation pressure somewhat. Within the range of optional OE tire sizes, the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations should be followed. For sizes outside the range, the tire manufacturer should be able to help. Yokohama, for instance, includes pressure recommendations for stock and plus-sizes, by vehicle, in its annual Fitment Guide, which your tire dealer should have a copy of. Typically, these are 0-3 psi higher for a Plus-one or Plus-two fitment. Also listed are maximum load ratings at maximum inflation pressure for each size of each tire Yokohama makes.

If the recommendations you find leave you with a range and you want to know more specifically, you can experiment. Air, after all, is free. A change of 2-3 psi can completely change a vehicle. An underinflated tire will ride smoothly but feel sluggish, have mushy turn-in and go around corners with high slip angles or just not much grip at all. An overinflated tire will feel harsh on impact and over smaller bumps, and while responding crisply, will lack grip when pushed hard. To an experienced person, these characteristics are obvious even from the passenger seat. Try the minimum and maximum of your target range, and maybe slightly outside it, and decide what you like.

In the event that you aren't able to find a recommendation for your car, or the tires on your car are so different from those that were originally fitted from the manufacturer as to be incomparable, we received the following rule of thumb from Oscar Pereda, an engineer for BFGoodrich. He calls it a "realistic starting point," saying it has never been just right, but is a good place to start. The rule is:

(Vehicle Weight in lb/100) + 2 psi at heavier end + 2 psi all around if suspension and alignment are stock.

Example: Stock 911, 3,000 lb.
(3000/100) = 30 psi
Add 2 psi all around = 32 psi
Add 2 psi to heavy end = 34 psi at rear
With modified suspension, the result is 30 psi front, 32 psi rear.

"There is no 'golden' tire pressure," Oscar said. The optimal setting depends on the individual driver and his preferences. For those inclined to find the ultimate setup for track use, Oscar provided additional instructions. First, get a skidpad, and plan to be dizzy. Take your dramamine. Drive in a circle, first one direction, then the other. Measure and record tire temperature distributions with a probe-type pyrometer that actually penetrates the rubber, not the "aim and click" infrared type. You want bulk temperature, not surface temperature, because the surface cools rapidly while the inner temperature is more stable. When measuring tire temperatures, if center is hotter or cooler than shoulders, there is too much or too little pressure, respectively.

Adjust pressures in 2-psi increments and record all adjustments. Adjust pressures by differences. If you start at 30 psi, and want to take out 2 psi, but the tires have heated up and are at 33 psi, set them at 31 psi rather than 28. The sum of all the changes made will be very close to the change from your initial cold setting. To check this, leave the tires alone at the end of the day, let them cool, and check the pressures in the morning. If at any point during the day you "reset" your pressures to some arbitrary starting place, you are suddenly lost, and all the work you have done that day is gone.

The ideal caster and toe alignment settings will give even tire pressures all across the tread. This can be determined in the same way as the optimum tire pressure. You'll never get the tire temperatures perfectly even, but the best you can do is the best you can do, which is the point of the exercise. What works best will vary from car to car depending on camber curves, body roll, ride height and other factors.

Which tire pressure gauge to use? Oscar told us that, in general, less expensive gauges tend to deviate more at higher pressures. To run the vehicle manufacturer's recommended pressure, accuracy is more important. To dial in a car, precision and repeatability are more important.

For more information, consult your tire manufacturer. The better tire company websites have extensive technical information. Another good source is the Rubber Manufacturer's Association. http://rma.org/tiresafety/



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How to Read a Sidewall
Tire sizing is simple to understand, once you know what the numbers mean. Generally a tire's sidewall will have a set of letters and numbers of the form AAA/BBC-DD EEEF, where AAA = section width, BB = aspect ratio, C = construction, DD = wheel diameter, EEE = load index, and F = speed rating.

Take, for example, a BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD, listed 205/50ZR-17 89Y. When installed on the designed wheel width, the tire will be nominally 205mm wide at the widest point of the sidewall bulge. It has an aspect ratio of 50, meaning the section height is 50 percent of the section width. Thus, it will be roughly 102.5mm from the bead to the tread. The tire mounts on a 17-in.-diameter wheel. If these numbers were perfectly accurate, the tire would have this rolling diameter: 17+(102.5*2)/25.4 = 25.07 in. BFGoodrich lists the overall diameter as 25.1 in., but many tires of the same nominal size will have slightly different widths or heights.

I have met some enthusiasts who obsessed over the overall diameter when changing tire sizes because of the possible effect on gearing. If a tire starts life with 3/16-in. tread depth and is worn down to 1/16-in. tread depth, it has lost 1/4-in. of its diameter. In the example above, 0.25/25 = 0.01, or 1.0 percent. Thus, I wouldn't worry about overall diameter if it is within plus or minus 1/4-in. of the original equipment.

Returning again to the BFGoodrich example above, the R indicates that the tire is of radial construction. A "Z" in the tire size indicates a Z-rated tire, which means it is safe at least to speeds of 149 mph. The actual speed rating is the last letter, which indicates the upper limit. In our case, it is 186 mph. The load index is the maximum load the tire can carry when fully inflated. In our example, it is 1279 lb.

Speed Ratings
Q = 99 mph, 160km/h
S = 112 mph, 180km/h
T = 118 mph, 190km/h
U = 124 mph, 200km/h
H = 130 mph, 210km/h
V = 149 mph, 240km/h
W = 168 mph, 270km/h
Y = 186 mph, 300km/h
Z = 149 mph, 240km/h and over

In order to create some sort of uniform tire quality grading standard, the federal government has established the creatively named Uniform Tire Quality Grading standards, more commonly known as the UTQG. These standards apply only to passenger car tires, except deep tread, winter or snow tires, temporary use spares and tires with 12-in. or smaller diameters. The grades are for three aspects of tire performance: treadwear, traction and temperature. The grade is molded onto the sidewall of the tire. These grades are good for comparing one tire to another on a basic level, but keep in mind that most high-performance tires will exceed any government minimum standard.

Treadwear is determined on a controlled government test course. It is a comparative scale, meaning that a tire graded 200 would wear 50% better than a tire graded 150. Keep in mind, however, that in the real world, driving habits, road conditions, climate and a host of other factors can make a big difference in what the actual treadwear will be, regardless of the UTQG rating.

Traction grades (AA is best, then A, B and C) represent how well a car is able to stop on wet pavement under controlled conditions. The government tests on both concrete and asphalt, since both have different grip qualities. Note that the government test has only to do with wet braking, not with cornering, acceleration, hydroplaning or any other traction characteristics.

Finally there is the temperature rating, which measures how well the tire resists heat generation and how well it dissipates heat under controlled laboratory tests. Sustained high temperatures can reduce tire life because of the degeneration of materials in the tire. A grade of C means that the tire simply conforms to the safety standard set forth by the government. Grades of B and A are higher levels of performance beyond the minimum required. These tests are done on a tire that is properly inflated and loaded properly. Excessive speed, underinflation or other tire abuse can cause any tire to fail unexpectedly.

Load Index lb kg Load Index lb kg
71 761 345 91 1,356 615
72 783 355 92 1,389 630
73 805 365 93 1,433 650
74 827 375 94 1,477 670
75 853 387 95 1,521 690
76 882 400 96 1,565 710
77 908 412 97 1,609 730
78 937 425 98 1,653 750
79 963 437 99 1,709 775
80 992 450 100 1,764 800
81 1,019 462 101 1,819 825
82 1,047 475 102 1,874 850
83 1,074 487 103 1,929 875
84 1,102 500 104 1,984 900
85 1,135 515 105 2,039 925
86 1,168 530 106 2,094 950
87 1,201 545 107 2,149 975
88 1,235 560 108 2,205 1,000
89 1,279 580 109 2,271 1,030
90 1,323 600 110 2,337 1,060

By Dan Barnes
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0208scc_tires/


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:34 pm 
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40psi ony my. Max is 80psi, 6 ply.

Rides best at 40 to me and with 20k on them they are wearing nicely.

Note: with all the extra weight on my from skids, ect. stock psi was no good.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:53 pm 
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you should always use the tire pressures on the door label as your guide

:-)r
Mine came stock with a different size than what's listed on the door.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire Pressure "oops" by dealer?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:43 am 
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SavageUrge wrote:
Ok, so I was reading the "Low Tire Pressure" post (posted by Jiberty), and noticed that many of you keep your tire pressure at/around 28-33psi. I have the factory Goodyear tires that came with my '03 Renegade, and the sidewall of the tire says the max. inflation is 44psi, however the sticker on the driver door says max. is 33psi.


I have the same tires you do. I am currently running 38 cold. At 20M miles they are wearing well. and getting about .6 MPG better than at factory recommendations. Have also noticed a variation in readings depending on the gauge. Those stick gauges are worthless.

My TPMS shows the tire PSI can easily go up by 5psi as the day warms up and driving friction heats up the tires -- something to keep in mind.

The Goodyear SRA's lose air faster than some. Also with the cooler air coming in fall and winter, pressure will drop noticably. In other words, you should be checking your PSI regularly for optimal tire wear, performance and handling.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire Pressure "oops" by dealer?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am 
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roadrunner wrote:
I have the same tires you do. I am currently running 38 cold. At 20M miles they are wearing well.

Wow, you have 20 million miles on your tires? HOLY CRAP :shock: I'm sure you meant 20K miles.

As far as the tire manufacturers max inflation pressure, I had always believed that this was the inflation you would want with maximum load in your vehicle; the more weight on the tire the more it deforms at a given pressure, so you would increase pressure to make sure your contact patch remained consistent and you didn't cause any excess wear on the tires. I know I would never run maximum pressure in my tires if I was the only load in the vehicle. My two one-hundredths of a dollar on the subject...

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 Post subject: Re: Tire Pressure "oops" by dealer?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:02 pm 
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corwyyn wrote:
Wow, you have 20 million miles on your tires? HOLY CRAP


Yep. These were hand me downs from my great grandpappy when he settled out West in his Conestoga wagon. I got them when i (sic) was knee high to a grasshopper -- had them on my first bicycle, couple of airplanes, 67 cars and trucks, my old Oliver 55 tractor and a big rig. By now, as you can imagine, they're well worn in. Had them re-treaded about 6 years ago. We've been testing a special, soon to be patented secret rubber compound! I can't say much more about that except that 20 million miles might be conservative, especially if you count the air miles! :lol:

Seriously, you make an excellent point about varying the tire pressure according to the load. Whether anyone else agrees it's worth 2 cents or not is another matter! :wink: A great way to check your application is with a chalk line across the tread of a reasnably new set of rubber to see if it comes off evenly after a couple of revolutions. If more is left on the sides, you're overinflated and visa versa. :)

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CaKJFreedom wrote:
Quote:
you should always use the tire pressures on the door label as your guide

:-)r
Mine came stock with a different size than what's listed on the door.


Our stock size isn't listed on the door, but it is on the sticker in the glove box.

I run my Pirelli Scorpions at 35psi, but that's their max pressure so I couldn't go higher if I wanted to.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:44 am 
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running stock on my 05 renny and i was running at 33 psi cold...pumped em up to 38 cold and now i get about 1 to 1.5 mpg better. Just went on a 400 mile trip and for the first time ever got 20.5 mpg average all the way back. was great.


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 Post subject: K vs. M
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:22 pm 
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Location: Apple Valley, So. CA
Lots of good info about tires, thanks. To Corwyn: M is Roman for 1,000 and K is Greek for 1,000. They are both used commonly. Could be confusing but you usually won't see them mixed, except here. So, K x M = 1MM (that's Roman for 1 million - 1,000 x 1,000).

On the other end of the inflation scale, how low is everyone going when off highway? On my KJ with stock 235/75 Goodyear tires, I've dropped them to 15 psi, but they're bulging quite a bit; mostly 18 psi. On my Wrangler, I drop my BFG ATs to 12, but a friend who does extreme rock crawling drops his BFG MTs to 5 and with no tire slippage on non-beadlocked rims! Comfy ride and great traction. Next time I'm at Glamis, I'll try that.

_________________
Ted Kalil
2005 KJ Renegade & 1987 Wrangler.
2010 Yamaha 700 Grizzly - got very sick. So.. 2012 Polaris RZR 800


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