DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:27 pm

I admire those of you trying to further re-invent the mouse trap, but I'm certainly glad I stuck with my "over-priced" OEM fuel filters over the past two years of ownership.

I've been able to purchase locally around $27 or $28 or so. At 31k miles and fuel filter replacements every 14k to 16k miles, in addition to regular draining of the fuel filter, I've experienced zero problems with the fuel system.

Sounds like the CAT w/o the use of the WIF sensor is not a cost effective mod after all.

Best of luck to getting your CRD back on the road soon....and as inexpensively as possible.

Greg

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

gsbrockman wrote:

I admire those of you trying to further re-invent the mouse trap, but I'm certainly glad I stuck with my "over-priced" OEM fuel filters over the past two years of ownership.

I've been able to purchase locally around $27 or $28 or so. At 31k miles and fuel filter replacements every 14k to 16k miles, in addition to regular draining of the fuel filter, I've experienced zero problems with the fuel system.

Sounds like the CAT w/o the use of the WIF sensor is not a cost effective mod after all.

Best of luck to getting your CRD back on the road soon....and as inexpensively as possible.

Greg

You can beleive what you want but I seriously doubt that it took on water. If it did their is still the same fuel in the tank and a test can be run.

Greg

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

gsbrockman wrote:

I admire those of you trying to further re-invent the mouse trap, but I'm certainly glad I stuck with my "over-priced" OEM fuel filters over the past two years of ownership.

I've been able to purchase locally around $27 or $28 or so. At 31k miles and fuel filter replacements every 14k to 16k miles, in addition to regular draining of the fuel filter, I've experienced zero problems with the fuel system.

Sounds like the CAT w/o the use of the WIF sensor is not a cost effective mod after all.

Best of luck to getting your CRD back on the road soon....and as inexpensively as possible.

Greg

Where can you get the filter for $28?

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:05 pm

midwest wrote:

Where can you get the filter for $28?

Cornett Chrysler in Irvine, KY.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:10 pm

That's pretty much what I paid for mine at Hansen Chrysler in Nashville, TN.

It wasn't much money, and it was in stock.

skywarn · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:45 pm

gsbrockman wrote:

Sounds like the CAT w/o the use of the WIF sensor is not a cost effective mod after all.

I fully beleave its the best mod out there. I know for a fact that that im getting a true 2 micron filter for my fuel. with all the science set aside, and going on common s... oops.. guess i cant say thet here.. :lol:

anywho.... looking at a DH8 Cat, which gets its fuel from a 55 gan drum that sits in the mud and water and is pumped by a person that makes 5.15 an hour and has lower standards than farm diesel... runs the same fuel filter that protects our little 10K motor... compaired to the 50K motor in a DH8 Dozzer.

all that being said... i like my prob free cat 2 filter

(thanks greg!)

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:51 pm

Just got back from the dealer, and after speaking with the diesel/Sprinter/CRD tech I believe the pump is hatched. He states that fuel starvation or air in the fuel caused the low pressure pump to fail, which caused the high side to fail. He ran all the tests (low pressure side failed miserably - it could only draw 1 mmHG when normal is about 15 mmHG) and all the sensors were up to snuff. So, a couple three grand later the Heep will be on the road in the next day or two. The warranty will probably be reinstated and maybe some of the repairs will be covered.

bugnout · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:13 pm

So fuel starvation maybe caused by air in the line.
I guess the lesson might be: Bleeding the air out is very important... Not bleeding well enough is very expensive...
More importantantly, it sounds like this is not related specifically to the CAT filter, could have happened with the Stock filter as well.

Best of Luck, I've been following this thread and I feel your frustration.

Jeger · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:17 pm

So from all of this, are we to learn that too much air in the system will fry our pumps in short order?

So what about those of us that have had no start conditions that were fixed by bleeding the fuel filter assy. Did our pumps suffer some damage?

marauderer · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:25 pm

After reading this complete thread. It sound funny that the pump has died.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:38 pm

Jeger wrote:

So from all of this, are we to learn that too much air in the system will fry our pumps in short order?

So what about those of us that have had no start conditions that were fixed by bleeding the fuel filter assy. Did our pumps suffer some damage?

I doubt the average little bit of air that might get in the line during filter change will destory a pump, it it were then my MB with self priming pump and no real way to blead the little bit of air that will get in the system for some reason has not been hurt in 190,000 miles, it hasn't hurt the VW TDI's that will always have a small abount of air that self purges like the MB, as does the CRD.

However if you have a air leak into the system all the time and so much as to starve the engine multi times then yes you are damaging the pump enough that it will fail premature. How early is depending on how much air and how long it continues before being fix, driven long enough it will fail very quickly.

Hope this has helped you guys.

PS: If you dealer/Jeep fails to pay for this replacement I hope you at least got kissed behind the ear. :wink:

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:08 pm

Somehow what Mikey's mechanic is saying doesn't jive with what Greg in Seattle and Robin in Lewiston would believe after having just returned from the Bosch trainng and with their specialized diesel pump experience. I am not sure this is yet the end of the story.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:41 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

Somehow what Mikey's mechanic is saying doesn't jive with what Greg in Seattle and Robin in Lewiston would believe after having just returned from the Bosch trainng and with their specialized diesel pump experience. I am not sure this is yet the end of the story.

Blaming the pump failure on the Cat 2 micron filter is like blaming pump failure from running B2, B10 or B100, it just is not a proven event and is just an excuse to deny warranty and charge a lot more labor hours. It is just about $$$$$ proffit and putting the screws to this guys checking/savings/CC account.

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:17 pm

Here is what I know, the pump is hooped. The tech explained it well enough, it followed with expert opinion (sort of), and he proved the only available test to me. It is not a testable pump, a rebuildable pump, nor an oft used pump; it is a brand new design (the low pressure gear pump attached to the pump, on the Sprinter it is on the engine block) and therefore it is not well known how they fail. Our system safeguards are as follows:

1) Large leak code with CEL
2) An electronic fuel cut off if the level in the tank is too low. This stops the engine and potentially fends off fuel starvation to the pump.
3) A not too good fuel filter. It is a 3 micron nominal (MOPAR) filter which allows lots of flow even if it passes crap. I hate this design because injectors are about $800 - $900 a pop.

The low pressure side draws fuel from the tank, on all other Bosch CP3 based pumps there is an electric lift pump that keeps the high side of the pump fed with the vital D2 humors, and if it is starved so is the super high pressure side (23000 psi) ET VOILA! Fried pump.

I bought the CRD used and have no idea if the previous owner had any air in the system complaints. For all I know that is why he traded the beast, and I did notice a fuel heater leak when I did my diagnostic tests.

I will be sending the pump out for autopsy as soon as I get it back. Hopefully this problem will help others in the future.

I will not blame the CAT filter, it is most likely a combination of events that led to this conclusion.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:37 pm

drharv wrote:

and I did notice a fuel heater leak when I did my diagnostic tests.

There is most likely the real cause of the air leaks that killed your IP if the truth were known. Not sure how you would prove it to D/C or a court.

If you can check and see if it has had past warranty work for the leaking problem before you bought the vehicle. It very well may have been that the previous dealer/owner didn't know the first thing about the CRD and diesels in genera,l and previous owner got tired of the problems and traded or walked away from the payments.

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:12 pm

bugnout wrote:

So fuel starvation maybe caused by air in the line.

Can some members refresh my memory.....the CAT filter filters down to 2 microns......so, what does the OEM filter filter down to ? Any chance of pump damage due to the possibly more restrictive (under vacuum) CAT filter vs the OEM filter ?

Greg

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:30 pm

gsbrockman wrote:

bugnout wrote:

So fuel starvation maybe caused by air in the line.

Can some members refresh my memory.....the CAT filter filters down to 2 microns......so, what does the OEM filter filter down to ? Any chance of pump damage due to the possibly more restrictive (under vacuum) CAT filter vs the OEM filter ?

Greg

The Cat filter is 2 micron absolute and OEM is 3 nominal and 10 or 20 absolute, don't remember what aboslute was for sure. The filter was designed to flow enough fuel for a Cat V8 2 or 3 times the size in fuel flow as our CRD can flow at max power.

This setup has been used for several years now on VW diesels w/o any problem at all other then the ocassional improper install by the individual.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:55 pm

oldnavy wrote:

drharv wrote:

and I did notice a fuel heater leak when I did my diagnostic tests.

There is most likely the real cause of the air leaks that killed your IP if the truth were known. Not sure how you would prove it to D/C or a court.

If you can check and see if it has had past warranty work for the leaking problem before you bought the vehicle. It very well may have been that the previous dealer/owner didn't know the first thing about the CRD and diesels in genera,l and previous owner got tired of the problems and traded or walked away from the payments.

The key may well be hidden in Mikey's statement below. If there was a filter head leak at the heater, similar to those apparently being invetigated currently by NTSB, that in combination with too much air in earlier situations then a little extra at the time of the CAT change and kaput goes the pump. It would seem strange that the pump failed quickly and catastrophically though with no other performance issues until it stopped.

Quote:

and I did notice a fuel heater leak when I did my diagnostic tests.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:08 pm

Having worked as a Territory Service Manager for a Ag Equipment manufacturer over 27 years ago, I know the routine well. Some dealers will jump on any opportunity to terminate a warranty. With out having an authorized Bosch repair center do a failure analysis on the high pressure pump and determining the cause of the damage, you do not have a leg to stand on, even with a good Lawyer. If you can't get a Bosch repair center to do the failure analysis, I would recommend you check for a used unit and it may need to come from Europe. Bosch uses this type of high pressure pump on all of the Common Rail Systems and Bosch tries to have maximum parts commonality. With this in mind the guts out of another high pressure pump assembly may be all you need. I don't think you would care if it came out of Opel, Land Rover, Mercedes, or even a trashed Renault. I would suspect the cost will be much less than $3100.

Steve Sharp

Jeger · **Posted:** Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:24 pm

I think I need to go bleed my fuel filter, the wrench is in the door....

Got plenty of those bleeder adaptors in stock Greg?

Do keep us updated, Im sure you will, I really want to know if air was the problem. This is the only potential problem that really bothers me, it has to be fixed.

DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

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