Hell if I bleed my system everyday, I think it would be full of air everytime. I can't believe DCX can't bite the bullet and admit they have a problem and just fix it, I know with all the over seas junk coming on, they want to try and keep their head above water. I had the fuel filter head replaced a few weeks ago, no improvement at all. Think I wil be looking real hard at a new JK 4 door, hate to take a loss, but not going to owe DCX for ever after the warranty goes off.

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Flame Red 2005 Rubicon Unlimited, 4.0L, 6sp, dual tops, Amsoil ASL 5W30 engine oil and EAO42 filter, IPF 920hc head light conversion with PIAA Xtreme White plus bulbs, Sylvania Silverstar H3ST fogs, Armadillo front/rear bumper caps and pretty much loaded.A few pics of my rig. http://www.gwkweather.net/id5.html

I know how you feel, it is what I did to say further frustration and have some peace of mind.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

First: I would like to say impart my condolences to drvharv and Mikey on the passing of their inector pump. I am sure this is a hard time for the whole family.

Second: shame on the dealer. This air leak thing is getting well documented. Air is bad bad. From the start I suspected air leak, sorry that it k.o.'d the injector pump.

Third: Shame on DC for not having a lifter pump. That's just BEGGING for air leaks. Air leaks happen over time as materials degrade and things wiggle loose. Sucking air into these high-pressure, fast moving, fuel-lubricated pumps is OBVIOUSLY going to be bad. Not a durable set-up for long-term.

Fourth: Do we need to start thinking about installing our own lifter pumps?

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD w/all the fixings
Elephant Hose, MAF (ORM), Amsoil Airfilter, nice when I get to drive it
1 EGRreplacement, but never again.
99.5 FrankenJetta TDI (R.I.P.): being turned into diesel hybrid!
99.5 Replacement Jetta TDI: deal of a lifetime, EHM, some other stuff

I'm wondering if there is a "Cherokee" forum in Europe. This engine has been used over there in both Jeep and Chrysler products.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel (or pump in this case), I wonder what our Euro brothers have done?

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Chad Hargis
Nashville, TN
2008 Grand Cherokee CRD
2005 Liberty CRD *SOLD*

Generally speaking in Europe the tech's are far better trained and laws for warranty and repairs are stricter I have heard.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

If my warranty is shot, then I will be installing a standard automotive low pressure electric fuel pump to assist the small gear pump. To give you an idea of the size of this pump it is about as big as a deck of playing cards but half as thick. It spins at 1:1 with engine rpm and has to draw from many feet away and at many different angles/forces. The new diesel (Grand Cherokee) is exactly the same as the Sprinter and has the same low pressure fuel pump. The CAT filter can flow enough to keep a giant engine happy, but they have much more powerful lift pumps.

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD 4x4 (57000 KM)
New Injector Pump
New ECU
New MAF, MAP, Crank and Cam sensors
New Fuel filter head/heater and wiring harness (x2)
New Glow Plug Control Module and wires to it
New EVIC (Only thing on this list covered by warranty)
New Fuel Rail

where is this pump on the Sprinter/GC? And where/how would you install it on your KJ?

This isssue has been on my mind for some time....

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD w/all the fixings
Elephant Hose, MAF (ORM), Amsoil Airfilter, nice when I get to drive it
1 EGRreplacement, but never again.
99.5 FrankenJetta TDI (R.I.P.): being turned into diesel hybrid!
99.5 Replacement Jetta TDI: deal of a lifetime, EHM, some other stuff

Back a few pages. "mounted on the block" and "has a electric lift pump" If I were going to mount a lift pump it would be in the rear and there would be a cat or other filter right after it as a prefilter long before the factory filter assemblie. But that would all be another possible point of failure. I've mounted electric pumps on older VW's with weak pumps on the firewall. The cars ran fantastic but the pulsating could be herd inside of the car

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Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)

Hehehehe, I seen and heard one of those installs, would not want to drive a long trip with one of those installed. It seems we are back to the point of the problem being fuel supply system from tank to the engine being so poorly planned and engineered as to be almost comical.

Having to re-engineer a new vehicle to get it to reform as it was suppose to do when it was bought new is crazy. We are not talking about mods here to make it go faster or over even worse terrain then it was built to do from the factory, we are just talking about making this a dependable vehicle that is not always in failure mode. I hate to say it, but I think I see big CA law suite in the future coming to Jeep/Chrysler over the Liberty CRD and the poor quality of the design of fuel system and transmission.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

I totally agree This is not some $50, 200,000 plus mile jetta we're talking about I think this is the first of many pump problems caused by air in the system

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Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)

Air bubbles will not destroy a pump as fast as cavitation, contamination, corrosion or lack of lubrication. When I have done failure analysis on a variety of pumps I look for the following to make a determination:
1: Cavitation produces chips, pits, cavities, and pockets into the surface of the working part of the pump with no projections of material above the working surface. With a large Cat 2 filter I suspect cavitation would be an Irish Sweepstakes long shot.
2: Contaminant damage would produce abrasion on the surface of the working part of the pump. With a finer larger filter this is unlikely.
3: Corrosion damage would show as chemical damage of the working surface (rust). With the large filter like the Cat2 filter there is a sizable volume for water to accumulate and stay trapped in the filter bottom.
4: Lack of lubrication damage would show up as galling where the working surfaces weld them selves together and tear apart. There are projections of the base metal above the working surfaces of the pump. Ultra Low Sulfur diesel has very poor lubrication and on both my Wife's TDI and my CRD I add a lubricant to any ULSD I put into the tank. B5, B10, B20, and B100 all have sufficient lubrication. Even if they would have all our diesel fuel at least B2 our injection systems would have sufficient lubrication.

Steve

Since I have owned it I have used a biodiesel additive and or a b20 in the tank.....that is only in the last 7 months. Who knows what happened before I owned it. http://www.milliganbiotech.com/index.php?page=products-dfc.htm

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD 4x4 (57000 KM)
New Injector Pump
New ECU
New MAF, MAP, Crank and Cam sensors
New Fuel filter head/heater and wiring harness (x2)
New Glow Plug Control Module and wires to it
New EVIC (Only thing on this list covered by warranty)
New Fuel Rail

If we start seeing premature pump failure related to fuel starvation from air I would think this would open Jeep up for a significant class action.

It would be interesting if we could get Drharv's failed pump professionally evaluated. I would pitch in on the cost!

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Dave

'06 CRD Limited, Lt. Khaki, MOPAR Slush Mats/Skids, DrawTite Front Hitch, Mag Lite, Yakima Bars, Thule Bike Rack, Fumoto, ORM, 245/70 Revo 2

Wish list: Lift, Boulder Bars, Something Bigger in the Front and Back, More Lights

The Laws of Physics don't lie, inspect the pump and it will tell the truth. When I was in the auto repair business for 14 1/2 years, I wrote depositions for Smart Lawyers, who all settled the cases out of court in favor of the car owner. I based the depositions I composed on sound failure analysis where I explained why and backed it up.
At this point I recommend have a a detailed Failure Analysis written up and have your Lawyer attach this to the letter that is sent to DC and/or Robert Bosch. Court costs are far more expensive than a quick settlement and/or a Class Action Law Suite that will cost them millions. Big companies, manufactures, and Good Law firms are not stupid when it comes to money, they will do a cost benefit analysis on your case and most likely make a reasonable settlement.
Just remember that strong evidence blows away any shoot from the hip assumption made by a technician who works for an independent dealer. Print my other postings that explains what to look for and show these to your Injection Pump Shop doing the check and to your Lawyer.


Steve

Sound advice, you shiould follow this man's advice in my opinion.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

The GM 6.6L DuraMax Diesels also utilize a Bosch CP3 pump. They do not use a lift pump. The fuel filter housing on the DuraMax applications have a bleeder screw and primer somewhat similar to what's used on our CRD's.

Dodge/Cummins (since the introduction of the HPCR's in 2003) opted for the lift pump specifically to aid in easier re-starts of the engine after fuel filter changes and in the remote event of an out-of-fuel condition. In the HPCR Dodge/Cummins applications, if the lift pump fails, the engine simply stops running after a mile or two, with very, very few reported cases of "toasted" CP3's.

This is in direct contrast of the Dodge/Cummins 24V CTD's of the 1998.5 thru 2002 era where a weak / dead lift pump actually would kill the Bosch VP44 injector pump.

Greg

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2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 3.6L and A8
*SOLD*2005 Jeep Liberty Limited 4x4 CRD, Bright Silver Metallic, Dk/Lt Slate Gray Leather w/bun warmers, 5 spd auto, 22G pkg, Trailer Tow, 3.73 Rear Axle w/Trac-Lok Differential, P235/70R16 Firestone Destination LE's, Power Sunroof, Selec-Trac 4WD, Infinity 6-Disc In-Dash, Magnaflow #15870 System.

I have been following this thread from the start, but I may have missed something. Do we know for sure that the failed pump didn't die from ingesting a foreign object? I really think it probably ate a piece of loctite or a small metal filing.

I bought, but haven't installed my Cat conversion. I like the idea and the workmanship. Even after changing the stock fuel filter on this rig, I will pump a couple of quarts into a can or jug. Any loose foreign objects will hopefully be in this initial shot of fuel. My point is that there is no second line of defense here.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of an electric lift pump. I have been beating that drum for a while, but I don't think it would have prevented this failure.

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

The most recent speculation is the pump died from ingesting air (the shop) although a couple a techs, one that I talked to and got connected to Drharv, doubt that it could die that way. He and another tech, both of whom had just been trained recently by Bosch, doubted that air or trash could kill the pump in such short a time, but more likely plug it. While they were not willing to speculate I think they figured it was plugged or had simply failed from a defect. The problem is that there apparently is no factory authorized test or facility in North America to evaluate it as Bosch considers it a low to no failure component. Apparently they have similar pumps that are randomly failing at over 300K miles.

If the Jeep/Sprinter techs that are fixing drharv's Jeep are correct and it is a failure due to air then we all know that air is a problem irrespective of which fuel filter is used in this design. I guess this is what I find troubleing in this whole issue for drharv and one that could be played out again by any one of us even if we have every filter changed by the dealer. Even if the CAT filter was a contributing factor as the pump system was explained to drharv and he related here, there is a cascade of safety features to protect the pump from fuel starvation that would result in pump failure. Still his pump failed because of air/fuel starvation. Not a pleasant or cost effective thought for other owners given this fuel systems penchant for sucking air.

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Dave

'06 CRD Limited, Lt. Khaki, MOPAR Slush Mats/Skids, DrawTite Front Hitch, Mag Lite, Yakima Bars, Thule Bike Rack, Fumoto, ORM, 245/70 Revo 2

Wish list: Lift, Boulder Bars, Something Bigger in the Front and Back, More Lights

Might want to check out this website - www.kennedydiesel.com

Check under "6.5/6.2 L Parts" and under "Duramax Parts" for the different options that he lists for lift pumps. That centrifugal unit he has looks well built, if you can get past the price. This gent apparently specializes in Duramax vehicles.

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

The CRD tech installed the pump yesterday, buttoned it up today at 8 am and fired it up. He took it for a good shake down run with multiple WOT accelerations, stop and go traffic, and a highway rip and declared it fixed. Upon parking it he decided to start it one last time.....bingo threw a couple of odd codes. I am not sure what the codes are but one was a "low boost" code and another "ground to fuel something or other" code. The smart diesel tech is letting their electrical guru take a look at it.

As a man with the same last name says it; Now for the rest of the story.

When I dropped of the new IP and spoke with the diesel guy he asked if it was ok if he replaced the fuel filter before he fired it up. Of course I replied that I would be pissed if he did not; which lead to me mentioning there is a leak in the fuel heater on the right hand (driver's side) electrical connection. He immediately perked up and said I bet that was the cause of the air ingestion. He questioned whether I had any fuel starvation or air symptoms, besides the odd slow start, no. Today the assistant service manager said that the heater was letting air through on both sides ( I assume through both electrical connectors) and that would have caused the pump to fail. This may be covered under warranty yet guys (flash back - the original jack-hole of a SM never did void the warranty...so far anyway). If it is covered the dealership where my pal got the pump will cut me a check for the cost and then hte two dealerships will figure out the paper work. Oh and if it is covered then the dealership will have to send the pump to DC and we will not have the opportunity to do a failure analysis. (Note: both my brother and uncle are mechanical engineers whom specialize in rotating equipment. Unc has been involved in many a failure analysis and expert witness at trials)

So where does that leave us, not sure. Did a piece of material from the modification become ingested in the pump? I was very careful, performed the job on the bench, flushed the adapter and filter head with D2 before installation, did not over tighten, and basically did all I could to make it a successful mod.
Does the leaking fuel head cause air ingestion over a long period of time and consequently pump failure? I only had the odd symptom of air and never any when I checked via the bleed screw and primer pump method. I pull a 3700# trailer in the Rocky Mountains with no trouble at all, so you would think a small air leak would be noticed under severe duty. The answer is clear as mud.

Whether I pay or DC pays is really not the issue anymore....will the badly designed fuel heater/filter head be the bane of more than my pump? Asymptomatically to boot!

I am pleased that this problem will be resolved in the next day or two, and I might not have to pay; but I am concerned for the future if the air ingestion is truly the cause of the pump failure. I will have it analyzed if I get the pump back...both by a Bosch tech and a P.eng or six.

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD 4x4 (57000 KM)
New Injector Pump
New ECU
New MAF, MAP, Crank and Cam sensors
New Fuel filter head/heater and wiring harness (x2)
New Glow Plug Control Module and wires to it
New EVIC (Only thing on this list covered by warranty)
New Fuel Rail