DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:11 pm

Just goes to show, best be careful when you "assume".

I'd still be interested in a detailed analysis of that pump, to know just what the mode of failure was, ie lack of lubrication due to air ingestion or foreign debris in the pump, to put this to bed once and for all.

Along the line of fuel heater failures, I spoke with Ranger1 yesterday. He had an entire new fuel filter assy installed a while back due to the fuel heater melting itself into oblivion. Guess what, a few days ago the same thing happened again, melted the plastic housing and this time shorted out the heating element.

He's had it with the stock filter assy. He's already ordered a Racor 490 Series fuel filter assy, equipped with primer pump, wif sensor, 200W fuel heater, and is in the process of tracking down a temp sensor that matches the electrical specs of the stock temp sensor.

He also ordered a centrifugal lift pump from Kennedy Diesel and will be installing that as well.

After the Suncoast TC is installed (hopefully next week, Bruce has been busy), I'm beginning to think I'll be doing the same. As the old saying goes, you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

bbertram · **Joined:** Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:17 pm **Posts:** 144

drharv wrote:

Stopped by the dealer yesterday to put the new registration sticker on the Heep and spoke with the ASM and the tech. Further investigation of the codes by the electronics guru revealed that the filter head leak had caused diesel to infiltrate the fuel heater wiring harness (insulation) and cause "corrosion and deterioration" and short "out the ECU". Wow. So the ECU is on order and is covered by DC ($1200 Canadian) and all of the associated labour involved. The diesel tech has labeled the fuel heater the cause for the failure of the pump/MPROP and the wiring harness/ECU. This is reminiscent of a VW issue with coolant deterioration in the wiring harness causing all sorts of weird shizzle. SO the filter had little or nothing to do with the whole deal.

Parts:

Injection Pump
Fuel Filter head
Fuel Filter
Associated copper washers for Banjo bolts
Fuel Heater wiring harness
ECU

Labour:
9 hours Diesel Tech
Lots Electric Tech

Getting pretty expensive for someone, hopefully not me. Most, if not all, of the diagnostic labour will be covered by DC.

Huh. Crazy.

This is very good to know. I hope this gets recorded by the dealer and if this happens to anyone of us in the future we can just quote this incident, with a number to look up, and presto, free fix. If not free then we sue or get a recall started? We could play this to be a potential fire hazzard.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:43 pm

Any one build or sell vending machines big enough to dispense a CRD Filter Head/Filter assembly so the Jeep Techs can get the parts faster? DC could use some!
This reminds me of the Window Regulators on my Wife's TDI New Beetle along with the power window switches. I did ask the dealer if they were going to install a vending machine for these items.
:lol:

Steve

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

Wow. I think I am really glad I disconnected the fuel heater. I have only had to burp air out of it once in 2 months since disconnecting it-- instead of a couple times a week. Since it is 110 right now (and the CRD temp guage often reads in the normal range before I have started the engine to go anywhere), I think I will leave it unplugged until winter. The lift pump, steel braided lines, and a new filter system are starting to sound like the way to go with this thing. Even more money...

I will wait until the investigation is done and DCX has to recall it. Dont really think their recall will be anything more than another bandaid fix, I bet it will be like the first Liberty ball joint recall, where instead of new ball joints they put a "heat shield" consisting of a piece of aluminum over the brakes and called it good.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:15 am

Got another e-mail from Ranger1 this afternoon. He's done a little digging on the web, trying to find out just what equipment they do put on European CRD's.

From what he found, including pics, apparently the Euro versions come stock with a Racor 230 series fuel filter assembly - plastic water drain bowl, primer pump, wif sensor, fuel temp sensor and heater screwed into the drain bowl from the bottom.

In his words, apparently Bosch underbid Racor for the fuel filter on the US version.

He also added "if I find out they're also putting a lift pump on the Euro version, I'll be somewhat pissed". He wouldn't be the only one. :evil:

I'll second Pablo's sentiments - I'm rather glad I've had my fuel heater unplugged ever since this deal about leaky/melted fuel heaters came up.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:34 am

So the big question is....can we source the Racor bits from Europe and how much will they cost? Given the dollar to Euro conversion...I'm better "arm" and "leg" are in the price somewhere.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 pm

When I was being educated in hydraulic systems the following was pounded into my head, "It is easier to control 1000 PSI (68 BAR) than a vacuum". With this in mind a low pressure ULSD/Biodiesel electric lift pump would be a sensible addition. This would also help keep out the air bubbles, and give us slow damp leaks we can repair. The DOT regulations will require the addition of a circuit to shut down the electric fuel pump in the event of the engine stops running. This would only become a factor in the event that one of us gets into a crash and burn accident and the Insurance Company would take the opportunity to wash their hands and not pay up. What GM did with the old VEGA was use a Normally Open (NC) oil pressure switch that turned off the electric fuel pump when the engine quit running. Other manufactures have come up with excessively complicated fuel pump relays that were designed by ad hock teams with each member having their own agenda.
We will need to factor in the following before installing any electric lift pumps:

1) Fuel pump control circuit to activate the pump before starting and shut off when the engine quits running for any reason. Opinion: Jeep who tends to be smarter than the rest of DC may have something in the fuse box already. My Liberty has the always live 12V power port, something lacking in most of the rest of the DC line up.

2) A low pressure external electric fuel pump (4-7 PSI) that is ULSD/Biodiesel compatible (not all are).
Comment: The gas Liberty fuel pump is designed to have high enough pressure to run the fuel injection system, this could screw up our injection systems.

3) A reliable low pressure external electric fuel pump that is better quality than the local discount auto parts store, perhaps marine grade.
I have had to many of the cheap ones fail on the old British Sports Cars of the 60s & 70s.

4) The closer we can get the low pressure electric fuel pump to the tank, the less likely we are to suck in air when the hoses get old and the clamps loose compression against the hose placed onto the barbed fittings.

Steve

crdmike · **Joined:** Tue May 16, 2006 7:25 pm **Posts:** 138

warp2diesel wrote:

When I was being educated in hydraulic systems the following was pounded into my head, "It is easier to control 1000 PSI (68 BAR) than a vacuum". With this in mind a low pressure ULSD/Biodiesel electric lift pump would be a sensible addition. This would also help keep out the air bubbles, and give us slow damp leaks we can repair. The DOT regulations will require the addition of a circuit to shut down the electric fuel pump in the event of the engine stops running. This would only become a factor in the event that one of us gets into a crash and burn accident and the Insurance Company would take the opportunity to wash their hands and not pay up. What GM did with the old VEGA was use a Normally Open (NC) oil pressure switch that turned off the electric fuel pump when the engine quit running. Other manufactures have come up with excessively complicated fuel pump relays that were designed by ad hock teams with each member having their own agenda.
We will need to factor in the following before installing any electric lift pumps:

1) Fuel pump control circuit to activate the pump before starting and shut off when the engine quits running for any reason. Opinion: Jeep who tends to be smarter than the rest of DC may have something in the fuse box already. My Liberty has the always live 12V power port, something lacking in most of the rest of the DC line up.

2) A low pressure external electric fuel pump (4-7 PSI) that is ULSD/Biodiesel compatible (not all are).
Comment: The gas Liberty fuel pump is designed to have high enough pressure to run the fuel injection system, this could screw up our injection systems.

3) A reliable low pressure external electric fuel pump that is better quality than the local discount auto parts store, perhaps marine grade.
I have had to many of the cheap ones fail on the old British Sports Cars of the 60s & 70s.

4) The closer we can get the low pressure electric fuel pump to the tank, the less likely we are to suck in air when the hoses get old and the clamps loose compression against the hose placed onto the barbed fittings.

Steve

Here's the Guy's to do it:

http://www.mwfi.com/fass/fass.html

tim wulf · **Posted:** Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:18 pm

I agree with your idea Mike and Steve.

My training in hydraulics stressed to limit the distance of the input (vacuum) side of the pump. Any restrictions or throttling of flow to the input side can vaporize the oil and cause cavitation damage to a pump in a very short order.

This could have been the cause of drharv's pump failure. And/ Or a small leak in the fuel filter head assembly could have been amplified to a cavatative state by the addition of the more restrictive 2 micron filter. As drharv stated; although the cat2 filter has a flow rate great enough to satisfy the needs of a big earth mover, the fuel is probaly being pushed thru by a big lift pump.

There is some info on the net about the pros and cons of 2 micron filtation. One of the cons being the need for a heavy duty reliable lift pump.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

tim wulf wrote:

I agree with your idea Mike and Steve.

My training in hydraulics stressed to limit the distance of the input (vacuum) side of the pump. Any restrictions or throttling of flow to the input side can vaporize the oil and cause cavitation damage to a pump in a very short order.

This could have been the cause of drharv's pump failure. And/ Or a small leak in the fuel filter head assembly could have been amplified to a cavatative state by the addition of the more restrictive 2 micron filter. As drharv stated; although the cat2 filter has a flow rate great enough to satisfy the needs of a big earth mover, the fuel is probaly being pushed thru by a big lift pump.

There is some info on the net about the pros and cons of 2 micron filtation. One of the cons being the need for a heavy duty reliable lift pump.

This all makes good sense to me. I think my cat filter will stay on the shelf until this is all worked out.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:50 pm

Here is a link for a system filter/pump system being developed for Common Rail Diesel engines: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_72983644
Racor Division of Parker Hannifin Corp. does produce a good product, but this system sounds expensive and is for 8L + engines. What I want is a reliable fuel pump (Facet pumps bring up bad dreams from my past experience) to feed the existing filter assembly and a control circuit. Even the smallest automotive electric fuel pumps exceed the volume requirements of our 2.8L CRDs.

Steve

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:25 pm

Here is a link for a candidate external fuel pump used on diesel vehicals for several years: http://www.partsamerica.com/productdeta ... 52&PTSet=A
What I like about this pump is that it has the right pressure to feed our filters, reasonable price, not a Facet pump, fits under the vehicle, and a proven design.
Would others post their opinions:

Steve

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:10 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

Here is a link for a system filter/pump system being developed for Common Rail Diesel engines: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_72983644
Racor Division of Parker Hannifin Corp. does produce a good product, but this system sounds expensive and is for 8L + engines. What I want is a reliable fuel pump (Facet pumps bring up bad dreams from my past experience) to feed the existing filter assembly and a control circuit. Even the smallest automotive electric fuel pumps exceed the volume requirements of our 2.8L CRDs.

Steve

Great article. The scary part it that it is from 2001.

fatweasel · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:29 am

Congratulations getting things figured out.

Just out of curiosity, which filter assembly is going back on the vehicle?

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

tim wulf wrote:

I agree with your idea Mike and Steve.

My training in hydraulics stressed to limit the distance of the input (vacuum) side of the pump. Any restrictions or throttling of flow to the input side can vaporize the oil and cause cavitation damage to a pump in a very short order.

This could have been the cause of drharv's pump failure. And/ Or a small leak in the fuel filter head assembly could have been amplified to a cavatative state by the addition of the more restrictive 2 micron filter. As drharv stated; although the cat2 filter has a flow rate great enough to satisfy the needs of a big earth mover, the fuel is probaly being pushed thru by a big lift pump.

There is some info on the net about the pros and cons of 2 micron filtation. One of the cons being the need for a heavy duty reliable lift pump.

Sounds really good but their is no difference in the restriction. The Cat has no more restriction that the OEM. The Cat is a synthetic media as well as twice as much surface area.

Greg

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:51 am

With either filter, or for any filter for that matter, the electric lift pump would add the benefit of not forcing the main common rail high pressure pump to put up with vacuum air leaks. Several of the high performance diesel shops sell electric lift pumps for the Cummins/Power Stroke/Duramax rigs, our Liberty CRDs would benefit as well. The only reason they don't put together a kit is the fact that there were only 10,000 produced and their market share for the kit would not justify the development costs. By having over the parts counter options, we can forgo the kit and just buy what we need to do the job.
Why didn't DC go with the electric lift pump? They though they could get away with out it.

Steve

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:56 am

warp2diesel wrote:

Why didn't DC go with the electric lift pump? They though they could get away with out it.

Steve

Because of $$$$$$ and they knew from the start it was a 2 year limited production tesst of sales potential and could have cared less about the people buying the CRD Liberty.

Jeger · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:40 am

I still want to know what the overseas versions have...is it the same or not? I wonder if that parts manual lists euro parts as well...gotta go check now.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:25 pm

After checking my 6059 page service manual for pictures that are, "Illustrative Drawings"; I have formed a hypothesis on fuel filter head vendors. Since the European version of the Liberty/Cherokee CRD was in production both before and after our North American versions, I would speculate that there is a good chance that they have both Bosch and Racor Filter heads in Europe. When companies build stuff they put components they do not produce themselves up for bid to keep the Lawyers out of their business. Since both Bosch and Racor met the specifications, price must have been the deciding factor. If Racor had a truck load of the components at a better price than Bosch, they would have gotten the order. Since the 10,000 North American Liberty CRDs was a small order, DC may have chosen to use only Bosch on this side of the pond. Since both filter assemblies had to be built to the same specifications, the debate is as meaningless as debating what is the best way to hold the air chuck to inflate a tire.

Steve

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:54 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

the debate is as meaningless as debating what is the best way to hold the air chuck to inflate a tire.

Steve

It's held in the right hand with the indix finger over the attachment point. :wink:

DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

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