DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:58 pm

oldnavy wrote:

It's held in the right hand with the indix finger over the attachment point. :wink:

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:30 pm

I PM'd jinstall early this morning, CRD member here residing in Germany, to see if he could get a picture and a part number for the Euro CRD fuel filter and head. He knows a guy with a 2.5 and he is going to check it out and get back to us. His CRD happens to be a NA model so he will need to look elsewhere.

RabidRdKill · **Posted:** Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:41 pm

I did a little digging and found that the 02, 03 & 04 Euro only diesels all used exactly the same Racor fuel filter/head assembly - DC P/N 53013307 as someone previoulsy described in pictures.

In 05, 06 (US and Euro) and 07 (Euro Only) all applications used the same 'new' part that we have all come to love and adore so much, P/N 52129237. No doubt our friends overseas will start seeing the same leaks we're experiencing on the later model vehicles.

This begats 5 questions:
1: Is the older assembly still available?
2: Is it better than the newer part?
3: Is it compatible with our 05 & 06 Libbys?
4: Can a US dealer order this part or do we need to find a friendly dealer in Europe?
& finally
5:Have we hijacked this thread and should a new one be started?

Edit: CowCatcher, this pics would be helpful to answer ? #3. Looks like we were both typing around the same time...

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:15 am

RabidRdKill wrote:

I did a little digging and found that the 02, 03 & 04 Euro only diesels all used exactly the same Racor fuel filter/head assembly - DC P/N 53013307 as someone previoulsy described in pictures.

In 05, 06 (US and Euro) and 07 (Euro Only) all applications used the same 'new' part that we have all come to love and adore so much, P/N 52129237. No doubt our friends overseas will start seeing the same leaks we're experiencing on the later model vehicles.

This begats 5 questions:
1: Is the older assembly still available?
2: Is it better than the newer part?
3: Is it compatible with our 05 & 06 Libbys?
4: Can a US dealer order this part or do we need to find a friendly dealer in Europe?
& finally
5:Have we hijacked this thread and should a new one be started?

Edit: CowCatcher, this pics would be helpful to answer ? #3. Looks like we were both typing around the same time...

You guys do need to start another thread for this.

US dealers can not order non US spec parts, you either have to go through a aftermarket supplier, or have someone over sea's do the buying and shipping for you.

drharv · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:27 pm

Well the new ECM was installed this morning....it still runs and the issue with some of the other wiring has resolved, BUT it threw another code. MAF sensor is shot, we now have to wait for one out of Toronto and that may take two or more days. The ugly thing is that we still do not know what will and what won't be covered under warranty, that is up to the District Service Manager. He makes his decisions based upon the information that the dealer service managers and technicians have provided. I hope he is an ex-tech and will give more credence to the mechanic.

Now to wait some more.

Time down for repairs: 16 days

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:45 pm

MAF out of commision is not the WORST thing...

...some of us call it the ORM :twisted:

Best of luck with everything...I'm going to bleed my filterhead now....

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:57 pm

When I was a Territory Service Manager (for IH ag equipment), I would listen to the dealer service personnel and analyze the parts and make a decision that would give the dealer the benefit of doubt. Most of the time it went in the direction that was favorable for the customer. Very obvious modifications such as After Market Turbo Chargers on a Naturally Aspirated Engines or jacking up the injection pump would prompt the,"HELL NO to warranty" response. Denying warranty on the basis of installing a non dealer filter, is an area that would require extensive damage evidence which was so clear that even a non technically trained Judge could make the determination. The District Service Manager is held accountable for his/her decisions on warranty issues, getting the company sued is not desirable. To me, this case is so obvious that the DSM would be wise to even make a partial settlement for a Liberty CRD with problems like this that is beyond warranty.
Other factors such as local politics weigh into the DSM decision if the evidence is weak (not this case). If you are a Church Deacon, Little League Coach, Local Business owner or manager, or Local Professional such as a Physician or Dentist; you will get a better outcome. Even though the DSM has to be politically correct to ISO 9000 standards, lets be honest, being the Chief Black Night of the Local Goth Club won't go as far as being a member of a Wildlife Conservation Club for ranking your local political influence. After all DC and the dealer are in business to sell cars, if treating you fair will help them, the DSM will help you out.
Based upon the evidence presented so far, I feel the outcome should go in favor of drharv. I will be surprised if it does not.

Regards,

Steve

drharv · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:24 pm

Thanks Steve,

That makes me feel a bit better, still I do no want to be into a $30000 Jeep to the tune of $4k++ without any fancy mods to show for it. Ah well, I have learned to much more prudent with my mods, take them off before sending it to a dealer, and not to fork with stuff untill the warranty is over.

BTW I am a chiropractor in Calgary, my wife has bribed everybody with home made cookies, and I will have the shop swimming in Friday beer if this goes my way.

Cheers,
Mike

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:06 pm

Mike: Beer contains a lot of B vitamins that have been shown to successfully treat people with milder cases of Paranoid Schizophrenia. I have gone so far as to hypothesize that the availability of beer in North America, South America, Europe, and most of Asia, is why we don't have the suicide bombers that are found in the middle east.

Another item you could enlighten your psycholigest friends with, is the fact that many Gear Heads self medicate them selves and treat their Manic Depression with Lithium (by absorbing it through the skin) which is used in the Lithium based grease that we use on our off road equipment. Should you ever have a patient who exhibits Manic Depressive behavior when he is away from his off road toys that use Lithium based grease, have a talk with his sweat heart and explain to her that the off road toys and the grease are cheaper and more fun than being diagnosed and labeled a Manic Depressive. In my former business, I had a customer who was a Professor in the Psychology Department who filed that one away so he could dazzle his colleges with his brilliance at cocktail parties.

I love treating medical problems with locally and readily available legal natural substances.

Regards,

Steve :lol:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:34 pm

Also the DM could pull up past repairs before the PO traded it in. Who knows, he may know your jeep well already :lol:

drharv · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:55 am

Now they need a new boost/air intake temperature sensor, which should be installed this morning, and then the decision as to who pays for what is made.

For those who care:

Idiot diagnostic time - $964
Injection Pump - $2600ish
ECU - $1200ish
MAF - No idea
AIT Sensor - No idea
Cam Position Sensor - $80
Fuel Filter Head - maybe $300?
Fuel Filter - $75
Hours of labour - has to be close to $1500 - $2000
Rental Car - $100
Towing - $90
Original Purchase price - $31000
Jars of whiskey - $150
Grey Hairs - 10s of thousands
Bad nights sleep - 25
Days out of commission - 28

Gettin kinda expensive for an inexpensive fuel sippin powerful SUV.

I should have it in my possession within 24-72 hours dependent upon the DC managers (Area, District, Service(x2), and Assistant Service).

Hoofta, as my wife's 85 year old Ukrainian grandmother says.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

I guess I should not complain about having to tighten a tail light screw.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:29 pm

vtdog wrote:

I guess I should not complain about having to tighten a tail light screw.

You think??? :wink:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:12 pm

Mike: Itemize all of the points and go on in to see the DC rep. I don't know why they are taking so long to solve the problems. In cases that are as bad as what you describe the manufacturer will buy the car back and provide another or fix it properly. There may be some internal company feud that they are using you for the ammo to fight the battle. Sometimes Service wants to teach Engineering a LESSON and this case of yours is starting to have the aroma. You will need to use your intuition and see if the DC rep has a boss engaged in an internal feud. If he/she does have a boss in an internal feud, you will need to communicate that you want a product that has the quality and reliability that Jeep has the reputation for. You may need to also communicate that you expect to cover NORMAL MAINTENANCE ITEMS, but not costly catastrophic failures. Don't expect the dealer to do any thing in covering the expense or give you a straight answer on the outcome, the DC rep may cut some of the labor charges that he/she will cover, but these should not be passed on to you. Applying the principals of Sun Tzu (The Art of War) you need to leave the DC rep a way out, but try to construct the OUT so it is best for you.

Regards,

Steve Sharp

drharv · **Posted:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:40 am

Unless the fates have something else in mind, I will be footing the bill on this one. It has surpassed district manager, been escalated to area manager who sent it to engineering (just like warp said) for a final decision. I hold little hope that the engineering department will admit that they have a flawed product and I will be stuck with a few more thousand dollar bill. I will obtain every part that was changed and will be consulting with experts in the automotive and legal fields. I am picking up the Heep today and will post an itemized list of parts and charges as soon as it is available. I figure the total outlay will be in the neighborhood of $6000 - $8000 for this fiasco.

A word form a man with crystal clear hindsight; remove all mods before taking your CRD to the dealer.

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:24 am

drharv wrote:

A word form a man with crystal clear hindsight; remove all mods before taking your CRD to the dealer.

And even wiser words..............prepare to become your own warranty station (as they say over on TDR) if you modify any component on your vehicle, whether it be an intake, programmer / downloader, exhaust, or perhaps even a fuel system modification.

Greg

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:21 am

On the one hand, I have no sympathy for those that do modifications that are known to break engines or vehicles, trying to pump up the engine to insane levels of HP and torque, and when the inevitable happens, trying to hide the evidence and fleece the powers that be for a warranty repair. They deserve what they get, including any applicable legal penalties.

On the other hand, I equally detest any dealer or company that goes out of their way to find the least excuse to avoid their obligations under the contract that they signed with the purchaser of the vehicle. In this case they also deserve what they get.

In between the two extremes, there's a big gray area. Unfortunately, common sense and engineering data most often isn't used in deciding cases in this area - the deciding factor is how much money is involved. And that's why we have lawyers.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:28 am

Mike: Check the consumer laws in your neck of the woods and talk to your lawyer, it may be time for the lawyer to at least write a letter. If they do not foot the bill in full you should get every part and any part they do not turn over to you is destroying evidence to effect the outcome of the case. Tossing your Cat filter or any other part like an "O" ring can be enough for your Lawyer to get them to pay for your repairs as well as his boat payment. Give the Lawyer a call today.

Regards,

Steve :!:

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:18 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

Mike: Check the consumer laws in your neck of the woods and talk to your lawyer, it may be time for the lawyer to at least write a letter. If they do not foot the bill in full you should get every part and any part they do not turn over to you is destroying evidence to effect the outcome of the case. Tossing your Cat filter or any other part like an "O" ring can be enough for your Lawyer to get them to pay for your repairs as well as his boat payment. Give the Lawyer a call today.

Regards,

Steve :!:

It would be great to recover this but my experience with diesel injection failures over the years is there is no warranty on this equipment. Diesel engine manufacturers know that in most cases, pump and/or injector failure is due to running water through (bad fuel) and/or running out of fuel (or sucking air). Detroit Diesel even writes injector failure out of their warranty completely now. Should you have a pump or injector failure that trashed your engine, the damage to the engine won't get covered either.

Your better angle is proving you have a chronic system leakage issue (sucking air) that DCX failed to diagnose or repair.

drharv · **Posted:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:09 pm

I read this on another Jeep forum somewhere - JEEP - Just Empty Every Pocket. Mrsdrharv just tallied the bills and this wreck of a situation cost $5993. Yup I had to pay for the entire shooting match, kinda makes a dent in the vacation budget for this summer.

Engineering in eastern Canada (Mississauga - just north of Detroit) has yet to make a decision on the case and I should know next week. I have been fairly naive thus far and have realized that there is no way that DC will freely admit to having a defective part; they must be forced by agencies like the NHTSA to replace defective parts. If the wankers in Ontario side for the Harvs, we will be refunded all of the cash. And monkeys will fly out of my booty.

My impressions thus far are as such:

1) If there is a problem that gets complicated the buck will be passed until the amorphous entity, head office, gets it and then all layers of management just shrug and cluck and sympathize but it is out of my hands. If one person had a pair and made a decision a great deal of the repair costs would have been avoided.

2) We got lucky for the aftermath (lawyer, consumer advocates, BBB, etc) because we had a twit of an ASM that told us that all of the electrical work would be covered under warranty. The SM cut about a g-note off the tab because of his junior.

3) DC has a very disturbing method of keeping it's higher ups cloaked in secrecy. You cannot find out the name or contact information for anyone that is above the dealer. We have a friend in the industry who found out the District Service Manager's name and when we popped it into the conversation the dealer SM nearly fell of his chair. If you call DC you will only be referred back to the dealer and your issue will be logged, there is no way to get to anyone else without inside information. Funny - you can find the direct contact for the president of DC though.

4) Never believe a f'in word that comes out of any service person's filthy pie hole. They want their department to make cash and that is the bottom line. The buddy who works for the local Audi dealership (partsman) gets a salary plus bonus and has assured me that that is standard in the industry. More parts sold...more cashola.

As I drove away, I realized that that vehicle never was quite right. With all the new fuel stuff it runs smoother, starts better, is quieter, and has more pep. Someone in a previous post mentioned that they thought the pump had issues well before I purchased the liberty, after the 30 km drive home I must concur. At least the $6k bought me a better running CRD.

So this leads to the questions, will small air leaks over a long time cabbage a few more pumps? Will the leaky fuel heater connections cause degradation in lots of wiring looms therefore causing ECU failures? Will all of these things happen slowly enough that we won't really notice until it is too late? Will DC ever recall the fuel filter unit? Please for all of our sakes, file a complaint with the NHTSA if you have had any air in the system, any mild seepage at the connections, or anything that may remotely be attributed to the POS filter head.

I have the vast majority of the replaced parts and will be sending my fuel heater to Mr. Steve Chan of the NHTSA for analysis. I will give the pump to a professional engineer who has a master's in rotating/reciprocating equipment. I want to find an ECU guru who can analyze what is affected inside the wee brain. And finally have an electrical engineer examine the wiring harness.

All of their data will be furnished to my lawyer and turned into very nasty lawyer-like words.

I need a drink.....

DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

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