More diesel Bashing

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

Perhaps everyone needs to get a login and flame this guy back to the hole he crawled out of. I can't believe how somone could state the B.S. this guy does.

See here for the so-called "The Truth about Diesels". It reads like something from Consumer Mis-Reports.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=4039

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:46 am

Pablo wrote:

Perhaps everyone needs to get a login and flame this guy back to the hole he crawled out of. I can't believe how somone could state the B.S. this guy does.

See here for the so-called "The Truth about Diesels". It reads like something from Consumer Mis-Reports.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=4039

Ya, theres some weird half truths and comparisons there. Like I have said before you need to shift paradigm when comparing diesel and petrol. Its not an apples to oranges comparison so you need to look at it from different viewpoints.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Wow, that article is a mess. He purposefully measured 'per gallon' to make his case rather than 'per mile' which makes a lot more sense(and would destroy his argument). His estimates of the value proposition are way off too, I did the math recently and comparing apples to apples(CRD vs. 3.7L gas version), when I factor in the fuel costs since Jan of 07(including the peroid when diesel was higher), the reduced service frequency(ie: fewer oil changes), and my mileage increases I should have saved the difference in engine price($1800) by the middle of next year. Economically this was one of the best decisions I have ever made...

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:35 am

Reflex wrote:

Wow, that article is a mess. He purposefully measured 'per gallon' to make his case rather than 'per mile' which makes a lot more sense(and would destroy his argument). His estimates of the value proposition are way off too, I did the math recently and comparing apples to apples(CRD vs. 3.7L gas version), when I factor in the fuel costs since Jan of 07(including the peroid when diesel was higher), the reduced service frequency(ie: fewer oil changes), and my mileage increases I should have saved the difference in engine price($1800) by the middle of next year. Economically this was one of the best decisions I have ever made...

exactly....per gallon.....shift the paradigm to "per mile" and its different.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:56 am

Interesting Chart:

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/inform ... asp#petrol

25 of 36 vehicles are DIESELS!!!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:34 pm

While I have nothing against a gasolene/electric hybrid that can get
better than 60 mpg, this guy appears to be twisting info around to
benefit his own argument.

First- this supercharger + turbo thing he mentions is not a NEW idea.
This same type of setup was common on Detroit 2-cycle DIESELS.

Second- why not compare a gasolene/electric to a diesel/electric. I'm
sure that in this case diesels will come out on top again.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:13 pm

I added a response and the powers to be edited it. They really don't like to be called out...they instructed me to respect the author...lol...I said he was "off base" and "irresponsible" but they left in the word "myopic"...too funny.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:48 pm

DarbyWalters wrote:

I added a response and the powers to be edited it. They really don't like to be called out...they instructed me to respect the author...lol...I said he was "off base" and "irresponsible" but they left in the word "myopic"...too funny.

Ya heavin forbid someone would point out the fallacies in his writing while he is on a soapbox....

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

What gets me is so many people listened to this guys article and believed everything he said. It looks like this writer is in a competition with Consumer Report's writers for who can tell the biggest wopper. I would like to see Honda bring a diesel or diesel/electric hybrid to the US. That would shut alot of these people up about diesels. Then we would just have to listen to how great Honda was for awhile. Even though this was an editorial, I expected it to at least be an informed one and it was not. I saw no journalistic integrity.

And what really gets me going is that these boneheads have assigned political identities to engine technologies. They seem to equate a diesel with "right wing" motor while the hybrids are "left wing environmental" motors. The science behind them is not important-- neither is furthering technology for either one or letting them compete with each other and other newer technologies. Their agenda is polarization and what they wish is for lock-step thinking.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

I go about 25 miles in my CRD on a gallon of diesel. The knuckleheads around me in Suburbans, Armadas, Tundras, etc burn up a gallon every 12 miles. Now explain to me who is polluting more

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:44 am

Pablo wrote:

What gets me is so many people listened to this guys article and believed everything he said. It looks like this writer is in a competition with Consumer Report's writers for who can tell the biggest wopper. I would like to see Honda bring a diesel or diesel/electric hybrid to the US. That would shut alot of these people up about diesels. Then we would just have to listen to how great Honda was for awhile. Even though this was an editorial, I expected it to at least be an informed one and it was not. I saw no journalistic integrity.

And what really gets me going is that these boneheads have assigned political identities to engine technologies. They seem to equate a diesel with "right wing" motor while the hybrids are "left wing environmental" motors. The science behind them is not important-- neither is furthering technology for either one or letting them compete with each other and other newer technologies. Their agenda is polarization and what they wish is for lock-step thinking.

Agreed, I hate when someone makes a polarizing statement like that during a discussion or argument. When you make a polarizing statement ie "with us or against us," "america love it or leave," or my favorite "my country, right or wrong." You really leave no room for rational debate, it seems as soon as you set that precident the discussion only goes downhill for there.

While the article is infuriating, I will continue to use my vast trivial knowledge to convert people that know less on the subject and are unable to bring any objections to my statements as converts to my way of thinking. Forget trying to bring anyone in from the other side of the issue, Ill just convert an army of people that dont know any better or are otherwise uneducated on the subject.

That'll work.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Sir Sam wrote:

Pablo wrote:

What gets me is so many people listened to this guys article and believed everything he said. It looks like this writer is in a competition with Consumer Report's writers for who can tell the biggest wopper. I would like to see Honda bring a diesel or diesel/electric hybrid to the US. That would shut alot of these people up about diesels. Then we would just have to listen to how great Honda was for awhile. Even though this was an editorial, I expected it to at least be an informed one and it was not. I saw no journalistic integrity.

And what really gets me going is that these boneheads have assigned political identities to engine technologies. They seem to equate a diesel with "right wing" motor while the hybrids are "left wing environmental" motors. The science behind them is not important-- neither is furthering technology for either one or letting them compete with each other and other newer technologies. Their agenda is polarization and what they wish is for lock-step thinking.

Agreed, I hate when someone makes a polarizing statement like that during a discussion or argument. When you make a polarizing statement ie "with us or against us," "america love it or leave," or my favorite "my country, right or wrong." You really leave no room for rational debate, it seems as soon as you set that precident the discussion only goes downhill for there.

While the article is infuriating, I will continue to use my vast trivial knowledge to convert people that know less on the subject and are unable to bring any objections to my statements as converts to my way of thinking. Forget trying to bring anyone in from the other side of the issue, Ill just convert an army of people that dont know any better or are otherwise uneducated on the subject.

That'll work.

I fully understand you on this. I frequently run into this conundrum on the biofuel debate(as well as many issues in the tech industry, where I am a developer). It feels like the manner of debate favors simply converting the uneducated into zealots rather than teaching them a thing or two about a given topic. If you give them too much information, it can be exploited by 'the other side' due to its incompleteness to support their argument.

Its sad really. We should be working to raise the general level of education and not be penalized for trying to teach. But I suppose that would be the case in a fair world, and if there is one thing I have learned in growing from a teenager to an adult, its that the world is not fair. Only people have that capability.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:33 am

Reflex wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

Pablo wrote:

What gets me is so many people listened to this guys article and believed everything he said. It looks like this writer is in a competition with Consumer Report's writers for who can tell the biggest wopper. I would like to see Honda bring a diesel or diesel/electric hybrid to the US. That would shut alot of these people up about diesels. Then we would just have to listen to how great Honda was for awhile. Even though this was an editorial, I expected it to at least be an informed one and it was not. I saw no journalistic integrity.

And what really gets me going is that these boneheads have assigned political identities to engine technologies. They seem to equate a diesel with "right wing" motor while the hybrids are "left wing environmental" motors. The science behind them is not important-- neither is furthering technology for either one or letting them compete with each other and other newer technologies. Their agenda is polarization and what they wish is for lock-step thinking.

Agreed, I hate when someone makes a polarizing statement like that during a discussion or argument. When you make a polarizing statement ie "with us or against us," "america love it or leave," or my favorite "my country, right or wrong." You really leave no room for rational debate, it seems as soon as you set that precident the discussion only goes downhill for there.

While the article is infuriating, I will continue to use my vast trivial knowledge to convert people that know less on the subject and are unable to bring any objections to my statements as converts to my way of thinking. Forget trying to bring anyone in from the other side of the issue, Ill just convert an army of people that dont know any better or are otherwise uneducated on the subject.

That'll work.

I fully understand you on this. I frequently run into this conundrum on the biofuel debate(as well as many issues in the tech industry, where I am a developer). It feels like the manner of debate favors simply converting the uneducated into zealots rather than teaching them a thing or two about a given topic. If you give them too much information, it can be exploited by 'the other side' due to its incompleteness to support their argument.

Its sad really. We should be working to raise the general level of education and not be penalized for trying to teach. But I suppose that would be the case in a fair world, and if there is one thing I have learned in growing from a teenager to an adult, its that the world is not fair. Only people have that capability.

Agreed. One of my friends(who also happens to be on the other side of the spectrum politically from me, hence there are some things we just dont talk about) wasn't completely closed to the idea of diesels. Early on when I hadnt known him very long during finals week I gave him a ride home, we talked cars after he saw my jeep, he brought up the subject that he was getting a honda passport, I told him that I had had one(isuzu rodeo) and that I thought it was a decent vehicle overall, but that I wasnt too impressed with the v6 in it. He went on to ask why and I explained to him my thoughts on it, basically with that engine even at 90k miles I wasnt impressed by the oil consumption, it blew smoke at startup, and I just didnt think it was the type of engine that would run forever.

Well the next time I saw him(beginning of fall semester) he said he had gotten the car, and a few weeks later the v6 died on him. So while I wasnt a nay sayer on it, in his mind I had made a rational note of the engine not being the best......and then his died. This set me up in the position of automotive knowledge dominance over any other source he may have had.

So in his mind I was a reasonible and good source of information, so when the subject eventually turned to diesels he was willing and ready to listen, he had most of the preconceived notions about diesel as your average joe. I gave him my throwndown on it in terms of emissions and such. So I was able to challenge his preconceived notions about diesels being "loud" "dirty" "stinky" etc, the point was amplified because just beside us was a TDI, the conversation then turned the the grand CRD coming out with the bluetec engine and how it used different emissions controls to meet emissions.

Anyways the whole point out of this was that I was able to set myself up as a trusted source(much like if someone where reading the article in a paper or online), and then give a well rounded viewpoint(well, as much as I possibly could explain both sides and still be on one side myself).

Now while he doesnt have the same profeciency in the subject matter as me, at least if he ever comes across the same subject his mind wont be cluttered up by someone twisting information to suit their agenda(which is something we all do of course, the question is how objective we can remain overall).

jinstall · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:08 am

I personally did not like the way he came across labeling Germans trying to take over the world with diesel products. Sorry but there is a reason it is so popular here. Also the diesel market is HEAVILY taxed as of this year.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:33 pm

jinstall wrote:

I personally did not like the way he came across labeling Germans trying to take over the world with diesel products. Sorry but there is a reason it is so popular here. Also the diesel market is HEAVILY taxed as of this year.

Well another thing he says(and I paraphrase) "diesel isn't heavily taxed(read subsidized) in europe making it popular"

Uh right, and hybrids aren't?

New hybrid purchases(and only new purchases) count for a tax break, additionally in california they qualify for "clean air access" passes for the HOV lane.

I imagine if hybrids weren't subsized in this way we would see many fewer ones out there. What remains to be seen are what the costs of long term use will be with a hybrid. Battery replacement isnt a carbon free process, what I would be interested to see are figures for the average battery replacement intervals, and then how much emissons are generated out of the production and recycling process. I know its much harder to account for those emissions, but there has to be some. then given those emissions, the average life of the batteries when replacement is required, and the overage number of miles driven per battery pack(which may be the main factor, ie 100k miles before replacement etc) then take those emissions on the average for miles driven, and use that to calculate the overall emissions of the vehicle.

if we are going to calculate the emissions of a hybrid per mile driven, I want to see the emissions of the replacement battery packs.

That or we just agree that when the battery goes you buy a new car, so you can keep your emissions the same as advertised.

Displaced emissions is still emissions.

danoid · **Posted:** Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:04 pm

I'm an engineer that works on hybrid vehicles. I believe that the simpler solution is the better solution. Therefore, I drive diesels.

The beauty of full hybrids like the Prius is that they decouple engine rpm from transmission output rpm. The engine simply serves as a torque source. There is no better source of torque today than a diesel engine.

This guys argument about how gas engines can be improved should be obviously silly. Why improve a gas engine to be as good as a diesel, when you already have a diesel? It's taken gas engines nearly 40 years to recover from emissions controls. In about 15 years diesel engines have not just cleaned their emissions, they've become incredibly more powerful - with probably a tenth of the development effort that was spent on the gassers.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:06 am

One gent up in VA that I've known for a few years, thru a common interest in electric vehicles, used to work for GE in their electric vehicle department before "Neutron Jack" started wielding his axe.

He was part of GE's team that worked with the OEM's on the PNGV program started by the Clinton administration - a 10 year program to develop an 80 mpg full size sedan.

He said that at the end of the program, the Big Three all submitted prototypes with the same basic powerplant -

A diesel-electric hybrid. :shock:

As far as battery pack replacement, imagine having to pay for a replacement pack outside of warranty. Let's just say it would make the cost of a new injection pump pale by comparison.

I know some gents in the EV community that bought Honda Insight hybrids when they first came out in 2000. The battery pack in those small beasts is nothing more than 120 NiMh D cell flashlight batteries, basically the same as what you can buy at Radio Shack, wired in series inside a sealed container with all the appropriate electronics.

2 or 3 years back some of the Insight owners were already past the 80K mile warranty on the battery pack, and reporting that the batteries were starting to get weak.

When they checked with their local Honda dealer about a replacement battery pack, being outside of warranty they were quoted $5500 plus labor. :shock:

Granted, that was for an entirely new drop-in battery pack ASSEMBLY, but still - that's for a relatively small battery pack using a commonly available battery cell size/design. What's it going to run for some of the more advanced hybrids using a one-off, unique, or proprietary battery cell design?

Not many people are going to have the money available, or be willing to put that much into a vehicle that already has 80K to 100K miles or better on it. They're going to dump it like a hot potato.

In this case, it looks like they may have achieved what I've heard many people for decades accuse the OEM's of trying to do - build a vehicle with a built-in finite lifetime where you have little choice but to buy a new one every 10 years/100K miles.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:40 am

Danoid:

Without getting you into trouble, can I ask you what is in the works?

A couple of guys out my way have mofdified their hybrids to become plug-ins. All for fun, of course, but they seem to work nicely and get them well over the 100mpg mark for most of their commuting (this is, of course, counting the electricity as "free"). Amortizing the extra batteries and electronics over the expected life of the batteries, they don't feel they are saving a whole heap of money at $3/gallon gas. I even sold my last totalled TDI to some clever boys who are maing it into a diesel-electric hybrid.

It DOES seem that if these guys can do it pretty easily. And 100mpg s certainly a show-stopper. So, you boys up in Michigan must be up to something plug-in 'cause it sure looks easy enough? A couple of concept cars could really improve the Big 3 image.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:26 am

I have always wondered why these vehicles don't have solar panels as a roof...sits in the parking lot and charges up for free...drives during the day and charges up for free.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:02 pm

You'd be lucky to get 200 watts of power if you covered your roof with solar panels. The battery packs in these beast store on the order of KILOWATTS. You'd have to leave it parked for a month to recharge the battery pack via that alone.

200 watts of power for one hour equals 200 watt hours, or 0.2 kilowatt hours. The golf cart battery pack in my pickup conversion stores at least 10 kilowatt hours of useable power, and that's enough to power it for 40 to 50 miles. It uses roughly 250 watt hours per mile steady state at highway speed, or 4 miles per kilowatt hour. The 200 watt hours from one hour of charging with the solar panels in the above example wouldn't be enough to power it for even one mile.

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