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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:14 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
Your speedo should be reading FASTER than you are actually going...


Explain. :?:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:20 am 
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With stock sized tires, we seem to all have speedos that are optimistic and odometers that are pessimistic. The speedos read faster than actual speed and the Odometers read less than actually traveled. (~4% error on each)

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Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:21 am 
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That has been my observation too, but about 2% by my GPS.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:01 am 
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My speedometer reads SLOWER than I am actually going. My odometer reads 2 percent LOWER than distance traveled. Both are verified by multiple methods including GPS. While accelerating my speedometer also lags reality a little since it is an analog gauge following instructions from the computer that takes continuous but discrete readings to calculate speed. All this takes a smidgen of time, so my 0-60 time is arguably a smidgen better than 10.6 seconds which is in the ball park of the road tests that I read (ignoring Consumer Reports :roll:). The 0-60 times are just observations that are subject to Timmaah! error. All I know for sure is that a CRD that has not been castrated will cremate the tire(s). :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:38 pm 
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InMotion has my ECU and they're in the process of working on it. It turns out that they hadn't seen the particular software in it yet, so they had to send the file to Germany to be updated. The last TSB or flash I had was March 2006 at the latest, I don't even know which number it was, but InMotion didn't have it on the shelf so to speak, so it'll be an extra day to get it back.

Doesn't matter though, as the shop where I got the dyno runs done is swamped with transmission work and can't get me back on the dyno until the 11th of sept.

James at InMotion said he was interested in seeing my before and after runs, too.

I'll keep you posted with butt-dyno results when the ECU comes back.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:53 am 
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I got the ECU back in and first impressions are good. The power increase is definitely noticeable. Especially at low rpm with the TC locked in overdrive, accelarating out of the hole without downshifting goes a lot quicker now. Turbo lag is reduced if you roll on the throttle, but like everyone here has noticed, there is still a huge lag if you just stomp it from a dead stop. Most impressive was that it knocked off 1.1 seconds from my 0-60 time according to my g-tech.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:41 pm 
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The InMotion tune has been working great for me. I'm happy with it except of the hit in fuel mileage. It has cost me about 3mpg.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:37 pm 
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chadhargis wrote:
The InMotion tune has been working great for me. I'm happy with it except of the hit in fuel mileage. It has cost me about 3mpg.


did you go with the eco or power tune?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:05 pm 
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I wanted the Eco tune, but the guy I was working with said the "Level2" tune was better and wouldn't hurt my fuel mileage if I could "keep my foot out of it". Guess I can't. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:42 pm 
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When I got back from the test drive my evic read 28.3mpg. We'll see how that compares with hand calculated numbers over a longer interval, but its a few mpg higher than normal.

Sir Sam, we should meet up and put our Heeps head to head!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:09 pm 
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Guys with inmotion, are you concerned about shelling your tranny now? That is the only concern keeping me from doing it after the Jeep piggy bank fills back up...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:24 pm 
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Yes, I'm concerned about the torque converter specifically. I plan to upgrade to the suncoast unit and the revised front pump.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:42 pm 
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CATCRD wrote:
When I got back from the test drive my evic read 28.3mpg. We'll see how that compares with hand calculated numbers over a longer interval, but its a few mpg higher than normal.

Sir Sam, we should meet up and put our Heeps head to head!


Not my Jeep the old Mans Jeep, its in Socal.

CATCRD wrote:
Yes, I'm concerned about the torque converter specifically. I plan to upgrade to the suncoast unit and the revised front pump.


When you pull the trans let me know and I can give a hand, it would be nice to have yours as the guinea pig for doing ours.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:27 am 
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Sir Sam wrote:
CATCRD wrote:
When I got back from the test drive my evic read 28.3mpg. We'll see how that compares with hand calculated numbers over a longer interval, but its a few mpg higher than normal.

Sir Sam, we should meet up and put our Heeps head to head!


Not my Jeep the old Mans Jeep, its in Socal.

CATCRD wrote:
Yes, I'm concerned about the torque converter specifically. I plan to upgrade to the suncoast unit and the revised front pump.


When you pull the trans let me know and I can give a hand, it would be nice to have yours as the guinea pig for doing ours.


I have a lift in my garage, but no trans jack. Plus I've never pulled a tranny before. I've been debating about doing it myself or just shelling out the $600 for the install.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:33 pm 
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CATCRD wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
CATCRD wrote:
When I got back from the test drive my evic read 28.3mpg. We'll see how that compares with hand calculated numbers over a longer interval, but its a few mpg higher than normal.

Sir Sam, we should meet up and put our Heeps head to head!


Not my Jeep the old Mans Jeep, its in Socal.

CATCRD wrote:
Yes, I'm concerned about the torque converter specifically. I plan to upgrade to the suncoast unit and the revised front pump.


When you pull the trans let me know and I can give a hand, it would be nice to have yours as the guinea pig for doing ours.


I have a lift in my garage, but no trans jack. Plus I've never pulled a tranny before. I've been debating about doing it myself or just shelling out the $600 for the install.


The man has a lift but no jack! Ha!

Personally I've never gotten a chance to use a lift so I've just been working under the car, Ive done plenty of work like that, just never on the liberty, it would be nice if we could get a writeup with pics and such out there for people who want to do it on their saturday, though if that does happen with yours eventually Ill take pics and such when we do the old mans.

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 Post subject: Dyno results
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:41 pm 
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I hate to burst some bubbles but the the SAE correction factor of 1.22 was almost certainly incorrectly applied. That number sounds correct for a NA engine at 5000', but almost all modern turbocharged engines (even gasoline) maintain sea level output up to 10,000' density altitude (and possibly higher).
It would be foolish to go to the trouble of equiping a modern engine with a turbo that could only produce max boost at sea level and then immed dropped off with altitude. I'm pretty certain the VM 2.8 ECU commands the VGV's to produce max boost(at max throttle, 26psi I think) regardless of altitude. Boost would only be cut back if EGT or some other limit was exceeded. Another limit may be compressor stall(transonic impellor) at extreme altitude/compressor speed.
My point is, if we take CATCRD's numbers and extrapolate the uncorrected data we get:
160 rwhp/1.22= 131 rwhp
340 rwtrq/1.22= 279 rwtrq
These numbers are close to some other posted lower dyno results, and if the factory numbers are correct(or even close), drivetrain loss is almost dead on. ORM, fuel mods/additves and cetain diffs would easily account minor result differences.

Even older diesels with no wastegate generally had some altitude compensation because a diesel can operate with excess air. As boost fell with height gain, power would hardlly change until critical alt was reached, and then a sense line upstream of turbo output to the fuel control would cut back fuel as boost fell to prevent overfueling(one method).
Power in modern diesels prob only varies 1-2% with alt, and can actually increase with alt slightly as system efficiency(induction and exhaust) rises and then falls as height increses.
Air density depends on pressure and temperature(humidity a distant third factor), so power might fall a little with OAT increase, but I suspect in diesel engines, where detonation is the normal mode of combustion, the ECU compensates with a tad extra boost as long as EGTs are in order. Gasoline engines ECUs must avoid knock so they may be more charge air temp sensitive.
Another factor I've noticed in diesel tech papers is fuel temp (and of course fuel cetane) is always stated in output specfics and appears to be the major factor in engine output. I do not completely understand why but I suspect fuel temp affects actual observed cetane number. I seem to get better mileage when the summer weather hits 30+ celsius and the crd is warmed up by the time I'm out of the garage. Warm up is a factor, summer fuel is DEFINITLY a factor and maybe higher fuel temp as well.
OK I'm done. Fire away.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:33 pm 
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I tend to agree. A turbocharged vehicle will have much less power loss at altitude than an NA vehicle. Some of the correction factor was due to high temperature, but most from the altitude. I was not running a boost gage, so we'll never know for sure. That's why I stated I'm much more interested in results before and after the Inmotion flash.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:07 pm 
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I wondered if the original dyno numbers were supposed to be at the flywheel and not at the rear wheels. Otherwise 340 at the rear wheels seems more than a bit high.

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Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:08 pm 
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No, their software doesn't try to factor in drivetrain loss, as it varies so widely. It just calculates a correction factor based on ambient air conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Dyno results
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:02 pm 
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mabelaker wrote:
I hate to burst some bubbles but the the SAE correction factor of 1.22 was almost certainly incorrectly applied. That number sounds correct for a NA engine at 5000', but almost all modern turbocharged engines (even gasoline) maintain sea level output up to 10,000' density altitude (and possibly higher).
It would be foolish to go to the trouble of equiping a modern engine with a turbo that could only produce max boost at sea level and then immed dropped off with altitude. I'm pretty certain the VM 2.8 ECU commands the VGV's to produce max boost(at max throttle, 26psi I think) regardless of altitude. Boost would only be cut back if EGT or some other limit was exceeded. Another limit may be compressor stall(transonic impellor) at extreme altitude/compressor speed.
My point is, if we take CATCRD's numbers and extrapolate the uncorrected data we get:
160 rwhp/1.22= 131 rwhp
340 rwtrq/1.22= 279 rwtrq
These numbers are close to some other posted lower dyno results, and if the factory numbers are correct(or even close), drivetrain loss is almost dead on. ORM, fuel mods/additves and cetain diffs would easily account minor result differences.

Even older diesels with no wastegate generally had some altitude compensation because a diesel can operate with excess air. As boost fell with height gain, power would hardlly change until critical alt was reached, and then a sense line upstream of turbo output to the fuel control would cut back fuel as boost fell to prevent overfueling(one method).
Power in modern diesels prob only varies 1-2% with alt, and can actually increase with alt slightly as system efficiency(induction and exhaust) rises and then falls as height increses.
Air density depends on pressure and temperature(humidity a distant third factor), so power might fall a little with OAT increase, but I suspect in diesel engines, where detonation is the normal mode of combustion, the ECU compensates with a tad extra boost as long as EGTs are in order. Gasoline engines ECUs must avoid knock so they may be more charge air temp sensitive.
Another factor I've noticed in diesel tech papers is fuel temp (and of course fuel cetane) is always stated in output specfics and appears to be the major factor in engine output. I do not completely understand why but I suspect fuel temp affects actual observed cetane number. I seem to get better mileage when the summer weather hits 30+ celsius and the crd is warmed up by the time I'm out of the garage. Warm up is a factor, summer fuel is DEFINITLY a factor and maybe higher fuel temp as well.
OK I'm done. Fire away.


Ha, I knew it, theres always one! Thats a typical correct factor we see here, regardless if it was incorrectly applied we will at least be able to make a comparison between the two PCMs.

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