I have a survey from Jeep

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:58 pm

I have a survey for the CRD, other than the missing lift pump, what other thing I should complain about.
This is what I think of writing:

Final Draft

I had put up almost 2 years with fuel problem. I took it back to the dealer several times for air in the fuel head. It happens when my vehicle sits overnight with the fuel head under vacuum and air separates from the fuel causing an air pocket on the top of the fuel filter head. The mechanic call Star Service and they tell him to flash the computer. This did not fix the problem. I took it back again and the transmission was flashed again. I ask the mechanic why Star thinks flashing the transmission would fix a fuel problem with air in it. He told me when there is a difficult problem that he has to do what Star tells him.

I have been a mechanic for 35+ years with 28.5 of that with a County Government. I know when an engine is starving for fuel because the engine would cut on and off and shake the vehicle. The dealer thought the toque convertor was going bad (service writer not mechanic) but I told them I'm sure it wasn't bad. I told him that I believe that in the long run that with the engine jerking the drive train will break the toque convertor and when replaced the original problem will still be there

I knew that it needed a lift pump but I put up with the air in the fuel system afraid to modify the fuel system because of warranty. Recently I found out that the vehicle was already wired for the lift pump but the bean counters wanted to save a few dollars so it was not installed.

Well I had enough when I learn that and know it not the dealers fault, it’s Daimler Chrysler fault in Ohio where they built this thing. I install a Facet 40109 lift pump to the factory wiring and relay marked primer pump (same as lift pump) and tee in an air bleed at the top of the fuel filter head to the return. Now my Jeep runs better than it ever did, transmission is smoother, and has more power because it's no longer starving for fuel.

From what I hear from other people from forums on the internet, many are fed up with their vehicles and had sued are going to sue to the point you may have to buy back many of the 11,000 vehicles sold with this problems. How much money was lost because by Daimler Chrysler trying to patch this problem because some bean counter didn't want anyone knows he made a mistake? After a few wasted services to the dealer I fixed the problem for less than $100 retail. You should fire that bean counter and give all Jeep Liberty CRD owners a lift pump because it will cost you less in the long run. If Jeep is planning to sell anymore diesel they need to put more quality in the vehicle. Just look how many Grand Cherokee CRD's are sitting on the showroom floor not selling and try to figure out why. Why would we upgrade when you don’t care enough to build the Liberty CRD right? We are afraid to buy them and the dealer is afraid to sell them.

kccrd · **Joined:** Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:35 pm **Posts:** 267

What web site can I see this lift pump at and where is the factory wiring for the lift pump? Thanks.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:36 pm

kccrd wrote:

What web site can I see this lift pump at and where is the factory wiring for the lift pump? Thanks.

We have a thread for that

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... c&start=15

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:24 pm

Don't forget to complain about a CCV system that dumps oil into the intake system - a Provent cost me $100 - a correct system would have cost Jeep less than that.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:36 pm

I think that I would start by telling them that you love it and you would buy another except that you have little faith that they will support it and that they chose to engineer the fuel system, the emmissions system and the transmission incorrectly leaving it up to the owner to do at risk of voiding their warranty. Then I would list the issues starting with the poor fuel filter and head, the air in the fuel that could have been solved with a proper lift pump, the poorly designed air box, etc.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:43 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

I think that I would start by telling them that you love it and you would buy another except that you have little faith that they will support it and that they chose to engineer the fuel system, the emmissions system and the transmission incorrectly leaving it up to the owner to do at risk of voiding their warranty. Then I would list the issues starting with the poor fuel filter and head, the air in the fuel that could have been solved with a proper lift pump, the poorly designed air box, etc.

Oh yeah, there is alot to cover, I know I can cover the fuel system but I give the address if others care to vent:

DaimlerChrysler
Research Department
P.O. Box 10072
Toledo, Ohio 43682-4121

Fulltimer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:11 am

I'm not trying to offend you in any way but I hope you proofread your letter to Chrysler. You have a lot of mistakes in your post that are fine on here but not in a business letter.

Terry

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:23 am

Fulltimer wrote:

I'm not trying to offend you in any way but I hope you proofread your letter to Chrysler. You have a lot of mistakes in your post that are fine on here but not in a business letter.

Terry

I'm not offended but rather amused. I never claimed to be an profressional office worker, but only a mechanic. If Chrysler is offended by my low shop talk, they can use that excuse not to listen as usually. I'm a knuckel buster, not a pen pusher. :mrgreen:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:41 am

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

Fulltimer wrote:

I'm not trying to offend you in any way but I hope you proofread your letter to Chrysler. You have a lot of mistakes in your post that are fine on here but not in a business letter.

Terry

I'm not offended but rather amused. I never claimed to be an profressional office worker, but only a mechanic. If Chrysler is offended by my low shop talk, they can use that excuse not to listen as usually. I'm a knuckel buster, not a pen pusher. :mrgreen:

Unless the person reading your letter realizes who their customers are it will not get to somebody who cares :cry:

Unfortunatly you and I and our kind are in the minority. Most new car buyers are likely younger and colledge educated but can't turn a wrench :roll:

Right now I could not even apply for the job I retired from :roll:

Can you mention something about detuning the engine for the whimpy torque converter? When pulling a trailer that's well within the limits, any grade causes it to shift out of overdrive and unlock the torque converter causing the engine to over rev and speed to drop.

Other things like the CCV hoses are minor and they already have better replacements.

Thanks for your effort.
Joe

PS. When I was in grade school there was a course called "effort" and we were graded on it

I always got A's in that one :lol:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:52 am

kccrd wrote:

What web site can I see this lift pump at and where is the factory wiring for the lift pump? Thanks.

Re factory wiring. I can't find the post but If you look there is a fuse and a relay for "primer pump" in the power distribution box out by the battery. The wire changes colors a couple of times and ends up under the carpet underneath the left rear seat. As I understand it the seat must be removed to expose the wire. I suspect BlackLibertyCRD just tapped in up front in the PD box.

If you have any warranty left you'll want to make any additions so they can be quickly and completly removed in case of trouble before it's taken to a dealer :wink:

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:52 am

Joe Romas wrote:

kccrd wrote:

What web site can I see this lift pump at and where is the factory wiring for the lift pump? Thanks.

Re factory wiring. I can't find the post but If you look there is a fuse and a relay for "primer pump" in the power distribution box out by the battery. The wire changes colors a couple of times and ends up under the carpet underneath the left rear seat. As I understand it the seat must be removed to expose the wire. I suspect BlackLibertyCRD just tapped in up front in the PD box.

If you have any warranty left you'll want to make any additions so they can be quickly and completly removed in case of trouble before it's taken to a dealer :wink:

Joe,
I just used number 5 termial on the relay and the nut on the ground battery cable. I don't care if the dealer knows or Chrysler for the matter for I'm almost out of warranty anyway. I can change it back to stock without a trace.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:00 am

Joe Romas wrote:

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

Fulltimer wrote:

I'm not trying to offend you in any way but I hope you proofread your letter to Chrysler. You have a lot of mistakes in your post that are fine on here but not in a business letter.

Terry

I'm not offended but rather amused. I never claimed to be an profressional office worker, but only a mechanic. If Chrysler is offended by my low shop talk, they can use that excuse not to listen as usually. I'm a knuckel buster, not a pen pusher. :mrgreen:

Unless the person reading your letter realizes who their customers are it will not get to somebody who cares :cry:

Unfortunatly you and I and our kind are in the minority. Most new car buyers are likely younger and colledge educated but can't turn a wrench :roll:

Right now I could not even apply for the job I retired from :roll:

Can you mention something about detuning the engine for the whimpy torque converter? When pulling a trailer that's well within the limits, any grade causes it to shift out of overdrive and unlock the torque converter causing the engine to over rev and speed to drop.

Other things like the CCV hoses are minor and they already have better replacements.

Thanks for your effort.
Joe

PS. When I was in grade school there was a course called "effort" and we were graded on it

I always got A's in that one :lol:

I'm going to pull a 3,000 lb trailer cross country a month from now. I am betting with my mod it will pull better and not shift out of gear as much as before. The mountain passed OK to downshift but not small hills. I think the computer knows when a engine is starving for fuel under load and downshift to make up for it. It has alot to do with throttle position and the speed you are going.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:48 am

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

I'm going to pull a 3,000 lb trailer cross country a month from now. I am betting with my mod it will pull better and not shift out of gear as much as before. The mountain passed OK to downshift but not small hills. I think the computer knows when a engine is starving for fuel under load and downshift to make up for it. It has alot to do with throttle position and the speed you are going.

I'll be towing my 3200# TT in a week and a half. I think I'll get a pump this week to experement. I agree 100% about actual throttle position and what the computer has to do to maintain that. It's masked from us but the few symptoms like surging when letting off, taking a couple of extra revolutions to start, no guts on a full throttle start and loosing power on hills are all good indications of air to me.

Joe

GoghUA · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:58 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

I think that I would start by telling them that you love it and you would buy another except that you have little faith that they will support it

I second that! I really do love this Jeep seriously, I want to keep this thing but, I am unfortunately about to sell it for the following reasons...

1) I took it to the dealer to diagnose a noise it was making. They told me it was a belt and replaced the belt. Then when I went to pick it up, it was still making the noise. So they just didn't charge me anything and told me they didn't know what to do. If the dealer doesn't know what to do, then who does?
2) It wasn't too long after #1 that I had a broken Mass Air Flow sensor and a busted hose. I took the Jeep to a different dealer who replaced them, but then returned the Jeep to me with the oil cap not attached. I am curious if this expense could not have been avoided if the dealer in #1 knew what they were doing?
3) The Jeep only has 46,000 miles on it (I have only had it since 36,000) and I have already replaced a belt, an alternator, a battery, a hose, and a mass air flow sensor.
4) The dealerships won't give me a loaner car. Seriously, all the parts for this thing take days to arrive, so I am stuck having to find a way around without my car.
5) When I called Jeep to complain about some problems I was having with a dealership, they said that there was nothing they could do and suggested I talk to the district rep yet they did not have the contact information for this rep and suggested I call the dealer to get it. Are you kidding me? This is a five star dealer, who gave them that award? Do you really have no control over your dealers, or do you just not care?

Who knows, this Jeep may run to 100,000 (or beyond) before I have to put any more money into it. However, what the above has shown me is that any mechanical problems that this Jeep may have are not really the problem, they are the symptom. The real root problem here is the lack of support from Jeep.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Would you mind sharing the mailing address to which the survey is supposed to be returned?

Might be nice if a few folks here sent them additional feedback.

I'd really suggest giving them the full list of substantial issues these CRD's have, including fuel filter/fuel starvation/air in fuel, weak torque converters and transmissions + the "de-tune" F37, CCV system and the longevity issues it will cause, the crappy air filter/air box design, and poor dealer support.

That said, I absolutely love mine, and would also share that with them. Short of it having problems that leave me without transportation, I would not consider getting rid of it, as there is nothing else on the market that comes close to being a replacement.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:52 pm

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

I'm going to pull a 3,000 lb trailer cross country a month from now. I am betting with my mod it will pull better and not shift out of gear as much as before. The mountain passed OK to downshift but not small hills. I think the computer knows when a engine is starving for fuel under load and downshift to make up for it. It has alot to do with throttle position and the speed you are going.

In all the by-back vehicles I've looked at in my times at Chrysler I've never seen any problems with fuel pressure, rail pressure instabilities, etc. so I doubt any affect the lift pump will make on towing and downshifts. The actual engine torque has never been an issue either and has always been what's it's calibrated to be, regardless of the presence of a lift pump. The 545 software uses a torque signal from the engine along with engine rpm, vehicle speed, etc. to determine upshift and downshift points. What you're seeing is the trans being torque limited for protection (it sends a value to the ECU) so when appropriate the trans will downshift in an attempt to restore the engine power with less torque (operate at higher RPM) since peak power is at 3800rpm and the torque is lower here than at say 2000rpm. The torque is also limited on the engine side for certain gears to not damage the converter so this torque limitation can also be reached easily while trailer towing which will cause the vehicle to slow down and subsequently downshift.

Additionally, the fluid flow through the trans cooler is different in lock-up vs. non-lock-up. As trans temps spike up while towing then the OD can be turned off for protection and the trans left in 3rd lock-up to demand higher RPMs thus higher flow thru the cooler.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:18 pm

MrMopar.
Thanks for the input

So what your saying is they have taken away the diesel's main selling point, it's low end torque, to baby the inferior transmission :cry:

This combination is not suitable for towing a trailer that's well within the set towing limits. Anyone ready for a class action :?:

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:33 pm

MrMopar,

There are two major issues with the CRD that we are all taking shots at randomly and perhaps not hitting. They are as follows:

> Air in the fuel

> Random complete loss of power

I know that you don't believe the air issue can be solved by a lift pump but it is a serious issue for some with stock setups and others with modified setups. Dealers have no solution nor do they seem to be able to get one from Chrysler. If the lift pump is not a solution what is?

On the second item what causes it? It doesn't seem to throw a code and can only be resolved by letting it sit for a while then doing a re-start. It is very dangerous and may get someone seriously injured. I have had it happen once in traffic where there was no place to park or turn off for a mile and it was no fun. Had it happened under other conditions it might have been fatal.

Thanks

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:58 pm

Threeweight wrote:

Would you mind sharing the mailing address to which the survey is supposed to be returned?

Might be nice if a few folks here sent them additional feedback.

I'd really suggest giving them the full list of substantial issues these CRD's have, including fuel filter/fuel starvation/air in fuel, weak torque converters and transmissions + the "de-tune" F37, CCV system and the longevity issues it will cause, the crappy air filter/air box design, and poor dealer support.

That said, I absolutely love mine, and would also share that with them. Short of it having problems that leave me without transportation, I would not consider getting rid of it, as there is nothing else on the market that comes close to being a replacement.

DaimlerChrysler
Research Department
P.O. Box 10072
Toledo, Ohio 43682-4121

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:36 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

BlackLibertyCRD wrote:

I'm going to pull a 3,000 lb trailer cross country a month from now. I am betting with my mod it will pull better and not shift out of gear as much as before. The mountain passed OK to downshift but not small hills. I think the computer knows when a engine is starving for fuel under load and downshift to make up for it. It has alot to do with throttle position and the speed you are going.

In all the by-back vehicles I've looked at in my times at Chrysler I've never seen any problems with fuel pressure, rail pressure instabilities, etc. so I doubt any affect the lift pump will make on towing and downshifts. The actual engine torque has never been an issue either and has always been what's it's calibrated to be, regardless of the presence of a lift pump. The 545 software uses a torque signal from the engine along with engine rpm, vehicle speed, etc. to determine upshift and downshift points. What you're seeing is the trans being torque limited for protection (it sends a value to the ECU) so when appropriate the trans will downshift in an attempt to restore the engine power with less torque (operate at higher RPM) since peak power is at 3800rpm and the torque is lower here than at say 2000rpm. The torque is also limited on the engine side for certain gears to not damage the converter so this torque limitation can also be reached easily while trailer towing which will cause the vehicle to slow down and subsequently downshift.

Additionally, the fluid flow through the trans cooler is different in lock-up vs. non-lock-up. As trans temps spike up while towing then the OD can be turned off for protection and the trans left in 3rd lock-up to demand higher RPMs thus higher flow thru the cooler.

Maybe I word it wrong. I was having problem with air in the fuel causing loss of power and or torgue. If the torque signal was low, I can see why it would downshift. The lift pump mod alone is not getting rid of the air in the fuel head. I tee a hose and check valve from the fuel head to the return line to bleed off the air from the top of the fuel head automatically while the engine and pump is running. I know I have more power for I can smoke the rear tire if I want. Thats something I wasn't ever able to do before. As soon as I get time, I going to hook up the trailer and pull it over a few bridges here. I will know the difference as it was before because it's the same trailer I pulled up from GA.

I have a survey from Jeep

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