check out this post from the fj forums

_UnLiMiTeD_ · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:46 am

i hate the looks of them and i hate the interior. Thats my personal opinion on them

Rush345 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:56 am

No My brethern I'm not dissing our beloved KJ's but KJ4ME speaks the truth. How do you think Toyota was able to get the hold they have on the American market? It wasn't sexy half clothed women at the auto shows , nor was it witty and cute commercials aired during prime time TV. As much as we love made in America and support all American business. Toyota got where the are the old fashion way they earned it. Put your predjudice aside and take an impartle look at the Toyota FJ. Pop the hood look carefully at the engine compartment, instead of some plumbers nightmare like most American cars you can follow every tube and wire in a easy to see well laid out order very neat and clean. Then start looking at the body panels you will once again see a extremely well built vehicle with an exellant fit and finish. Take it for a test drive you will be surprised by the smoothness quiet running quick handleing responsive feel. A fit and finish we are just starting to see in American cars but still years behind the Japanese. Then finally look at the Blue book or check with any car dealership. If you can get them to talk honestly they will tell you that Toyota's retain their value better then any American made vehical. I'm sorry to say this but that is the cold hard facts. Years ago Lee Iacoca went to Germany to a Mercedes plant asked a worker on the line what did he make the worker responded we make the finest precission luxury car in the world , Iacoca went on to Japan went to a worker on the line and asked what do you make to which the worker responed we make the finest best built economy car on the road today. Then finally Iacoca came back to the states at a Ford plant asked the same qestion one more time "What do You make" to which he got the responce quote "$18.39 and Hour". That unfortunatley is why American vehicles are not selling so well sad but true. I am not anti American, but if Jeep could make a ride with fit and finish, dependabilty and resale value like Toyota then you would see one heck of a lot more on the road. After all what vehicle says America more strongly then Jeep in any model, bring back the quality and craftsmanship and everyone would own a Jeep. But until then the better mouse trap will get the sale. Once again sad but true. I once again will step off my soap box before some one kicks it out from underneath me :twisted:

Sean150 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:08 am

I would consider one in the future if they increased the visibility through the windows like the original FJ

ryno · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:48 am

If I were in charge over at Jeep, or Cerberus, or wherever... (Jeep employees--if you're reading, take notes!)

The line-up would be: Wrangler, Wrangler Unlimited, Grand Cherokee, Liberty, Patriot

The Wranglers would ditch the gutless 3.8L in favor of the 4.0L from the Nitro. (We rented a JK Unlimited for a weekend of off-roading at Canyonlands. On the road, that engine is next to worthless in a 4,300-pound Jeep.) It would also be easier to remove the rear section of the hardtop. The front bumper would be a stubby bumper. The rear swing gate would get a gas strut to keep it from bashing into your legs all the time. The headrests wouldn't be hard as rock.

The Grand Cherokee would remain relatively unchanged. Remedy the rear seat discomfort by adding a few inches in front of it and reclining it 5 degrees or so.

The Liberty would get a solid front axle, true round headlights, and a rear-mounted spare tire. There wouldn't be any chrome trim on the outside, including the grille. The KK's girly electronic transfer case shifter would be changed back to the clunky yet manly mechanical shifter. Standard Goodyear Wranglers would be traded for BFGoodrich or Bridgestone ATs. There would be a Renegade model that would compete with the off-road models of FJs, Xterras, and H3s. Optional equipment would include a rear locker and a front swaybar disconnect. Basically Wranglerize the Liberty in order to bring back the Cherokee owners of old.

The Patriot could be had with a 3-inch lift and off-road tires.

All models would have a diesel option.

Well that was fun... Now let's revolt!

All in favor, please manifest.

Sean150 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:21 am

I'll begin recruiting others Comrade Ryno!

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:57 am

and by making those changes you'd secluded 80% of you buyers. You have to sell product to stay in business

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:19 pm

If you look at his photos, take note of the pic of when he slide and hit the boulder. I was up at Forest Lake yesterday and I watched as other people ahead of me slid down the same muddy slope and hit the same boulder as pictured. The trail actually turns to the right but all the mud and gravity pulls you straight down this steep incline.
I was able to avoid hitting the boulder by liberal (I feel icky using this word) use of the skinny pedal and God's good humor.
I know it has nothing to do with the FJ, but I just thought that I'd share.
I used to work for Toyota for many years and I know a lot about what makes them successful. Back in 1990 (within the time frame I worked for them), Money Magazine did a story about Toyota. One of the interesting points of the article was that Toyota had enough CASH lying around that they could buy Ford and Chrysler with all their subsidieries included and still have a billion dollars left.
They predicted back then that once Toyota offered a HD truck, they can bypass the big 3 in sales easily.
I could go into the company's history in the US, but it's beyond the scope of this post.

KJ4ME · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:52 pm

ryno, you would see a demographic change for sure, but small families looking for a simple yet capable winter/inclement weather SUV would walk away from jeep (those changes would raise some MSRP's by more than a little :lol:

) not only that, but youd have somethings manufactures hate more than slow sales and new epa standards... its called "inter competition" your wranglerized liberty would compete with your wrangler which could compete with the off road model patriot.

ryno · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:40 pm

There are so many XJ owners out there that gave up on the Jeep brand after the XJ's production got the plug pulled on it. XJ owners are some of the most loyal, passionate Jeep owners out there, and it makes sense not to ostracize them from the brand. I don't see how it would seclude 80% of Jeep buyers by getting rid of the Commander and the Compass and making the rest of the line-up truly formidable in the rough stuff. The Commander is getting nixed in a few years anyway, and the Compass is just a plain disgrace to the Jeep name.

What it comes down to is this: All Jeeps should be capable off-road; that's what attracts buyers to the Jeep brand. Even if they don't plan on taking their Jeeps off-road, they like to be seen as if they do. Wrangler lovers will still buy Wranglers. A capable Liberty would interest the competition's customers who want off-road capability without sacrificing much on the road. The Grand Cherokee and the Patriot would be the soft-roaders of the bunch. Jeep doesn't make mini-vans or mommy-mobiles, so there's no need to cater to that demographic by making everything refined on the road. Heck, the reason I got my KJ was because I liked the truckiness of it.

I'm sorry, but a Patriot would never encroach upon the Wrangler's sales. People who buy Wranglers buy them for the image that the Patriot just doesn't provide. A Wranglerized Liberty would undoubtedly attract some Wrangler owners, but inner-brand competition isn't always a bad thing. If there are two Jeep vehicles that really interest you, you're not going to say, "Ugh! I can't make up my mind!" and then go and buy an Escape or a RAV4. There should always be something else to yearn for. That's what keeps buyers coming back.

An entire line-up available with diesel engines would be enough to bring many people into the brand simply for the gas mileage. The diesel Patriot that they have in Europe gets something like 42 mpg. The 4.2L Cummins engine that was developed in conjunction with the Department of Energy gets 21 mpg city, 25 highway. Oh yeah, and that engine also has 270 horsepower and 420 lb-ft of torque. Put that in a Liberty and tell me people wouldn't buy it.

I'm sorry if you actually read all of that rant. lol

chefdab · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:57 pm

Here's my take on Ryno's idea: Keep the base and limited model Liberty IFS but design the front end components so that it could also accept a solid axle. Then offer the solid axle version as the Renegade model. You see that type of thing on pick up trucks. The base models are IFS but when you bump up to the heavy duty version, you get a solid axle. Then Jeep could keep selling to the soft-roaders who want the cushy ride AND to the wheelers who want the creature comforts available in this model.

kj in a tight spot · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:44 pm

Rush345 wrote:

That unfortunatley is why American vehicles are not selling so well sad but true.

Uhhh, American trucks sell like hotcakes, same with SUVs...sure maybe the fuel efficient cars are being dominated by the people over the Pacific, but they cant begin to scratch the surface of truck buildin and they sure as hell shouldnt either...and please dont go usin the Ridgeline or the new Tundra as an example...the new Tundra just finally got into the real 1/2 ton class after so many years...

Quote:

if Jeep could make a ride with fit and finish, dependabilty and resale value like Toyota then you would see one heck of a lot more on the road

Its called a Wrangler, preferably the ones with the straight 6 variety under the hood :wink:

I am fully expectin to get a good 250k+ on my jeep, then time to swap in a small block :twisted:

Plus Wranglers hold their value better than any other of the jeep models and most cars on the road. They have a purty big markup on em from the dealer cause they know people will pay for em no matter what, its a Wrangler. The resale value is pretty good as well, and its born and raised in Toledo, OH

Wont ever see me own anything BUT American made

Maximum Carnage · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:38 pm

I've thought about buying an FJ I really like them. Plus like it was mentioned before there are a lot more aftermarket parts, don't have to wait to have someone build them for you. Wait till the new Bronco comes out.

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:54 pm

the new Bronco's been promised for too long for me to even look forward to it. Got any info?

kj in a tight spot · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:05 pm

ThunderbirdJunkie wrote:

the new Bronco's been promised for too long for me to even look forward to it. Got any info?

The IFS is a turnoff but it dont look too bad I figure...no new info though

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:10 pm

last I heard it was supposed to be Escape-based.

I won't mind the IFS if it's got a solid 8.8 out back...it could easily be Ranger-based.

ryno · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:17 pm

Ford would never make anything that wild looking. Ford is one of the most conservative auto companies when it comes to design. The Bronco will probably look like a glorified Explorer if it ever makes it into production.

The tires on that Bronco would scream like a little girl. :-)r

KJ4ME · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:38 pm

that exact same thing was said about the fusion and the edge... that they were too "wild" ford would never design anything like that...

KJ4ME · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:41 pm

last i heard was we arent getting a bronco until we get a new ranger, sometime during or after the '09 model year.

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:48 am

Ford's been talking about building a new Bronco since they got rid of the "full sized" Bronco... Sure would be nice but I don't see it ever happening. And now with the push for smaller and more fuel effecient cars - adding vehilces with substandard MPG figures would not be a wise business move.

Ryno: The reason that you would seculde 80% of the Jeep buyer is simply due to the fact that making something rugged and less comfortable on road drives away the general public. Take strickly the Liberty for example. Say you make it ride rougher than it already does by adding a SFA. Then you add more lift to the stock ride height which increases the center of gravity making it more tippy and unstable... The end result is a SUV that rides just like a Truck and handles just like a truck and you're telling me that some soccer mom is going to want to purchase it? They'll be shopping else where for their kid transporter.

The same thing could be said about the Grand Cherokee. It might not be as capable as it used to be but at least it provides the average car buyer a sure footed vehicle that is rather capable in almost every situation. Not everyone can afford to buy a Grand Cherokee which is why the Liberty was created...

check out this post from the fj forums

Who is online