Seriously, why do all the dealer mechanics/techs suck?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:46 pm

So, its been almost 5 years since I stopped turning wrenches for a living.
I must say that my perspective has changed now that I am on the other
side of the service window.
When I was a service tech at a Mitsubishi shop we had 2-3 really good techs
and 3 real duds. I guess I fell somewhere in between as I did not have the
years of experience (or get paid) like the older guys. But the service
manager recognized my persistence to getting the job done (and lower pay
scale) and automatically sent any vehicle to me that had been in for the
same problem more than twice. He also sent me to all the Mitsu tech
schools that he could. I also worked as a heavy equipment diesel tech and
went through the Diesel Technology program at Citrus College (CA).

Obviously there is more to being a mechanic than hooking up a scan tool
and reading codes. The code might indicate a bad TPS but wont tell you
why it failed. The TPS might even be good and something else is causing
a bad reading. Do todays mechanics not know how to read a troubleshooting
manual?

Does ASE certification mean anything anymore? Is it just a patch to sew
on your shirt? I've found that ASE tests are biased toward GM products
and only really test your ability to pass a written exam. But, its the industry
standard, for better or worse.

Please, anyone who is or was a mechanic, of any field (auto, truck, etc.)
add you thoughts and feelings. I think that the main reasons CRD owners
come here and rant and argue is because they are frustrated with the fact
that the local chrysler reps (dealers and service dept) have no answers to
their problems and a unwilling to make an effort to help.

RTStabler51 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:54 pm

So you mean the guys were wrong when they told me they had to replace a sparkplug?

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:03 pm

It is because A.) the crossover from gasoline technology to Diesel technology, and it's practical implementation in your vehicle, is not simple, and B.) that practical implementation in your vehicle is a very small percentage of the vehicles the DCX techs work on, in any given year - thus, that one-hour training video cannot even begin to scratch the veneer of that knowledge which most guys bring from childhood - it's difficult enuff to even master the terminology: gas pedal, gas tank, gas mileage, gas station, gas pump

"Help!! - my (always the other person, right? Always someone else :roll:

) filled my gas tank with gas(oline)!"

The big boys put their techs thru several years of theory and training, including many hours of hands-on training with real Diesel engines on test stands, B4 they're turned loose on an unsuspecting public - even then, it takes long-term OJT supervision from experienced older hands in the service bay to complete the finished product.

Where will you see that in the dog-eat-dog world of the average passenger-vehicle service bay, long acclimated to working on the ever-popular gasser? (patooie!) Even moreso, with the way low volume of Diesel vehicles that they will ever see.

DCX coulda had better luck if they had marketed the CRD thru the Dodge dealerships, each with several highly trained Diesel techs, trained and capable of working on the new CRD technology, or set up a contractual program to 'borrow' a Dodge tech for Jeep CRD service.

Or instructed the Jeep 'ships to refer all CRD maintenance to the Dodge 'ships.

Now wouldn't that sit well with the unsuspecting public: "I done went and bought this chere Jeep from you guys - now yer tellin' me I gotta take it to the Dodge dealer clear 'crost town to git it fixed?!? What kinda circus you people runnin' here?!?!"

A one-hour Diesel training video? :roll:

Go fish!

valoflyby · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:11 pm

Yeah... and you don't think I'm scared-to-death to take my CRD back to the Jeep/Subaru/Kia dealership? Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the recalls are preceded by "F"? (F23, F37, etc). Yeah... I'm going in to get "F'd".

RTStabler51 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:25 pm

valoflyby wrote:

Yeah... and you don't think I'm scared-to-death to take my CRD back to the Jeep/Subaru/Kia dealership? Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the recalls are preceded by "F"? (F23, F37, etc). Yeah... I'm going in to get "F'd".

Must have gotten yours out at Leesburg as well? I tried Farrish a couple of times and quickly grew tired of walking funny when I left. Rosenthal Jeep in Arlington is the place to go.

dieseltoyz · **Joined:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:28 pm **Posts:** 64

When I worked for Toyota, there were only 2 techs (other than myself) that had their ASE certs. The rest of the guys on the line (15+)were completely worthless. Most should've been working at the oil change station down the street as their understanding of all things mechanical was bad at best. They were paid accordingly but I always cringed at the thought of the poor people who brought their vehicles in to be worked on by these idiots. We had all sorts of issues with them dropping vehicle's off of lifts, forgetting to tighten "key" bolts in the engine when reassembling, or leaving them out altogether. If I had a nickel for every "extra bolt" they had on their bench after completing a job... I attempted to be somewhat of a quality control stickler when reviewing their work but it ultimately was fruitless. ASE certs mean that you know a little about alot. Master certs mean you know a little more than that. Diagnostician certs mean you can probably figure out what's causing the problem without a scanner. ASE certs in no way mean as much as they did even 15 years ago. There are all sorts of internet courses and night classes where anyone can basically become an ASE tech in short order if you memorize the training material. Most good techs go off and open their own shops as dealerships stink to work at. They pay you marginally but only send you work they know no one else can fix it (ie. they'd rather pay a shop tech half the price to throw parts at it in the event they actually fix it). Most line techs can quickly make more than the ASE guys if they hustle as the service managers hate sending work to the higher paid ASE or master techs. If the service managers see that the line techs are hustling they offer to send them to school to become a master tech or pay them salary. I personally quit working for dealerships because there is no integrity anymore with any of them. They're ALL about making as much as possible with or without ethics. I would get in trouble literally if i found nothing wrong with a transmission other than a low fluid level. Or recommending a simple cleaning of the valve body instead of the rebuilt trans they sold the guy on. Sometimes, I would give the service manager my recommendation and go on to the next vehicle. Later, I'd see the same ticket on my bench that followed none of my previous recomendations. Meaning, I'd recommend a balance and rotation and the ticket would say "ball joints" 4 wheel alignment, and cutting the rotors. I had my girlfriend take her 2007 yaris into the dealership for her free rotation that is included on her vehicle for 3 years. I secretly marked the insides of the tires with their location to see if they actually did it. Of course, when my girlfriend got home, I checked it and they had not been done. When asking her about it, she said it took an extra 45 minutes because they had to rotate the tires and they had even tried to charge her for it as they said they put it on a balancer to check each tire's balancing before they put it back on.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:03 pm

Diesel technology has changed so much in the past five years that if I wouldn't have witnessed it, I wouldn't believe the changes. Add to that the crappy pay,hours(mostly nights) and negative image that people have of diesel techs and you suddenly have nobody that wants to to it for a living. Just look at all the bad things people say about techs on this board alone. I personally feel bad for the techs trying to work on these with liitle or no experience on diesels. Then add flat rate on top of it all(warranty flat rate at that!) It doesn't suprise me that some dealers flat out refuse to work on these.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:54 pm

Any kind of troubleshooting for flat rate has to suck. I have a good friend and some family that have worked as dealership mechanics in their younger days. They really have nothing good to say about it. Do most dealerships allow tipping these guys? If it isn't allowed, does it go on anyway? I've been lucky, I'm not on a first name basis with my dealer's service department, and this is also the only vehicle I've ever owned with a warranty.

CHessMaster · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:35 am

I was a mechanic for 24 years, 10 of those at a dealership, now I do something else (much more fun).

I'm on my 2nd CRD. The first was "replaced" because SEVERAL problems could not get fixed. The mechanic working on it is a Cummins/Sprinter tech. Between him and I (previous master electronic diesel tech) and Chrysler tech support, we couldn't figure out the problem(s).

Biggest reason for this is that no one (field service personnel) knows how the systems actually work and/or interact in the CRD. They at one time told me that Bosch engineers even came to this area trying to duplicate and diagnose one of the problems. They never really figured it out, but the last flash update was suppose to be from their experience.

I'm throughly convinced, now, that it was the air leak in the fuel filter system (like most of us have to some degree) and the EGR interacting at high altitude. The replacement CRD does the same thing as the old one sometimes, but at least I know what it is now.......

Anyway, :oops:

he performed hours and hours of fruitless diagnosis, parts replacement and phone time working on the original CRD before Chrysler replaced it. I gave him my old diesel Cherokee to hopefully make up for the time he spent and never got paid.

One of the benefits of this whole story, is that while working on a different problem on my 2nd CRD, he learned so much about the systems trying to diagnose the 1st CRD, that it lead us the original ORM. :shock:

Bottom line: Sometimes there are good people out there, but they have to do their own diagnostic "reverse engineering" because of the lack of information from the manufacturer.

But, having said all that..... Many if not most of the people in the industry now are only out for number 1, and number 1 doesn't pay or get paid on flat rate unless you're replacing parts (ie, being "productive").........

I think it's better I stop now, because this board doesn't have enough memory to hold all the letters I would type if I went on with my opinions and experiences in the field of automotive repair. :roll:

crackercrd · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:43 pm

I am an A&P mechanic for a major US airline, I know its apples to oranges, but the basic trouble-shooting skills of the average dealer tech is enough to make me sick. When I've attempted to explain what is happening and what I think is causing it, they (the tech) look at me like I've got lobsters crawling out of my ears and totally blow me off. It is dog eat dog and the techs are trying to pump as many cars through as the can. They don't care, they don't have time to give a rats azz what you think. I know how that goes too, now and then I get a flight crew that tries to tell me how to fix the jet :roll:

, but most tell me if there is something not working right, and let me fix it. I do care, I have time to trouble shoot, & I do not get paid by the job, but by the hour. That little tid-bit could improve dealer mechanics but I'm betting that the dealer is not going to start that any time soon

sorry for rambling, I'm very tired & sleepy (stupid midnight shift :cry:

)

Uffe · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:16 am

In a strange way I am sorry for you guys across the pond. My 03 CRD hasn't got the leaky fuel filter which sucks air and I have a proper EGR valve operating on vacuum instead of current.

I am told this is because you guys have stricter emission control than we do. And just today I read that many european cities have problems controlling their values of NOx to an extent where it can actually be damaging to your health to breathe the air. We will probably sooner or later have to regulate the emissions of diesel engines too. Fortunatly bluetech/bluemotion technology will bring diesel engines back on emission-track.

Back on topic.

We get techs here that have not worked on anything else than diesel engines because in europe these engines are the backbone of everything. Even small cars have high tech diesel engines and there is nearly no car model from any brand that does not supply a diesel option. Even the resale value of a diesel car is much higher than the same car with a petrol engine. We're addicted here

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:19 am

I just dont buy the excuse that diesel engines are soo different from gassers.
Yeah, I know that I've been trained on diesels where most auto techs have
not. But still, it's not anything like that twin-crankshaft FM monster from
the 50's. Or even a two-stroke Detroit. (I'd like to see the techs eyes the
first time he pulls a piston and sees those big holes in the sleeve or the
fear the first time he accidently makes it run backwards :lol:

)

It's got intake, compression, power, and exhaust strokes.
Intake and exhaust valves actuated by overhead camshafts driven by a belt.
Electronic fuel injection with a common fuel rail supplying all the injectors.
MAF, MAP, and TPS sensors. Even an EGR valve, go figure! :shock:

The only thing missing is a place to hook up the timing light. :lol:

Hell, you dont even need a timing light on most gassers these days!
The only problem is that most auto techs think that its the glow plug that
fires the air/fuel mix.

Maybe I'm a little out of touch but I just don't get it!

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:01 pm

Somma yer basic gasser (patooie!) wisdom from Diesel noobies, and some grizzled old hands, encountered across the forums:

Guys, ya cain't wash a Diesel - they won't run right

You guys are jist wastin' yer money on that expensive oil - it's all gonna burn up in the turbo, anyway - jist use 10W-30 Cheapoil - it's only buck a quart at Snakeoil emporium

If ya wantcher Diesel to run better, jist add several gallons of unleaded premium because Diesel fuel is low octane, and the gas keeps the injectors clean. And it keeps all that black stuff outta yer exhaust pipes

Guys, you'll get lots more power if ya rip out that factory airfilter box and hoses - jist put a screen over the turbo to keep the squirrels out - Diesels don't have a carburetor to get dirty, so they don't need all that junk that blocks the air - and, you can hear the turbo whistle reel good

Diesels don't need a (your choice) thermostat\fan\etc - that's why the big trucks have those loovers on the front.

Don't kill yer engine everytime you stop - Diesels are made to idle all the time - all that stoppin' and startin' ain't good for the engine.

Guys, acetone will raise yer gas mileage by 20%, guaranteed - I use it in my lawmowers and weedeaters, and the kid's 4-wheelers, and it reely improves the power of my wife's '83 Dodge Omni - it's like a whole new car - jist add a half-ounce per gallon - you'll see

He's wrong - a half ounce ain't gonna help, guys - takes exactly 5oz per gallon - any more than than and the cost is too much

Help - my engine won't crank - it's like it's locked up - it was ok before I installed my homemade water-mister in the intake manifold - it worked ok on my Mustang

Diesels don't need oil changes very often - jist run it till it gets thick, then put it in yer gas tank - Diesels are made to burn oil

Help, guys - how can I make my truck smoke, like the Dodges - Diesels are made to smoke

Help - my truck gets terrible gas mileage - I'm runnin' a straight pipe so it smokes reel good - hey, thanks for all the smoke improvement info, guys, it reely pours now - but I was gettin good gas mileage before I changed the exhaust pipes

Small Diesels don't need two batterys - they jist started doin' that when they started puttin' them stoopid 'no starting fluid' signs on them

- OR -

Fergit that stoopid warning sign on the engine - all Diesels start better with starting fluid - that's why they made the starter so small

You don't need a WIF lite - all them truckers up at the Flyin' A say they don't have one on none of their trucks

I always get gas down at the stop-and-rob - there's never anybody at the Diesel pump

Guys, a guy tole me to put a Holley blue pump on my truck to get more power, but then it started missing at steady sppeds, so now the guy down the street tole me mine's a high pressure system, and to put a 'nuther Holley blue on it - now it runs real bad - he thinks the injection pump is bad - do I need a new injection pump? BTW - he's been working on cars a real long time, so he knows all about these things.

You don't need a fuel filter - it just stops up real fast, blocks the gas, and makes the engine run ruff

Fuel is too high - I always run waste motor oil - everybody has to change oil so it don't hurt their bearings and stuff, so I get lots of free fuel

The problem is your wastegate - wastegates never work right - and they just block off the exhaust - pull it off and put a blow-off valve on it - everyone knows they're much better - they run blow-off valves on all the Honda sights

Ya don't need to change yer glowplugs - they never wear out, like spark plugs do

Guys, my factory tach only goes to 4000rpm - I need to put a 8000rpm tach so I can see how high it revs - what brand are y'all using

- OR -

Guys, I'm installing a tach, but I can't find the distributor.................

There's more - lots more - crossing over ain't as easy as seems it orta be, eh................

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:19 pm

gmctd, you make me want to spray coffee on my monitor sometimes! The really sad part is how many of those I've seen in this very forum (one or two perpetuated by me when I was VERY green... :oops:

). Although some are arguably of neutral benefit and simply a user choice, some are simply stupid and dangerous.... Oh, well, it made me laugh, so it can't be that bad

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:34 pm

It is to laff - and marvel at the thought process - however, even the seemingly harmless personal choice items are categorically dangerous, easily debunked with Science 101 common sense.

Fer instance, waste motor oil - think it's harmless? Think burning it in the engine is advantageous?

If waste engine oil is too contaminated for the engine rod and main and camshaft sleeve bearings, at ~0.006" clearances, how then is it not too contaminated for the injection pump, where roller and needle bearing and pumping plunger - and injector - clearances are in the sub-micron dimensions?

Doesn't make cents, does it?

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:44 pm

The difference between incentive and motivation when it comes to being a mechanic -

Getting paid $50/hour to work on someone's vehicle, that's incentive.

Being in the middle of the ocean and facing the prospect of not being able to take a shower for the next month if you can't get the evaporator fixed - that's MOTIVATION!!! :lol:

cumminspilot · **Posted:** Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:59 am

If you wish to drive an oddball with no factory support more effort is required from you the owner. Yes I know that you paid a lot of money for a product that worked and it should be made right. You will not often find a good mechanic at a dealership and the chance that you will find a good service writer is even less.
If you do find a mechanic take him beer or whiskey or find some way to show your appreciation, If a good service writer is included take him the same. Look for small mom and pop shops for non warrantee work and keep looking till you find a good one. If I can have luck with the above anyone can.

be patient with your mechanic
dont yell at your mechanic

there are good ones out there
are you good enough to find one

Seriously, why do all the dealer mechanics/techs suck?

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