Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:49 pm

I’ve been told by two diesel mechanics who say that those who run Bio, especially those who run B100, have a large problem with leaking seals. Both mechanics agree that Bio is a good cleaner and lubes really good, thus reducing the wear on parts and the need to replace pumps. However, they say these diesels are in the shop more often due to leaking seals. One mechanic (who’s shop is in Seattle where Bio is common) said that since the introduction of biodiesel, he has personally seen a major increase in business, and it‘s all due to leaking seals. Does the ULSD have something to do with this? So what do you guys think? Is this why Cummins only recommends B5 verses B20?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:48 pm

Propaganda is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

It doesn't need to be vetted or even remotely accurate in the here-and-now, only partly-accurate a long time ago so it *sounds about right* now.

To answer your question: No, biodiesel is NOT responsible for your leaking seals, unless you happen to be driving a 1970s era oil burner that has never tasted anything other than high-sulfur fuel AND has never had the injection pump serviced in the last 10 years or so.

It that case, YES, your 1978 Mercedes 300D's leaking pump *could* be caused by biodiesel degrading the already porous, cracked and dried NATURAL RUBBER seals. But ULSD causes the SAME PROBLEMS on the SAME _NATURAL RUBBER_ fuel systems.

Cars have not had any (or extremely little) natural rubber in any contact with the fuel systems since the mid 90s, b/c they discovered that the rubber would swell and degrade. A friend-of-a-friend (so this is probably worth what you paid to hear it) with an old 70's Volvo diesel got about 200 YARDS outside of the station after filling up with his first tank of ULSD. No biodiesel. But his pump fairly gushed from the leaking seals, and looked like a dam had burst.

What problems has biodiesel caused *me* personally? Hmm... How about a $30 fuel temp sensor that may or may not have already been on its way out... And NO OTHER PROBLEMS for 30k miles, and then 60k miles AFTER it tasted its last drop of my homebrew bio.

My CRD has already drunk 3 full tanks of B100, the most recent one being made from chicken fat. The engine is NOTABLY quieter when on that instead of the ULSD, but I did notice a mileage penalty when towing.

But for the 30 cents per gallon SAVINGS I was getting over the pump price... Hell yea I will continue to feed my Jeep chickens and canola and palm nuts.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:05 am

I used to keep injection pump seals in stock for Bosch VE pumps when I ran the Shop years ago. I saw a little increase in seal replacement when the regular diesel was replaced with Low Sulfur Diesel. Our Liberty CDRs were designed for ULSD.
From what I can extract out of the facts on Biodiesel is the concerns over quality control in the manufacturing process. Methanol and Sodium Hydroxide that is used to make Methoxide for the Esterification process can be a problem if it is not removed in the decanting operation. Personally I have not had any running problems with good quality Biodiesel.

Steve

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

And now for the post that everyone knew was inevitable on this topic and that will be bashed by the BD supporters:

Yes, of course it causes more problems. It is a solvant and as such it will break down everything it comes into contact with. As I have stated before, I know people who have done haul testing on this engine for military applications and running on B100(high quality, made for military use, not in someone's kitchen) the lifetime of the engine was roughly half. Mechanics I know here in the Seattle area have also stated that even with modern diesels(like Cummins) they have had noticably more service from the ones on BD vs not BD. One who does service for the City of Seattle(which uses BD in many of its service vehicles) has said that he's seen at least 25% more work done on those vehicles since they started switching, per mile driven, and his service logs make the change apparant.

No, this is not an anti-BD post. I've pointed out in the past that I support biofuels when they make sense(ie: non-crop based solutions, such as Algae, which are great). But we need to realize that everything has its price, and having engine wear approximating what gassers get is one price we will pay.

Anyways, bash away, I know some of you will.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:20 am

Reflex wrote:

As I have stated before, I know people who have done haul testing on this engine for military applications and running on B100(high quality, made for military use, not in someone's kitchen) the lifetime of the engine was roughly half.

Half of what? And what were the failure modes? I'm just curious.

UFO · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:45 am

Reflex, unless you can back that up with some documentation, I will chalk that one down to MYTH. Description of failure mode would be a plus. The claim is ridiculous on its face.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

I've already pointed out in the past that I do not have access to the documents, they were not public studies. One was conducted by the military, which uses a version of our engine for some purposes, and due to legislation forcing the armed forces to utilize biofuels wherever possible, long haul testing has been performed with it. A friend of mine is an contract engineer and worked on this, obviously he cannot hand me a copy of his report, but they tested several of our engines, some running B100, some running regular diesel, and the failure rate was roughly double with engine lifespan being half. the tests were done to a million miles on all engines. At the time the important part to me was that the engine typically lasted a million miles, which was my goal, and I did not get all the details on what exactly failed in the others.

The other information I am privvy to is from Chrysler, who has done similiar studies and had similiar results. But they will never be published, it would not behoove them to piss off the environmental crowd by pointing out the obvious issues.

Obviously you only have my word for this, and I expect you to ignore it, deride me for stating it, etc, your minds were made up. But when the topic comes up I will repeat what I know, especially since everyone here is so fast at dismissing the references the original poster had, namely mechanics on the ground who are noticing a lot more problems with BD vehicles(gee, are they all in a vast oil conspiracy or something?). Mechanics I know have said similiar things, including ones who are in a position of fleet management.

Once again though, the loss of reliability only brings a diesel down to the level of a gas engine, which is plenty reliable for most consumers. So for many, the correct answer is "Yes, you will have more problems, but it will not be any more than an equivilent gas engine vehicle" which is a more than adequate reliability level for most people. Very few people try to get a engine to go a million miles or more, as diesels often can.

Uffe · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:57 am

Reflex wrote:

Once again though, the loss of reliability only brings a diesel down to the level of a gas engine, which is plenty reliable for most consumers. So for many, the correct answer is "Yes, you will have more problems, but it will not be any more than an equivilent gas engine vehicle" which is a more than adequate reliability level for most people. Very few people try to get a engine to go a million miles or more, as diesels often can.

Some of the best diesel engines for SUVs haven't been able to go much past 300,000miles. Why are you mentioning something which is a fairy-tale for consumer diesel engines? The million miles is only just half-way possible in huge diesels which power busses or real trucks.

JIMMY JEEP · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:44 am

I wouldnt touch bio diesel i've seen far too many cars and vans destroyed by it and requiring new fuel pumps ,and they dont come cheap,fuel and fat forcing it's way past seals around the filter head is another problem .And your car smells like a mobile fry up.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Uffe wrote:

Reflex wrote:

Once again though, the loss of reliability only brings a diesel down to the level of a gas engine, which is plenty reliable for most consumers. So for many, the correct answer is "Yes, you will have more problems, but it will not be any more than an equivilent gas engine vehicle" which is a more than adequate reliability level for most people. Very few people try to get a engine to go a million miles or more, as diesels often can.

Some of the best diesel engines for SUVs haven't been able to go much past 300,000miles. Why are you mentioning something which is a fairy-tale for consumer diesel engines? The million miles is only just half-way possible in huge diesels which power busses or real trucks.

Thats funny, you see million mile Mercedes around here routinely. I've always been told that the thing about diesels is that the car tends to rot before the engine does if its properly maintained.

Uffe · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:30 am

Yeah million miles Mercedes. How many engine replacements do you think they have done to keep the thing alive?

Mercedes is notoriously known for having dirt cheap parts, and with all the taxi drivers using them 2nd hand engines would be "cheap" compared to the car.

A work colleague of mine has changed his motor once on the Mercedes but the car has done 700,000kms. Maybe the engines in the mercedes can do 500,000km ~ 310,000 miles each. Still a very long shot from a million miles mate.

chrispitude · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:33 am

I suspect Reflex is right about his sources. There is no reason to think he is making this stuff up. A controlled study with high-grade fuel certainly counts for something.

- Chris

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:49 am

JIMMY JEEP wrote:

I wouldnt touch bio diesel i've seen far too many cars and vans destroyed by it and requiring new fuel pumps ,and they dont come cheap,fuel and fat forcing it's way past seals around the filter head is another problem .And your car smells like a mobile fry up.

That sounds more like SVO or WVO. Straight Vegetable Oil or Waste Vegetable Oil. Those can be processed into biodiesel, but are not biodiesel themselves.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:45 pm

I think these are some great discussions. I’m not sure if hard data has been taken to help determine the cause for the leaking seals on numerous vehicles, especially those who have ran bio-diesel. Perhaps B5 was recommended by my manufacturer because the truck can safely run the fuel without damaging the seals. As more testing has been done, now Cummins has approved B20 for 2002 - 2007 Dodge Ram trucks according to the article below. A more concentrated form such as B100 may increase the risk of premature seals damage. The report below was taken from the Cummins website:

Cummins Announces Approval of B20 Biodiesel Blends

For Immediate Release
March 21, 2007

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (March 20, 2007) - Cummins Inc. (NYSE: CMI) today announced the approval of biodiesel B20 blends for use in its 2002 and later emissions-compliant ISX, ISM, ISL, ISC and ISB engines. This includes the recently released 2007 products.

Cummins is able to upgrade its previous position on the use of biodiesel fuel, which limited the use to B5 blends only, up to B20 for three key reasons. First, the American Society of Testing Materials specification ASTM D6751 now includes an important stability specification for B100 biodiesel. Second, the availability of quality fuels from BQ-9000 Certified Marketers and Accredited Producers is growing rapidly; and third, Cummins has completed the necessary testing and evaluations to ensure that customers can reliably operate their equipment with confidence using B20 fuel.

'We have completed exhaustive analysis and test evaluations which enable Cummins to provide the necessary guidance and information to our customers for the proper and successful use of this fuel in our engine,' said Edward Lyford-Pike, Chief Engineer - Advanced Alternative Fuel Programs. 'This will enable our customers to have a choice that includes renewable fuel.'

The popularity and use of biodiesel fuel continues to climb. Recent studies predict that, by 2008, 1.2 billion gallons of B100 biodiesel will be produced in the United States. Cummins will continue its efforts to ensure that future products will be compatible with biodiesel fuels, and will continue to participate in industry efforts aimed at the development of consistent quality throughout the biodiesel industry.

Further information about the use of biodiesel for both on-highway and off-highway Cummins products can be found on the Web at everytime.cummins.com.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:30 pm

As far as Cummins giving the green light to B20 - the article highlights the main reason why they've been reluctant to move past B5 up to now - FUEL QUALITY.

And for that matter, if you dig up the info-only TSB relating to B20 use (at least for Dodge pickups), it was only for fleet use, and provided that you installed an extra water separation filter ahead of the factory filter. They even listed the recommended specs as far as micron ratings for the filters. Again, FUEL QUALITY.

As far as the military test that Reflex mentions - usually when the military tests equipment for reliability, it's going to be under "worst case" battlefield conditions - you want to know just how far you can push your luck in an extremis situation before the equipment craps out on you - extreme heat, extreme cold, dust, dirt, water immersion, lack of maintenance, questionable fuel supply, etc.. Without knowing the basic premise of the test (ie, what they were testing for), the test conditions, type of equipment tested, etc - in other words, without having a copy of the test results in front of us, it's well nigh impossible to say what relevance it might have as far as our use of known good quality biodiesel blends in our CRD's.

For all we know, they may have purposely used non-MILSPEC poor quality/contaminated fuel for at least part of the test, to establish a benchmark for how well the equipment would hold up in a remote location when the only fuel available was what you could grab locally and with only basic field maintenance.

As far as assuming the fuel was of high quality simply because it was supplied to the military under a government contract - after 20 years in the Navy and dealing with the military supply system and government contractors, that's one heck of a big assumption in my book.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:33 pm

Well - I'd like to see Reflex's data - now I don't argue that a Chrysler study would probably remain confidential - however a Military study wouldn't.
DOD publishes lot's of studies and all the military is required to evaluate alternative fuels and those studies are online - Google 'DOD and Biodiesel'
the studies I saw don't say anything about high quality biodiesel - they talk about being unable to analyze biodiesel content - and 100% 'biodiesel that was not esterified - i.e. poor quality control.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:55 pm

A good sized fuel water separator would be cheap insurance to make sure that any remaining Methoxide not removed in the decanting operation settles to the bottom of the bowl. I noticed the Racor filters have a glass bowl and this may be more than adequate.
Do any or all of the Racor converts have the filter with the glass bowl?
This would be good to know.

Steve

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:07 pm

Reflex.

For once I have to agree with you on B100 :shock:

But I don't know about cutting the engine's life in half :wink:

My son-in-law till a few months ago worked as a heavy mechanic for the local municipal transite authority. The mayor and director if the transit authority desided to go GREEN and started using B100. I'm not sure but I think they were Detroit diesels and they bought a extended warranty on the engines

When injectors and other fuel system componets started failing and after reading the fine print it voided the extra warranty

So now it's costing lots of GREEN but they are still using it :roll:

Our tax dollars at work :oops:

Joe

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:09 pm

Uffe wrote:

Yeah million miles Mercedes. How many engine replacements do you think they have done to keep the thing alive?

Mercedes is notoriously known for having dirt cheap parts, and with all the taxi drivers using them 2nd hand engines would be "cheap" compared to the car.

A work colleague of mine has changed his motor once on the Mercedes but the car has done 700,000kms. Maybe the engines in the mercedes can do 500,000km ~ 310,000 miles each. Still a very long shot from a million miles mate.

Actually, if you really take care of an engine, gas or diesel, it can go far beyond what you can imagine. I’ve seen gasoline engines go well-over 300,000 miles without a rebuild or overhaul. And I’ve seen diesels hit the 1 million mile mark. A Saab from the Northern Midwest (United States) just went over a million miles, and Saab gave him a brand new car. The million mile car is now in a museum. There are plenty of old Mercedes 300D's in the Million Mile Club verified with the original engine and without an overhaul. I’ve heard of several Dodge Cummins owners going over 1 million miles. I’ve known one guy personally in Deming, NM who had a 1998 Dodge Ram 12V inline 6 Cummins who rolled over 1 million miles. I thought the truck was going to fall apart, but the motor kept going. Diesels are still new to North America and have not has the opportunity to be on the road long enough to reach 1 million miles. People who buy VW diesels aren’t driving them 30,000 miles a year. Give the VW Jetta another 10 years and you might start seeing them show up with 1 million miles. With synthetic oils, by-pass filters, better fuel supplements, various aftermarket components, better educated people, and with the new popularity of a diesel driven world, I suspect that diesel engines will continue to rise to the million mile mark. Diesel engines last longer because Diesel fuel is a lubricant and assists the oil circulating through the sump, block, and heads. Gasoline, however, breaks down oil. Any piston seal blow-by or valve seal leakage will cause the oil to break down and leave critical metal components to rub against each other. This is why I like Diesels, they are more efficient. This is also why biodiesel is so important. The biodiesel is the best known lubricant and cleaner on the market, and has been for over 100 years.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:25 pm

Uffe wrote:

Yeah million miles Mercedes. How many engine replacements do you think they have done to keep the thing alive?

Mercedes is notoriously known for having dirt cheap parts, and with all the taxi drivers using them 2nd hand engines would be "cheap" compared to the car.

A work colleague of mine has changed his motor once on the Mercedes but the car has done 700,000kms. Maybe the engines in the mercedes can do 500,000km ~ 310,000 miles each. Still a very long shot from a million miles mate.

There are many million mile mercedes out there with the original engines. Hell there are plenty of XJs out there with 300,000 miles on the original gasoline engine.

Really? Mercedes are notoriously known for having VERY expensive parts here(to which I can attest). The only upside to new Mercedes parts, is that you can still order 30-40 year old parts, if you are willing to wait for them to be shipped from dusseldorf or wherever they ship from.

Biodiesel - MYTH or FACT?

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