Trying to learn how Amsoil works

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Reflex wrote:

Excuse my terminology here as I'm sure its all wrong, but isn't the point of oil to suspend harmful elements and keep them from impacting moving parts? So it stands to reason that if you have more oil in a vehicle that you will have longer intervals between oil changes, after all you have the capacity to suspend far more in that oil. I don't think comparing vehicles with 12+ quart capacities to our CRD's is very appropriate, and I maintain that if you run Amsoil in our CRD's for 25k between oil changes you WILL kill the vehicle. Its not magic, its just oil.

False, you could easily run a 25,000 mile interval in your CRD by using the Amsoil Series 3000 HDD 5W30 engine oil. It’s not called magical, it’s called technology. With a by-pass, you might be able to take your CRD to over 50,000 miles without any problems and an oil analysis to prove it.

http://www.amsoil.com/testimonials/409000.aspx

Sorry, I don't believe that. And I would need real evidence, not a Amsoil anecdote. And its not 'technology' its 'chemistry', there is nothing mysterious about the molecules that make up oil, regardless of whether or not its 'synthetic' or not.

crd liberty · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:35 pm

I started this post and now I am sorry I did it.

I just went looking for gear oil locally and was having some trouble finding
what I wanted.
So I have ordered some and will try it. If I don't like it, I can divorce it. No Biggie.

I do apologize for ever starting all this.
Steve

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:35 pm

crd liberty wrote:

I started this post and now I am sorry I did it.

I just went looking for gear oil locally and was having some trouble finding
what I wanted.
So I have ordered some and will try it. If I don't like it, I can divorce it. No Biggie.

I do apologize for ever starting all this.
Steve

No worries. I am not the biggest fan of the way Amsoil does business but I do stand behind the product and do believe they have some of the best products on the market hands down. If anyone can change my mind on that, I will change products.

chrispitude · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:02 pm

Out of curiosity, how easy/hard would it be to run a bypass system in the CRD? I never really gave this much thought, but with the price of oil continuing to go up, it might make both economic and environmental sense...

- Chris

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Reflex wrote:

In other words, in your mind its a conspiracy theory. Bull!S&!. There is no oil that can magically go 25,000 miles, at least not at the consumer level. Perhaps 6000, although for the price your paying there would be no reason to avoid selling it if your a dealer, the markup more than makes up for the lesser oil changes.

No dog in this fight, but Volkswagen spec 505.1 and 507 spec synthetic oils are designed to go 10k+ on oil change intervals in VW TDI engines. Volkswagen factory specs.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:20 pm

Threeweight wrote:

Reflex wrote:

In other words, in your mind its a conspiracy theory. Bull!S&!. There is no oil that can magically go 25,000 miles, at least not at the consumer level. Perhaps 6000, although for the price your paying there would be no reason to avoid selling it if your a dealer, the markup more than makes up for the lesser oil changes.

No dog in this fight, but Volkswagen spec 505.1 and 507 spec synthetic oils are designed to go 10k+ on oil change intervals in VW TDI engines. Volkswagen factory specs.

Not sure now, but last I checked, Amsoil and maybe two other companies were making that spec oil for VW.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:06 pm

Reflex wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Reflex wrote:

Excuse my terminology here as I'm sure its all wrong, but isn't the point of oil to suspend harmful elements and keep them from impacting moving parts? So it stands to reason that if you have more oil in a vehicle that you will have longer intervals between oil changes, after all you have the capacity to suspend far more in that oil. I don't think comparing vehicles with 12+ quart capacities to our CRD's is very appropriate, and I maintain that if you run Amsoil in our CRD's for 25k between oil changes you WILL kill the vehicle. Its not magic, its just oil.

False, you could easily run a 25,000 mile interval in your CRD by using the Amsoil Series 3000 HDD 5W30 engine oil. It’s not called magical, it’s called technology. With a by-pass, you might be able to take your CRD to over 50,000 miles without any problems and an oil analysis to prove it.

http://www.amsoil.com/testimonials/409000.aspx

Sorry, I don't believe that. And I would need real evidence, not a Amsoil anecdote. And its not 'technology' its 'chemistry', there is nothing mysterious about the molecules that make up oil, regardless of whether or not its 'synthetic' or not.

Sorry you don't believe it. Some people have a hard time believing new advances. Technology does advance chemistry. Molecules are important and play a significant role, but the additives make the big difference.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:07 pm

JJsKJ wrote:

Threeweight wrote:

Reflex wrote:

In other words, in your mind its a conspiracy theory. Bull!S&!. There is no oil that can magically go 25,000 miles, at least not at the consumer level. Perhaps 6000, although for the price your paying there would be no reason to avoid selling it if your a dealer, the markup more than makes up for the lesser oil changes.

No dog in this fight, but Volkswagen spec 505.1 and 507 spec synthetic oils are designed to go 10k+ on oil change intervals in VW TDI engines. Volkswagen factory specs.

Not sure now, but last I checked, Amsoil and maybe two other companies were making that spec oil for VW.

My past two TDI's ran over 100k miles with no problems on Rotella 5-40 and 10k changes. I know the later Pump Dush required a special though :wink:

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:18 pm

crd liberty wrote:

I started this post and now I am sorry I did it.

I just went looking for gear oil locally and was having some trouble finding
what I wanted.
So I have ordered some and will try it. If I don't like it, I can divorce it. No Biggie.

I do apologize for ever starting all this.
Steve

Don’t be sorry, this is a great thread start. This allows for good debate and educates people. Reflex is a good guy, and ultimately he likes to play devils advocate and challenge people to think. Nobody is pushing Amsoil. Instead, I'm pushing information and facts your way.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

So, I have three questions regarding Amsoil

1. Nobody has answered my original question: Why don't they submit the oil for API testing which is the "standard" for oil capabilities.

2. What does that 4 ball test really mean. Is the approx .3mm difference in scaring of any signifigance. I don't know what the ASTM protocol is for that test, but does it have any application to long term engine part wear

3. Are there other test which show Amsoil "worse" than other syn oils

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

JJsKJ wrote:

Not sure now, but last I checked, Amsoil and maybe two other companies were making that spec oil for VW.

Incorrect. Dozens of manufacturers make oils to meet those specs, from From European brands like ELF, Lubro Moly, Motul to US brands like Valvoline. They can be a little hard to find at your corner auto parts shack, but plenty of companies make them. Castrol actually makes the OEM oil for VW diesels.

I'm currently running ELF 5w30 in my wife's Jetta TDI. NAPA just started carrying Lubro Moly, so I may swap to it next oil change.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

vtdog wrote:

2. What does that 4 ball test really mean. Is the approx .3mm difference in scaring of any signifigance. I don't know what the ASTM protocol is for that test, but does it have any application to long term engine part wear

More importantly to me: Have they published thier complete methodology and has anyone followed up in an attempt to replicate their results?

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

The people that don't like Amsoil are ones that don't like how its marketed. Can't say I'm crazy about it but the product works as claimed so in the end why should it matter how its marketed? Just because something is sold in a big box store does not make it good. Look at Wal Mart they sell a lot of junk but in some minds its all good stuff. Again to each his own, I really don't care what anybody runs for oil because its their choice.

Greg

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:30 pm

vtdog wrote:

So, I have three questions regarding Amsoil

1. Nobody has answered my original question: Why don't they submit the oil for API testing which is the "standard" for oil capabilities.

That’s a great question. Why isn’t AMSOIL API certified? Amsoil exceeds API requirements and it’s not necessary to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get that seal on your bottle. Actually, Amsoil produced the first API certified synthetic engine oil in the early 1970‘s. The first “can” of oil was a 25,000 mile 10W-40 synthetic motor oil that was available on the market in 1972, Amsoil was the first Company to introduce the 35,000 mile synthetic motor oil and 25,000 mile synthetic Absolute Efficiency Nano-fiber oil filters. Amsoil’s Nano-fiber filters are 98% efficient at 15 microns and 50% efficient at 7 microns. Put it like this, Amsoil covers your warranty because it already meets the API requirements. "Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle? Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty.)" Remember, poor quality oil such as Pennzoil is API approved, that doesn’t say much does it?

"Amsoil is the Best Lubricant made, the Standard to which all others are judged." Bobby Unser three time Indy 500 Winner, 35 overall Indy Car wins, & 13 time Pikes Peak Hill Climb Winner.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:39 pm

API is the American Petroleum Institute

Synthetics aren't petroleum - at least pure Group IV/V synthetics aren't, you can make them with Carbon Monoxide and Hydrogen - gases. (them don't normally do that, but they can)

ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials the standards for how you test.

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers - they determine what you need.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Quote:

That’s a great question. Why isn’t AMSOIL API certified? Amsoil exceeds API requirements and it’s not necessary to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get that seal on your bottle. Actually, Amsoil produced the first API certified synthetic engine oil in the early 1970‘s. The first “can” of oil was a 25,000 mile 10W-40 synthetic motor oil that was available on the market in 1972, Amsoil was the first Company to introduce the 35,000 mile synthetic motor oil and 25,000 mile synthetic Absolute Efficiency Nano-fiber oil filters. Amsoil’s Nano-fiber filters are 98% efficient at 15 microns and 50% efficient at 7 microns. Put it like this, Amsoil covers your warranty because it already meets the API requirements. "Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle? Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty.)" Remember, poor quality oil such as Pennzoil is API approved, that doesn’t say much does it?

"Amsoil is the Best Lubricant made, the Standard to which all others are judged." Bobby Unser three time Indy 500 Winner, 35 overall Indy Car wins, & 13 time Pikes Peak Hill Climb Winner

Your answer to my question does not answer the question. I hate to be the doubter, but until and unless empiricall evidence from an independent lab showing how Amsoil conforms to the industry standard that is used to judge all lubricants is revealed, I will not be convinced.

Anecdotal evidence ("I drove a million miles in my Peterbuit going up Pikes Peak backward, etc", or possible paid endorsements like a racing driver are evidence of nothing. They put STP stickers on race cars, for example. It does nothing, but you can get an endorsement from the driver.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

vtdog wrote:

Quote:

That’s a great question. Why isn’t AMSOIL API certified? Amsoil exceeds API requirements and it’s not necessary to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get that seal on your bottle. Actually, Amsoil produced the first API certified synthetic engine oil in the early 1970‘s. The first “can” of oil was a 25,000 mile 10W-40 synthetic motor oil that was available on the market in 1972, Amsoil was the first Company to introduce the 35,000 mile synthetic motor oil and 25,000 mile synthetic Absolute Efficiency Nano-fiber oil filters. Amsoil’s Nano-fiber filters are 98% efficient at 15 microns and 50% efficient at 7 microns. Put it like this, Amsoil covers your warranty because it already meets the API requirements. "Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle? Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty.)" Remember, poor quality oil such as Pennzoil is API approved, that doesn’t say much does it?

"Amsoil is the Best Lubricant made, the Standard to which all others are judged." Bobby Unser three time Indy 500 Winner, 35 overall Indy Car wins, & 13 time Pikes Peak Hill Climb Winner

Your answer to my question does not answer the question. I hate to be the doubter, but until and unless empiricall evidence from an independent lab showing how Amsoil conforms to the industry standard that is used to judge all lubricants is revealed, I will not be convinced.

Anecdotal evidence ("I drove a million miles in my Peterbuit going up Pikes Peak backward, etc", or possible paid endorsements like a racing driver are evidence of nothing. They put STP stickers on race cars, for example. It does nothing, but you can get an endorsement from the driver.

Thats exactly my point. When the forums are all sponsored by Amsoil dealers, when discussion of the possible negatives is muted by mods recieving money, when the only charts and testing data are provided by Amsoil themselves, well, its not that I'm saying the product is crap its that I'm saying that there is no proof its what it claims to be. And considering the price it needs to be more than just 'slightly better than Mobil1 Synth', it needs to be 2-3x better and proven to be.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:16 pm

vtdog wrote:

2. What does that 4 ball test really mean. Is the approx .3mm difference in scaring of any signifigance. I don't know what the ASTM protocol is for that test, but does it have any application to long term engine part wear

Unsurpassed Protection Against Engine Wear
"In the Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172B) AMSOIL HDD demonstrated better anti-wear performance than competitive petroleum and synthetic oils. Even under high temperatures and pressures, its superior film strength and anti-wear additives help prevent metal-to-metal contact. AMSOIL HDD reduces ring wear, cylinder bore polishing, oil consumption and valve train wear for improved engine life and lower maintenance costs."

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:23 pm

[quote="vtdog"]
Your answer to my question does not answer the question. I hate to be the doubter, but until and unless empiricall evidence from an independent lab showing how Amsoil conforms to the industry standard that is used to judge all lubricants is revealed, I will not be convinced.quote]

My answer is clear, you just don’t like the answer.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:57 pm

vtdog wrote:

3. Are there other test which show Amsoil "worse" than other syn oils

Nice question. Amsoil has been the leading oil since the early 1970’s. Multi-faceted testing has been performed by multiple Independent labs, road testing, and field experience to show, time after time, that AMSOIL is the leader in the highest quality synthetic oil, gear lube, oil filtration, air filtration, transmission fluid, and axel/wheel bearing greases. Too bad you’re letting a “seal” on a bottle keep you from using a great product. Again, if an oil analysis proves that your oil is superior, why would you care if an oil is API approved? Amsoil meets and exceeds API qualifications, Amsoil covers your warranty, Amsoil has the best lubrication, the strongest film strength, and the longest interval. Never, in the history of Amsoil, have they ever lost a Lawsuit in a warranty issue on any of their products.

Trying to learn how Amsoil works

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