Trying to learn how Amsoil works

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:02 am

Oh come on! Heating oil improver? That's pushing it.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

nursecosmo wrote:

Oh come on! Heating oil improver? That's pushing it.

I wanna see 'smooth molecules'...

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

A good read on the topic I found:

Quote:

Synthetic Oil

Advantages of Synthetic
Synthetic oil was originally developed for high performance racing engines. Mobil tried to popularize synthetic oil for passenger vehicles back in the early 1970's. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20K or 25K oil changes with synthetic, but they soon backed down from this. Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a vehicle with a high performance engine (in fact synthetic is required for many of these engines). It is also a good choice if your vehicle is operated in extremely cold climates. It has higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in moderate climates. You probably could go a bit longer between oil changes with a synthetic, i.e. following the normal service schedule even if you fall into the severe service category, but I wouldn't advise this. In short, synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is far better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine. The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate these benefits onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as "synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other such nonsense.

Extended Change Intervals
Most manufacturers of synthetic oil advise users to not exceed the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval. Part of this is self interest (they don't want to be liable for any damage) but the real reason is that synthetic oil, while it does have certain advantages, still becomes contaminated.

Be extremely wary of synthetic oil companies that offer to pay for your repairs if it is determined that their oil and their extended change interval recommendation caused the problem. Think for a moment of the incredible hassle you would have to go through to prove responsibility for an engine problem. Who would pay your legal bills? Who would pay for replacement transportation during the battle? The more bizarre the warranty the poorer the product is a good rule of thumb.

API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Amsoil
Amsoil actually makes some very good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if I could buy them in a store, I would not hesitate to use their XL-7500 synthetic as opposed to Mobil 1. What upsets me about Amsoil is that they didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company.

http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:09 am

"Emissions System Protection An initial goal for GF-3 was to reduce
phosphorus levels in engine oils. The primary source of phosphorus in
engine oils is an antiwear additive called ZDDP's. Although these additives
are extremely effective in wear reduction, some manufacturers believe
phosphorus contaminants are harmful to vehicles' catalytic converters.
However, since there is not total agreement in the automotive and
lubrication industries on this belief, and since automakers weren't
comfortable reducing the level of ZDDP in engine oils and sacrificing wear
protection, the goal was put on hold for the upcoming G-4 agenda.

GF-3 does, however, still offer improved emissions system protection
through improved oil consumption specifications. The less a motor oil
vaporizes, the less phosphorus contaminants end up in the exhaust. Motor
oils that demonstrate low volatility present less risk to catalytic
converters, despite their phosphorus levels. Because AMSOIL Synthetic Motor
Oils keep oil consumption to an absolute minimum, potentially damaging
phosphorus contaminants are not an issue. AMSOIL Motor Oils offer the
ultimate in both wear protection and emissions system protection, period."

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:15 am

"The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters."

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

*laff* Now Amsoil reduces emissions too! Man, what can't this miracle product do? Raise the dead? Turn lead to gold?

It has always amazed me how when confronted with facts, data and insightful analysis the method most often used by snake oil salesmen is not to address the concerns raised, but instead to up the ante, making the claim even more outrageous in the hope that they will generate a willing suspension of disbelief in the audience, where the potential benefits of their offer outweighs all possible criticisms, concerns or intellectual thought.

Its an interesting mindset, if someone does not believe your product can do what it claims, simply raise the price and claim it does even more, after all for that price it *must* be a miracle substance, right?

Uffe · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:34 am

Okay - I guess whoever shouts enough wins.

Great thread this suddenly became.

Nice images though, hope it was worth it for you...

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:00 am

Uffe wrote:

Great thread this suddenly became.
Nice images though, hope it was worth it for you...

I’m here to show people a great product. There’s nothing in it for me, except knowing that I have helped my fellow KJ members become informed. If I can contribute a small portion back to the forum, then it’s worth every ounce of my time.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Holy crap. I think it is time for an intervention and deprogramming. We get it, you guys like Amsoil.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:55 am

If the ZDDP is such an issue to the cat converter then why are all of the Amsoil users (and users of other brands w/ high ZDDP) not reporting problems w/ their cats?? Search around the Cherokee and other model Jeep forums that use the 4.0L and you will find many of them discussing ways to increase their ZDDP levels and they are finding other brand oils w/ higher ZDDP levels to use and they too are not reporting ZDDP related cat converter problems either. Amsoil products have been in use by vehicles w/ cats since cats started being used. I would imagine that if it was a real serious problem we would be hearing about all the bad converters because of it.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:56 am

Threeweight wrote:

Holy crap. I think it is time for an intervention and deprogramming. We get it, you guys like Amsoil.

Will coolaid and adidas be made available?? :wink:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:25 am

Reflex wrote:

Cowpie1 wrote:

Reflex wrote:

Cowpie - At what point were we talking about large diesels and their 12 quart capacities(and higher)? I said 'consumer level' for a reason.

Once again, if they have nothing to hide, why have they flooded the internet with shills and fake 'review' websites? The product should speak for itself, and they should have nothing to fear from independant analysis.

But the oil being used is the same "consumer" oil that you would put in a CRD or a Dodge Cummins. Same "consumer" Rotella, Mobil Delvac, etc. Just because it is going in a large diesel does not magically make it last longer. There is NO difference in the oil and to say it can't last over 6K miles is not factual. It depends on a lot of factors. You would be right in saying the oil won't last 6K miles if the engine does nothing but idle or never warmed up properly. The acid buildup would deplete the TBN really quick. A large diesel that is used for primarily city work will need an oil change quicker than one that primarily is running down the road. The same is true for the CRD. Mine is primarily run out on the road, and 12K mile or more oil change intervals work as proven by oil analysis.

Excuse my terminology here as I'm sure its all wrong, but isn't the point of oil to suspend harmful elements and keep them from impacting moving parts? So it stands to reason that if you have more oil in a vehicle that you will have longer intervals between oil changes, after all you have the capacity to suspend far more in that oil. I don't think comparing vehicles with 12+ quart capacities to our CRD's is very appropriate, and I maintain that if you run Amsoil in our CRD's for 25k between oil changes you WILL kill the vehicle. Its not magic, its just oil.

Cowpie - FWIW, you're right - using oil analysis to determine oil condition and extend oil drain intervals is a tried and proven technique, regardless if it's an 18 wheeler with an 8 gallon sump or a VW TDI with 5 quarts - works the same and equally well in both cases.

But as Cowpie stated, he used oil analysis to determine the condition of the oil and safely extend his oil drain intervals based on the test results. To simply run 2 or 3 times the factory interval without doing oil analysis is rolling the dice and plain stupid. Oil analysis and extended drain intervals go hand in hand.

And the same oil analysis Cowpie uses on his 18 wheeler is available at the consumer level. Just do a search on engine oil analysis and you can find several websites that sell oil analysis kits.

Reflex - all you displayed with the above comments is a severe lack of knowledge of how the concept of oil analysis testing and extended oil drain intervals work. As you once said, Google is your friend - do a little research before telling others they're full of BS.

And you COULD run a CRD on the same engine oil - ANY brand oil - for 25K or even 50K miles - IF you did oil analysis at regular intervals and IF the results showed that the oil was in good condition and still offered adequate protection.

To make a blanket statement either way - that YES you can run XXX brand oil for 25K miles guaranteed - or NO you will kill your engine if you run the same oil for 25K miles - now THAT IS bulls###.

It's not magic, it's science.

As far as this thread itself - ROTFLMAO watching another knock-down drag-out concerning the religion of which oil to use. Politics, Religion, and Engine Oil - 3 topics guaranteed to start an argument.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Since an Oil Analysis costs roughly the same as 6 qts of syn oil at walmart it does not make sense from an economic standpoint to do anything but change the oil at the recommended intervals. If you do the analysis to see the "health" of your engine, or to try and reduce your use of lubricants that is another story.

So, as I (and many others) have said, it does not make sense to spend the extra money on Amsoil if you are changing out at 6k miles anyway.

crd liberty · **Posted:** Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:32 pm

Yea, I'm back
Changed the rear diff. today with Amsoil.
No other comments on this post.
Steve

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

vtdog wrote:

Since an Oil Analysis costs roughly the same as 6 qts of syn oil at walmart it does not make sense from an economic standpoint to do anything but change the oil at the recommended intervals.

My thoughts exactly. Even using Mobil 1 5w40 tubodiesel oil (which I can catch on sale for around $17 a gallon here), a 6k interval change on my CRD runs me less than $35, filter included.

Using VW 505.1 or 507 approved oil, my wife's TDI has a factory recommended interval of 10k... those changes run me roughly $40-50 bucks a pop.

I find the oil analysis stuff fascinating, and I really appreciate the folks who are doing it for the help they give others in selecting a quality oil. On the other hand, it strikes me more as a hobby than a cost-effective approach to maintaining your engine.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:09 pm

crd liberty wrote:

Yea, I'm back
Changed the rear diff. today with Amsoil.
No other comments on this post.
Steve

Good for you Steve! :!:

I'm glad that we helped answer your questions.....................What a great forum!

I’m sorry this thread was a little uncomfortable for you at times, but obviously you stayed with us and your final decision was a good one! :wink:

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:29 pm

Threeweight wrote:

vtdog wrote:

Since an Oil Analysis costs roughly the same as 6 qts of syn oil at walmart it does not make sense from an economic standpoint to do anything but change the oil at the recommended intervals.

My thoughts exactly. Even using Mobil 1 5w40 tubodiesel oil (which I can catch on sale for around $17 a gallon here), a 6k interval change on my CRD runs me less than $35, filter included.

Using VW 505.1 or 507 approved oil, my wife's TDI has a factory recommended interval of 10k... those changes run me roughly $40-50 bucks a pop.

I find the oil analysis stuff fascinating, and I really appreciate the folks who are doing it for the help they give others in selecting a quality oil. On the other hand, it strikes me more as a hobby than a cost-effective approach to maintaining your engine.

Vtdog and Threeweight, I couldn’t agree with you anymore. You both are right, Amsoil is not going to be cost effective if you’re not taking advantage of longer intervals accompanied by an oil analysis. My purpose and involvement concerning this thread was to inform people that Amsoil does make excellent products and to show that their products are NOT snake oil! Furthermore, I attempted to make this thread helpful to viewers by showing what Amsoil products are CRD specific.

And “YES”, taking oil samples is an invested interest as well as a hobby for me!

chrispitude · **Posted:** Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:36 pm

Random thought - it seems like a Fumoto takes a lot of the annoyance out of drawing oil samples for UOA (used oil analysis). That's pretty cool.

- Chris

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:26 pm

chrispitude wrote:

Random thought - it seems like a Fumoto takes a lot of the annoyance out of drawing oil samples for UOA (used oil analysis). That's pretty cool.

- Chris

I totally agree. I use the Amsoil pump, which does pump rather quickly. It takes less than 10 minuets to withdrawal the sample, bottle, and package. I buy the prepaid package kit, which cuts back on time. The Fumoto would also avoid having to buy new tubing every time you performed an oil sample. It takes me over 5 feet of tubing for my Dodge Cummins. The engine oil dip stick itself is 4 feet long. The Fumoto drain valve would be my recommended choice.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

Unless the Fumoto is clean and you then run out a pint or so of oil before sampling I would stay away from it. The theft sampler with a double dumb before is way better. Do your sampling method the same every time as well.

Greg

Trying to learn how Amsoil works

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