Trying to learn how Amsoil works

crd liberty · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:03 pm

Amsoil 75w-140 Severe Gear 14.30
Mobile 1 75w-140 15.38 (Advance Auto)

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:13 pm

crd liberty wrote:

Amsoil 75w-140 Severe Gear 14.30
Mobile 1 75w-140 15.38 (Advance Auto)

Don't now why your prices are so much higher,I just bought 4 qts of Mobil 1 75w140 gear oil for $9.49 a qt at Napa,RP 75w-140 was $8.99,and Valvoline 75w-140 was $12.49 a qt.Layton truck supply here in the springs has Amsoil for $13.49 a qt for 75w-140 gear oil,to bad it's about 15miles from my place :evil:

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crd liberty · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:22 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

crd liberty wrote:

Amsoil 75w-140 Severe Gear 14.30
Mobile 1 75w-140 15.38 (Advance Auto)

Don't now why your prices are so much higher,I just bought 4 qts of Mobil 1 75w140 gear oil for $9.49 a qt at Napa,RP 75w-140 was $8.99,and Valvoline 75w-140 was $12.49 a qt.Layton truck supply here in the springs has Amsoil for $13.49 a qt for 75w-140 gear oil,to bad it's about 15miles from my place :evil:

.

Don't have a clue, except local franchise dealerships?

Steve

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

It seems many people change the oil in their cars too often, and the ones that do generally pay a premium for the "best" oil. Not sure it makes enough difference over the life of the engine to make up for the cost. In addition, do I really need to change the differential oil 8 times in the first 2 1/2 years I will have owned my CRD? I doubt it.

I have loved this thread!

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:01 pm

midwest wrote:

It seems many people change the oil in their cars too often, and the ones that do generally pay a premium for the "best" oil. Not sure it makes enough difference over the life of the engine to make up for the cost. In addition, do I really need to change the differential oil 8 times in the first 2 1/2 years I will have owned my CRD? I doubt it.

I have loved this thread!

The Amsoil Severe Gear Oil recommends drain intervals at 50,000 miles of service or according to the owner’s manual, whichever is longer.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:29 pm

Mineral oil is a mixture of different oil molecules that blend to make a desirable viscosity for the application. Synthetic oil has almost all of the oil molecules the same and changes less in structure as is is used since the lighter molecules do not boil out or burn out of the mixture. Additives are used to the specific application, such as Engine oil, Hydraulic, gear oil, ect. Since the synthetic oil is less apt to break down, manufactures often extend the recommended change interval.

On some applications such as large stationary engines, oil is not changed but goes through a centrifuge to remove solids, analyzed and needed additives replenished.

On applications such as Lawn Mowers, having an Oil Analysis would be stupid since the cost of the oil would be less than $5 and the cheapest price I have seen for oil analysis is $20-$30.

On applications such as hydraulic systems where the manufacturer requires the use of a Synthetic Biodegradable Hydraulic Fluid made by either Panolin or Amsoil, not doing an oil analysis would be stupid since the life expectancy of that type of Synthetic Biodegradable Hydraulic Fluid is roughly 60 years if not contaminated and filters are changed yearly.

VM designed the 2.8L to run on synthetic oil and polished up the crank, bearing inserts, and gears to run on thinner synthetic oil to increase the engine efficiency, as have other manufactures done.

When it comes to our Liberty CRDs, Cost Benefit Analysis is the best way to determine when to change our Synthetic oil or have the Oil Analysis done. My biggest objection is the problems with shipping to the lab, if there were a Lab, or an OTR truck dealer or heavy equipment near by, I would go for it.

Steve

P.S. For any one who plans to or uses Mineral oil in their CRD engines, please let us know when you put it on Craig's list so we can buy it for parts

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:55 am

warp2diesel wrote:

Mineral oil is a mixture of different oil molecules that blend to make a desirable viscosity for the application. Synthetic oil has almost all of the oil molecules the same and changes less in structure as is is used since the lighter molecules do not boil out or burn out of the mixture. Additives are used to the specific application, such as Engine oil, Hydraulic, gear oil, ect. Since the synthetic oil is less apt to break down, manufactures often extend the recommended change interval.

On some applications such as large stationary engines, oil is not changed but goes through a centrifuge to remove solids, analyzed and needed additives replenished.

On applications such as Lawn Mowers, having an Oil Analysis would be stupid since the cost of the oil would be less than $5 and the cheapest price I have seen for oil analysis is $20-$30.

On applications such as hydraulic systems where the manufacturer requires the use of a Synthetic Biodegradable Hydraulic Fluid made by either Panolin or Amsoil, not doing an oil analysis would be stupid since the life expectancy of that type of Synthetic Biodegradable Hydraulic Fluid is roughly 60 years if not contaminated and filters are changed yearly.

VM designed the 2.8L to run on synthetic oil and polished up the crank, bearing inserts, and gears to run on thinner synthetic oil to increase the engine efficiency, as have other manufactures done.

When it comes to our Liberty CRDs, Cost Benefit Analysis is the best way to determine when to change our Synthetic oil or have the Oil Analysis done. My biggest objection is the problems with shipping to the lab, if there were a Lab, or an OTR truck dealer or heavy equipment near by, I would go for it.

Steve

P.S. For any one who plans to or uses Mineral oil in their CRD engines, please let us know when you put it on Craig's list so we can buy it for parts

Synthetics have shown to provide better emissions, better fuel efficiency, and less wear, so it would only make sense that VM designed the CRD to take advantage of the extra efficiency. I think the CRD with a good by-pass filter could really see amazing “extended” intervals. I wouldn’t be surprised if the CRD, while running the Amsoil HDD 5W30, reached 50.000 miles on one interval, especially when combined with highway driven miles. The Dodge Cummins users are seeing 30,000 + mile intervals with the 5W30 while pulling heavy loads with good UOA’s. Once people starting juicing up their engines (by adding an additional 300 hp and an extra 1,000 ft lbs), then obviously the intervals, according to UOA’s may be shortened. The fuel efficiency of the 5W30 has been noted to average 2-6% fuel increase depending on the application. My 5.9L, Inline 6, Cummins only holds 12 quarts from the factory. So by adding the by-pass, I have increased my capacity by approximately 2 quarts. I now only change oil in my Jeep and Truck once a year, and according to the oil analysis, I’m still disposing of good usable oil.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Synthetics have shown to provide better emissions, better fuel efficiency, and less wear

By who? Where is the study? The studies presented so far have been hypothetical, if you have a study that used actual vehicles, I'd really like to see it. I especially want to see the emissions and fuel efficiency claims proven empirically.

Anecdotes mean nothing, show me the studies.

chrispitude · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:46 am

Reflex wrote:

Anecdotes mean nothing, show me the studies.

It's not a scientific study, but it is empirical evidence. In the late 1990s, I lived in a rental house and kept my 86 Omni GLHS outside. In the winter, the car was starting to crank slowly in the mornings. I swapped from 5W30 conventional to 5W30 synthetic (Pep Boys store brand synthetic, no less) and the cold cranking speed improved noticeably. I also picked up roughly 1 to 1.5 mpg compared to my previous averages (I had a massive spreadsheet where I tracked each and every tank of fuel).

From that point onward, I was sold on the benefits of synthetic oil for its good flow characteristics.

- Chris

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:05 am

Reflex wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Synthetics have shown to provide better emissions, better fuel efficiency, and less wear

By who? Where is the study? The studies presented so far have been hypothetical, if you have a study that used actual vehicles, I'd really like to see it. I especially want to see the emissions and fuel efficiency claims proven empirically.

Anecdotes mean nothing, show me the studies.

Been proved by drag racers for years,well at least in the engines efficiency and wear department,but better efficiency equals more mpg's when driven normally.Switching to full synthetics has also been proved on chassis dyno's to gain upwards of 5%-10% increase in HP and torque.

Somewhere in my mess of paperwork I have dyno #'s from my '75 Cutlass's 350.Tuned and broke it in on a dyno with dino oil,first pull it maxed at 450HP and around 510lbs-ft or torque(fully tuned in),after drianing the oil and putting in the normal 10w30 Mobil 1 and made 5 more pulls the HP went up to 480HP and 550lbs-ft of torque.

I always use to cheapest dino oil to break engines in with(run for 100 miles or equal to)so the oil doesn't lubricate very well to speed up the breakin process.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

chrispitude wrote:

Reflex wrote:

Anecdotes mean nothing, show me the studies.

It's not a scientific study, but it is empirical evidence. In the late 1990s, I lived in a rental house and kept my 86 Omni GLHS outside. In the winter, the car was starting to crank slowly in the mornings. I swapped from 5W30 conventional to 5W30 synthetic (Pep Boys store brand synthetic, no less) and the cold cranking speed improved noticeably. I also picked up roughly 1 to 1.5 mpg compared to my previous averages (I had a massive spreadsheet where I tracked each and every tank of fuel).

From that point onward, I was sold on the benefits of synthetic oil for its good flow characteristics.

- Chris

What did you use as your control: ie: same type of vehicle in the same conditions and roughly the same miles. How can you demonstrate that you were not at a point where the engine was more broken in, or that it had something to do with the weather or the fuel additives got changed at your regular station. In other words: What is your proof that it had anything to do with the oil change?

This is why studies are performed, to eliminate the outside factors. Without a control, its just anecdotal.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:02 pm

Reflex wrote:

chrispitude wrote:

Reflex wrote:

Anecdotes mean nothing, show me the studies.

It's not a scientific study, but it is empirical evidence. In the late 1990s, I lived in a rental house and kept my 86 Omni GLHS outside. In the winter, the car was starting to crank slowly in the mornings. I swapped from 5W30 conventional to 5W30 synthetic (Pep Boys store brand synthetic, no less) and the cold cranking speed improved noticeably. I also picked up roughly 1 to 1.5 mpg compared to my previous averages (I had a massive spreadsheet where I tracked each and every tank of fuel).

From that point onward, I was sold on the benefits of synthetic oil for its good flow characteristics.

- Chris

What did you use as your control: ie: same type of vehicle in the same conditions and roughly the same miles. How can you demonstrate that you were not at a point where the engine was more broken in, or that it had something to do with the weather or the fuel additives got changed at your regular station. In other words: What is your proof that it had anything to do with the oil change?

This is why studies are performed, to eliminate the outside factors. Without a control, its just anecdotal.

Your not going to have any controls with vehicles,even two identical vehicles(same brand,make and model) will be vastly different from each other as far as the engine internals and such(clearances).Welcome to mass production.

You have zero proof yourself saying that it doesn't work,lets see some of your studies saying it doesn't work.Just because there aren't any studies done(trust me there is,search a little,you might have to use your brain a little) doesn't mean it doesn't work,heck most of the studies are probally highly guarded secrets in the oil companies.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:31 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

Reflex wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Synthetics have shown to provide better emissions, better fuel efficiency, and less wear

By who? Where is the study? The studies presented so far have been hypothetical, if you have a study that used actual vehicles, I'd really like to see it. I especially want to see the emissions and fuel efficiency claims proven empirically.

Anecdotes mean nothing, show me the studies.

Been proved by drag racers for years,well at least in the engines efficiency and wear department,but better efficiency equals more mpg's when driven normally.Switching to full synthetics has also been proved on chassis dyno's to gain upwards of 5%-10% increase in HP and torque.

Somewhere in my mess of paperwork I have dyno #'s from my '75 Cutlass's 350.Tuned and broke it in on a dyno with dino oil,first pull it maxed at 450HP and around 510lbs-ft or torque(fully tuned in),after drianing the oil and putting in the normal 10w30 Mobil 1 and made 5 more pulls the HP went up to 480HP and 550lbs-ft of torque.

I always use to cheapest dino oil to break engines in with(run for 100 miles or equal to)so the oil doesn't lubricate very well to speed up the breakin process.

Actually, that is a great point. A lot of NEW automobiles are now coming off the assembly line with engines that have already been broken-in. This is one reason why you can run “Full Synthetic” in a new vehicle. As Troy pointed out, people who have their engines rebuilt CAN use full synthetic engine oil to break-in their engines, HOWEVER the process WILL take much longer. The internet is loaded with all kinds of data showing that synthetics reduces emissions, reduces friction, increases fuel economy, and prolongs the life of the engine at longer intervals. Even my Dodge Cummins owners manual mentions that using a synthetic engine oil may promote longer intervals. I think Reflex is the only one on this thread who is a skeptic, therefore he can use his time to find the research that will satisfy his personal needs. In addition, synthetics do not have near the problems with sludge build up as compared to a non-synthetic oil. As a matter of fact, people who start running a super high detergent oil (such as the Amsoil HDD 5W30) after, lets say 100,000 miles of petroleum oil, may actually experience leaking gaskets because the detergent cleans and removes sludge. The myth is that synthetic oils causes the leaks. However, those gaskets were already bad way before the synthetic was introduced. Sludge does help “temporarily” seal bad gaskets. I’ve also heard about people switching from YEARS of petroleum oil to full synthetics say that their oil was dirtier once they FIRST changed to synthetic. One reason for doing an engine flush is to help clean the engine from unwanted gunk. Synthetics, (with a high package of additives and detergents) will further clean the engine. In this case scenario, it is important that people are using a high quality oil filter that will trap unwanted debris. Running a by-pass is the icing on the cake. I can’t tell you how amazing it is to see used diesel engine oil look like used gasoline engine oil because the by-pass is removing the soot.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

tjkj2002 wrote:

Your not going to have any controls with vehicles,even two identical vehicles(same brand,make and model) will be vastly different from each other as far as the engine internals and such(clearances).Welcome to mass production.

Actually such studies are performed by auto manufacturers for thier own certification of oils. However apparantly Amsoil prevents auto manufacturers from running or at least publishing such test results. I do not know what the reasoning is, although I can certainly hazard a guess.

Quote:

You have zero proof yourself saying that it doesn't work,lets see some of your studies saying it doesn't work.Just because there aren't any studies done(trust me there is,search a little,you might have to use your brain a little) doesn't mean it doesn't work,heck most of the studies are probally highly guarded secrets in the oil companies.

Of course I can't 'prove it dosen't work' as its impossible to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on those making the claim, not the skeptic. If you posit that the universe was created by a superintelligent mouse 10 years ago its not my job to prove you incorrect, its your job to prove your case.

dieselenthusiast - I'll appreciate it if you do not lie about this thread. Several of the most technical people on this forum have weighed in on this thread and most of them said that any potential benefits of Amsoil would not outweigh the costs, if they were able to be realized at all. Don't pretend otherwise.

chrispitude · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:10 pm

Reflex wrote:

What did you use as your control: ie: same type of vehicle in the same conditions and roughly the same miles. How can you demonstrate that you were not at a point where the engine was more broken in, or that it had something to do with the weather or the fuel additives got changed at your regular station. In other words: What is your proof that it had anything to do with the oil change?

I'm not sure which part of "it wasn't a scientific study" wasn't clear. The engine had about 120k miles on it so I doubt a sudden change in wear was the reason it cranked noticeably faster the next morning after that oil change. (And since when do fuel additives have anything to do with the engine's cranking speed before it fires?)

Anyone who has switched from conventional to synthetic oil in the dead of a northern winter has experienced this.

- Chris

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:33 pm

Quote:

Of course I can't 'prove it dosen't work' as its impossible to prove a negative.

It is possible to prove a negitive,poeple do it every day.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:43 pm

Reflex wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

Your not going to have any controls with vehicles,even two identical vehicles(same brand,make and model) will be vastly different from each other as far as the engine internals and such(clearances).Welcome to mass production.

Actually such studies are performed by auto manufacturers for thier own certification of oils. However apparantly Amsoil prevents auto manufacturers from running or at least publishing such test results. I do not know what the reasoning is, although I can certainly hazard a guess.

Quote:

You have zero proof yourself saying that it doesn't work,lets see some of your studies saying it doesn't work.Just because there aren't any studies done(trust me there is,search a little,you might have to use your brain a little) doesn't mean it doesn't work,heck most of the studies are probally highly guarded secrets in the oil companies.

Of course I can't 'prove it dosen't work' as its impossible to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on those making the claim, not the skeptic. If you posit that the universe was created by a superintelligent mouse 10 years ago its not my job to prove you incorrect, its your job to prove your case.

dieselenthusiast - I'll appreciate it if you do not lie about this thread. Several of the most technical people on this forum have weighed in on this thread and most of them said that any potential benefits of Amsoil would not outweigh the costs, if they were able to be realized at all. Don't pretend otherwise.

Where do you find info that Amsoil stops anyone from publishing anything? You have mentioned that a couple times now but I have seen no evidence.

And who are these "technical people" and where is the proof that what they say is true and what is it based on?

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

Actually such studies are performed by auto manufacturers for thier own certification of oils. However apparantly Amsoil prevents auto manufacturers from running or at least publishing such test results. I do not know what the reasoning is, although I can certainly hazard a guess.

Whats makes you think Amsoil prevents auto manufactures from testing their oil and/or publish the test results?

Greg

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

The Amsoil preventing auto manufacturing certification has been mentioned all over the web, on Wikipedia(for what thats worth), etc, I cannot find a hard source for it but the fact that I can ask them about just about any oil, synthetic or not and get an answer says quite a bit in itself. I do know that its entirely possible to block such publishing, it happens in the tech industry all the time when OEM's do not like web site reviews.

chris - Once again thats not empiracle evidence, empiracle evidence requires a repeatable experiment, and your assertion does not make it 'proven'. However even if it were true, you still have the burden to prove that Amsoil handles this condition any better than any other synthetic, as several people in this thread have pointed out, Amsoil has negligible(and unproven) benefits over several other synthetic brands, yet costs significantly more than most.

And I'm not going to quote the whole first ten pages of this thread where members such as Uffe and nursecosmo among others pointed out the fallacy of the Amsoil claims. The point is that the most technical members who have participated have almost all spoken against it, while the retailers, shills and dupes with little technical knowledge has spoken in favor of it. That says quite a bit right there.

chrispitude · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:09 pm

Reflex wrote:

chris - Once again thats not empiracle evidence, empiracle evidence requires a repeatable experiment, and your assertion does not make it 'proven'. However even if it were true, you still have the burden to prove that Amsoil handles this condition any better than any other synthetic, as several people in this thread have pointed out, Amsoil has negligible(and unproven) benefits over several other synthetic brands, yet costs significantly more than most.

I don't have the burden of proof to prove anything about Amsoil. In fact, I've never even used Amsoil motor oil. I was responding to your previous post. Here, let me quote it for you:

Reflex wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Synthetics have shown to provide better emissions, better fuel efficiency, and less wear

By who? Where is the study? The studies presented so far have been hypothetical, if you have a study that used actual vehicles, I'd really like to see it. I especially want to see the emissions and fuel efficiency claims proven empirically.

We're all amused watching you chase your tail here.

- Chris

Trying to learn how Amsoil works

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