SHELL commercial & GTL synthetic diesel

blake1827 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:16 pm

Watching tee vee this morning I twice caught a Shell commercial praising (natural) Gas to Liquid diesel, well it's still mixed with ULSD but claims to drastically decrease emissions. Very slick website here: http://realenergy.shell.com/?lang=en&page=GTLWhatIs&site_version=flash#GTLWhatIs

"GTL diesel has extremely low (0-5-ppm) sulfur, aromatics, and toxics. GTL fuel can be blended with non-complying CARB diesel fuel to make a cleaner diesel fuel complying with stringent diesel fuel standards." from http://www.energy.ca.gov/afvs/synthetic_diesel.html

The lower sulfur while good for the environment would increase the need for more lubrication in the fuel, but it does seem to have some promise although I think I would still prefer biodiesel and keeping my fingers crossed for algae. I don't see this as a long term solution by any means, but hope it may help ease prices.
According to Shell it's already in use in Europe and I wonder if any of our Euro CRD owners have any opinions?
Thoughts anyone?

honey_don't · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:35 pm

GTL can also be made from biomass. There is a guy on TDIclub who is a huge advocate and posts lots of good info. Check out these two recent posts of his for some interesting details:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php? ... ostcount=9

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=22

GTL fuel is available in the US here: http://www.hiperfuels.com/catalog.aspx? ... ptID=81049

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:29 pm

I'd like to see a comparison of GTL vs biodiesel (from any of the current stocks) to see differences in SO, CO, and particulate.

BTW, with that website, I had to fight the urge to right-click and start building a settlement near the ocean :wink:

Uffe · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:52 pm

I've heard many people mix gas and diesel (needs conversion kit for the car though) which gives better MPG (since the gas contributes energy but isn't weighed in with the gallon part

) is this the same deal?

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:51 pm

The term "gas to liquid" covers a lot of ground. Mostly these folks are talking about natural gas to liquid via the Fischer Tropsch process. Basically converting a lower prices petroleum gas into a liquid, easier to use, more expesive product. Smart boys!

You will also hear more soon about Liquified Coal, which is essentially the same thing. THey make a gas out of the coal, then F-T it into a stable liquid.

There are other ways to use the Fischer Tropsch process to take random biomass and turn it into a liquid fuel. This is, by the way, the most efficient way to use land to make biofuels (better than cellulosic ethanol) according to Hil/Tilman (the same guys writing about land use CO2 displacemant and biofuels). They have a pilot biomass F-T plant in Germay, this s the "Second GEnereation" biofuel level we keep hearing about from VW president (look it up under "sunpower diesel"). The F-T refineries are horrendously expensive, however, so you need a government behid you to start one. Hence Gemany...and hence not the US.

It is not possible to compare biomass derived F-T fuel convesion efficiency to Algae based fuels as the Algae technology is still up-and-coming. I kinda think that algae may win because algae refineries will be easier to build.

hatchetman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:55 pm

A company is supposed to start breaking ground on a coal to diesel/jet fuel conversion plant near Wellsville, OH this year. It is to be completed sometime in 2011-12. Suppposedly they have already signed a contract to supply Pittsburgh, PA airport with jet fuel. The estimated cost is 10-12 billion for the plant. They've stated that 1200 miners will need to work 24/7 to supply enough coal to the plant when it's up and running. Wish the government would have used the 150 billion in tax rebates to build 10-15 of these plants near sources of coal. Would have been a lot more forward thinking then this BS shortsighted $600 per taxpayer bribe/shut-up money that we(the government) had to borrow! :evil:

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:37 pm

hatchetman wrote:

A company is supposed to start breaking ground on a coal to diesel/jet fuel conversion plant near Wellsville, OH this year. It is to be completed sometime in 2011-12. Suppposedly they have already signed a contract to supply Pittsburgh, PA airport with jet fuel. The estimated cost is 10-12 billion for the plant. They've stated that 1200 miners will need to work 24/7 to supply enough coal to the plant when it's up and running. Wish the government would have used the 150 billion in tax rebates to build 10-15 of these plants near sources of coal. Would have been a lot more forward thinking then this BS shortsighted $600 per taxpayer bribe/shut-up money that we(the government) had to borrow! :evil:

Agreed, I think that kind of spending generates more stimulus for the economy than a rebate does, and has the further long lasting and sometimes intangible effects of energy diversification.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:37 pm

Problem is, it also requires a leader who isn't suffering from a terminal inter-rectal cranial infarction. Sad that we have to also have a leader that loves playing 'lip service' to every problem until the public isn't looking any more, then sells off a little more of the country to the corporate pillagers.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:03 am

geordi wrote:

Problem is, it also requires a leader who isn't suffering from a terminal inter-rectal cranial infarction. Sad that we have to also have a leader that loves playing 'lip service' to every problem until the public isn't looking any more, then sells off a little more of the country to the corporate pillagers.

While your preachin to the choir here, we are starting to tread on thin, rapidly melting ice, as much as I would continue this conversation in any other context, to keep this forum above the fray I think we should stop this line of thought here.

Uffe · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:14 am

Sam you're being too sensitive - I for one could have used a little rant on an american president this morning

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:53 am

Uffe wrote:

Sam you're being too sensitive - I for one could have used a little rant on an american president this morning

Uffe, my ranting and raving has gone on for 7 years now while my outrage and disgust has increased proportionally. I can only preach to the choir so much, and the partitioners aren't listening.

If I want this thread to continue and have any sense of decorum for a rational discussion I must avoid the tangents of which I could digress for the better part of a day before my throat was sore and swollen vocal chords forced me to stop.

In short, I'm bitched and moaned out.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:45 pm

I've got a copy of Diesel Power somewhere from a year or two past that had an article on several of the GTL and BTL processes.

As far as the natural gas to liquid process, most often what they refer to when talking about GTL, this is one the oil companies like - it actually saves them money and gives them more product to sell.

Instead of having to build natural gas handling facilities and pipelines, or shipping it as CNG or LNG, or simply just burning it off in well head flares, it allows them to convert it into an easily transportable form (distillate fuel) that's in just as much demand as natural gas.

From what I've read, these GTL processors can be made small enough to be somewhat mobile - this allows them to transport these plants out to smaller natural gas fields that wouldn't be worth the expense of recovering by conventional means, convert what gas is recoverable to liquid distillate fuel, and simply ship it out via tanker truck or a conventional pipeline.

If I remember correctly, in the same article I mentioned the country of Dubai was building a large GTL plant - they have large natural gas reserves but no easy/economical means of storing and transporting it to other countries. Instead of simply burning it off at the well head, they can now convert it to an easily storeable and transportable form.

It also stated in the article that besides being much cleaner than regular ULSD, the fuel created by the process came out at 73 cetane! :shock:

Can you say rocket fuel? That would be one other reason for blending it with ULSD - cuts the GTL down to an acceptable cetane level, and a nice cetane boost for ULSD.

One gent at work some years ago spent some time working in the oil fields in Alaska. He said at times there was so much heat generated from the well head flares burning off natural gas that you could literally work outside in your shirt sleeves in the middle of winter. Talk about CO2 emissions and a colossal waste of energy - imagine if that natural gas could be converted to liquid form such that it could be transported in the existing pipeline or at least via tanker truck to market.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:04 pm

Looking at the hiperfuels site, the prices on a 15 gallon or 55 gallon drum works out to $4/gallon - practically what we're paying at the pump now for ULSD.

I'm getting sorely tempted to order a 15 gallon drum, and try mixing in a gallon or two the next time I have to fill up the MB and/or the CRD, just to see how it performs. :twisted:

honey_don't · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:21 pm

retmil46: Please do and please post your results!!

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:48 pm

Crud, that's what I get for trying to do math before finishing my first pot of coffee - more like $6/gallon for the 15 gallon container, $4.09/gallon for the 55 gallon drum.

Hey, if nothing else, with the way fuel prices are going, I'd at least have 55 gallons of prepaid diesel fuel on hand. That's 8 weeks worth for the MB.

honey_don't · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:03 pm

I've read that this stuff is stable and has a long shelf life. :twisted:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:25 am

I did a little digging and found some info on the syndiesel Hiperfuels sells. Trade name is GEM Topaz Syndiesel, and a Google search gave me a link to the MSDS sheets for this company's products.

http://www.geocities.com/svenfoucault.geo/tdi/GEMSpecs.html

Syndiesel MSDS sheet is 2nd one from top.

Not made from natural gas apparently, but by a similar GTL/FT process - source was listed as "Alpha Olefin Process".

Apparently has more energy content than regular diesel as well - 20,300 btu/lb. Pour and cloud point below minus 60 F. 63 cetane.

Looks as though this has been around for a while already - found an ancient post on tdi club from '99 where one guy was going to buy some of this and try it out. Didn't manage to find out if he ever posted his results..

My friend in TX surmised that since they claimed a "candy" smell and they were located in the Houston area, it might be made from surgarcane biomass.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:06 pm

Received a reply back from Hiperfuels on shipping costs and the "2 or more" quantity discount listed on their website.

With shipping costs thrown in, even on a 55 gallon drum, the cost would be well over $6/gallon.

Shipping cost for a 4 drum pallet to a business location with loading facilties would be $420. For 2 or 3 drums, they said the shipping would be somewhat less but more expensive per drum - in other words, we're still probably talking in the $200 range for even one drum.

As for the price discount for ordering 2 or more drums, price per drum would be $206 instead of $225 - a $19 discount per drum.

One gent on tdiclub that lives in TX - shipping within the same state - said when he ordered a 15 gallon container from them, the shipping on a single 15 gallon container was $106.

Think I'll have to pass on this one - can't see spending over $1200 on 6 months worth of fuel, when the same amount of money will last me for a year at the pump even at $4/gallon.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

Interesting on the candy smell, Godiva has been toying with biodiesel that oddly enough smells like chocolate.

How is that for driving the diesel demand? chose the scent of your fuel, it would add a whole new level of personalization to a vehicle and could be marketed like crazy.

SHELL commercial & GTL synthetic diesel

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