Most USA-Subsidized Biodiesel Is Shipped Overseas

Wobbly · **Posted:** Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:03 pm

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories ... 18946.html
and
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/p ... 0363/1001/

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

I posted about this in the Alternative Fuels section. Kinda destroys the argument about it making biofuels more acceptable to most Americans when they aren't even getting most of the biofuels produced.

The subsidy should be eliminated on any fuel that is sent out of the US market, IMO.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:08 pm

The only place overseas our Biodiesel should be going is to our military. They put their lives at risk, save their lungs.

Steve

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:51 pm

If only there was a separate area for these discussions... :roll:

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:16 pm

This isn't the TDIclub. Stow the holier-than-thou forum badarse attitude. This thread is perfectly fine here, as this is the diesel topic area.

rpapkey · **Joined:** Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:48 pm **Posts:** 39

That sucks no wonder we can't get the stuff here. Also why the price is so bloody high when we do find it.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

On the flip side; it's righting the trade deficit and positions us to be Europe's new OPEC.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:06 am

Oh goody. I'd rather not be the new OPEC. Preferably, our domestically produced fuel should be USED domestically. We should be like Brazil: Don't export a frelling DROP until every need within the country is handled. THEN look at exportation since the country is not reliant on anyone else for it's own energy needs.

We should be also (as a nation and individuals) looking into installation of vertical wind turbines anywhere that there is a building. They are harmless to birds (usually the biggest anti-green-power whine) and take up ONLY their vertical room - like a rotating column. No big rotors or fan blades, and you can stack them taller or layer them out in an array horizontally. In places like Florida where the wind is usually from a single direction (or two mostly-opposite directions) the array could be a straight line crossing that wind direction. Every home could EASILY have 2 or 3 on the roof, providing a sizable chunk of that home's power needs. Not all the needs, but a piece.

But is Florida Plunder and Loot (or any other power pirate) interested in advancing this idea? I think not.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

kcfoxie wrote:

On the flip side; it's righting the trade deficit and positions us to be Europe's new OPEC.

Of course this works against us as long as our production is crop based, ie: water intensive. Namely, Europe would love to deplete our water reserves to feed their energy needs.

On the plus side, Oregon State University has gotten into the extraction of oil from algae field, which is a very positive step forward: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23665943/

Geordie - Rather than micro-generation(ie: wind generators on roofs) which does not really return very much, instead focusing on zero energy home construction would seem more realistic. California does a lot of this and its a combination of net-metering for solar tiles(wind is simply too difficult maintinence wise), low power home appliances, CFL lighting, etc, to attempt to make a home effecitvely 'zero' in terms of its energy footprint. Some good stuff there, and in climates that are not extreme in terms of weather it works well.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

Well, not all of it is crop based.

Seeing as how our co-op was contacted by the EU to become a chicken fat biodiesel exporter for Europe (The fed does NOT give a credit to any biodiesel production facility, it gives the credit to Petrol BLENDERS who put the high-dollar "additive" into their crude product to reduce its emissions). Europe is willing to pay for it, which helps them build more refineries that work on a variety of feedstocks (we went from soy to chicken fat, and the new place will be a WVO processing center, with local grease pick up for restaurants).

I don't like soy-based bio, it's just not practical. It's not bad if you're using it within your farming community and the non-oil part of the soy is used as feed.

On that note, corn feeding cattle should stop. That alone causes more Methane and CO2 production than tripling our number of vehicles on the road today.

Regardless, if you want it here... you have to demand it. Oil companies/gas stations are not going to just start throwing it out there until they see demand. The way it is presently set up, if the biodiesel processing facilities actually got a fuel credit for each gallon of fat or veggie oil turned into a usable fuel, it would likely be selling here. This is why our co-op was like $1.00 more per gallon for Biodiesel back in 2004 when it started. Now it's nearing the $1 cheaper point. All things come full circle.

I agree, bad to farm our product and sell it elsewhere. Europe has come under fire for this, something about cleaning rainforests to grow palm trees for their oil. Now they're calling US Bio refineries that use US Waste streams and turn them into a fuel.

I see it as overly positive: we're cleaning up our waste streams, and europe is investing in our country. Yes, in the short run this seems bad, in the long run this is aide in fixing the economy.

Plus, any well run outfit should be selling fuel to local members in a cooperative environment. Memphis Biofuels does not do this, they only sell to the industry that wants the US Governement tax credit.

Piedmont Biofuels, if NC, was reluctant to sell to Europe, but they wanted to maintain localized and affordable fuel. If they didn't "sell out" to Europe, it might have closed as chicken fat's cost started to rise.

15 years from now, it won't matter. We'll all be on the same fuel, and it might even be GTL from Methane. Shell sent some "Clearing the Air" video to my TiVo this weekend, and it was talking about GTL from natural gas. I don't think any new fuel should come from a 'limited' resource, natural gas to me is a limited resource.

Algae fuel will be the ultimate accomplishment, and we're not too far off from a mass production scale setup.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

All subsidies for bio-fuels (and for new fuel efficiency tech in cars) should be going into the CONSUMER end of the equation, not the production end.

Give consumers a 25 cent per gallon tax credit for using bio, giving the produce certainty of a market.

Don't give the producer a credit for production with no requirement that they sell it in the US. If they can make 10% profit selling it here, or 25% selling it in Europe, of course they are going to ship it overseas.

The tax credit system for consumers who purchased hybrid cars was very successful, and ought to be the model for future programs (with sideboards to make sure the credits are not going to "soft hybrid" GM pickups that get a whopping 19 mpg on the highway).

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:16 pm

geordi wrote:

This isn't the TDIclub. Stow the holier-than-thou forum badarse attitude. This thread is perfectly fine here, as this is the diesel topic area.

No, it is in the Liberty CRD area. There is an area specifically for the alternative fuel 20 page peeing contest this is sure to become.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Goglio704 wrote:

geordi wrote:

This isn't the TDIclub. Stow the holier-than-thou forum badarse attitude. This thread is perfectly fine here, as this is the diesel topic area.

No, it is in the Liberty CRD area. There is an area specifically for the alternative fuel 20 page peeing contest this is sure to become.

Not to be flip or anything, but no one is forcing you to click on it. I started this identical topic in the Alternative Fuel forum and after a couple days it has zero responses. Thats why it ended up posted here(although not by me), posting there dosen't get it any attention by the people who are most involved with it. If you don't want to read it....feel free not to read it.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:45 pm

The fact that it gets more traffic here doesn't mean it belongs here. You're right, I don't have to read it, but the organization here exists for a reason. Otherwise, there would just be one massive area. Since this section only sees drive by moderation, go for it.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:18 pm

Once again, you quote me, and state that since it "won't make a big difference, might as well not do it at all"

Reflex, I've got to ask you seriously: Will a bee sting kill you?

What about 10?

100?

1000? Now we are starting to talk about some serious pain and poison!

Certainly, a 5kw "micro generation" unit won't make a large difference by itself. But the point isn't to affect your neighborhood, its to affect your OWN HOUSE. I figure that my own house uses somewhere around 7kw of power, if I'm using the A/C. The various other large electrical appliances rarely are used at the same time, so I can consider them all as one potential load. The A/C is the main power leech, as it's pretty hot in Florida, unlike the NW where you are.

If I can put together enough solar (I've already figured out how many panels, and its not that many) to generate about 4-5kw, that will put a BIG dent in the drain from the power company. If I can up that to 7kw, my meter should be running backwards most of the time. This isn't speculation, its electrical science. Power generated but not used locally WILL find a drain to flow to, and since the meter is the gate keeper... I will get paid for my power and the system will pay for itself. Adding wind generation to that is only going to help even out the system for when its cloudy.

I don't need a massive system, nor do I need to try and affect more than my own house. But if I do it, and people realize that YES, an individual CAN unplug from sucking on the corporate tit... more will follow and the result will be a big dent. Just like those bee stings. It only takes a few to start a revolution.

Reflex wrote:

kcfoxie wrote:

On the flip side; it's righting the trade deficit and positions us to be Europe's new OPEC.

Of course this works against us as long as our production is crop based, ie: water intensive. Namely, Europe would love to deplete our water reserves to feed their energy needs.

On the plus side, Oregon State University has gotten into the extraction of oil from algae field, which is a very positive step forward: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23665943/

Geordie - Rather than micro-generation(ie: wind generators on roofs) which does not really return very much, instead focusing on zero energy home construction would seem more realistic. California does a lot of this and its a combination of net-metering for solar tiles(wind is simply too difficult maintinence wise), low power home appliances, CFL lighting, etc, to attempt to make a home effecitvely 'zero' in terms of its energy footprint. Some good stuff there, and in climates that are not extreme in terms of weather it works well.

Wobbly · **Posted:** Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

geordi wrote:

This isn't the TDIclub. Stow the holier-than-thou forum badarse attitude. This thread is perfectly fine here, as this is the diesel topic area.

No, it is in the Liberty CRD area. There is an area specifically for the alternative fuel 20 page peeing contest this is sure to become.

You wouldn't be the same Goglio704 who posted in the "Biodiesel MYTH or FACT" thread in the Liberty CRD area would you? Or the Goglio704 who posted in the "Oil Company Biodiesel Politics" thread, also in the CRD area?

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:31 pm

Nope, L.O.S.T made a special exception and allowed that username twice.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Geordi - Whether or not it generates much power isn't the real question, the real question is: Given that a homeowner has a fixed budget(ie: not unlimited funds), would they contribute more to the energy situation by a) buying a tiny roof generator, or b) finally replacing those single pane aluminum frame windows with modern ones? The answer in nearly all cases would be 'b'. And that could go for 'updating the insulation in the walls and attic', 'insulating the floor and pipes', upgrading to energy star appliances, switching to a tankless water system, etc etc. Micro generation on the roof won't generate enough to compare to those solutions, and those solutions can be gradually phased in and add to the home's value and decrease its costs of ownership, which are easy arguments to make for a home owner.

Once someone has everything updated, adding solar panels to the roof isn't a bad idea, but otherwise your simply adding something expensive to offset energy that would be cheaper to offset simply by replacing older inefficiencies.

Cowpie1 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:37 pm

Heck, if anyone would have asked, I could have told you that most biodiesel is shipped overseas. I live 5 miles from one plant and have dealings with several more in Iowa and Minnesota. They are all putting it on tank cars and it is heading for the coast.

Nice to know that all that biofuels endorsement by your tax funded Government is not helping out our situation. Oh well, what's new.

Most USA-Subsidized Biodiesel Is Shipped Overseas

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